One list

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pacman007
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One list

Post by pacman007 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:02 pm

So I have heard that the WestJet mainline pilots have to vote on the one list... so what are the pros and cons for a pilot with the one list? Seems to me the company needs it more than the pilots? If it’s voted down won’t the encore pilots be able to get better wages and working conditions? Just don’t understand why it’s so important to get the one list and surpress wages at the regional?
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SPR
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Re: One list

Post by SPR » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:20 pm

pacman007 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:02 pm
So I have heard that the WestJet mainline pilots have to vote on the one list... so what are the pros and cons for a pilot with the one list? Seems to me the company needs it more than the pilots? If it’s voted down won’t the encore pilots be able to get better wages and working conditions? Just don’t understand why it’s so important to get the one list and surpress wages at the regional?
The advantage for Encore pilots is that they start accruing seniority for an upgrade at mainline as soon as they join Encore, and vacation entitlement is calculated based on start date at Encore. Upgrading three or four years sooner, and thus making captain wages for three or four years longer, will be worth far more in the long run than a dollar or two an hour being added to our current payscale. From what the union said, the company didn't even bring it up during negotiations, so they apparently didn't use it to suppress wages anyway; it's their most valuable recruiting tool at Encore, so they need it to stay in place if they don't want to have to cancel flights due to lack of crews.
For pilots who have already flowed, there's a vested interest in approving the LOU, because if it's rejected they'll at the very least lose vacation entitlement; depending on interpretation of Kaplan's award, they might also drop down in seniority behind any OTS pilots who started before they flowed. The OTS pilots who started since 2014 will almost certainly vote against the LOU to try to improve their own seniority. The wild cards are those who predate Encore, and have no skin in the game: will they acknowledge that Encore pilots accepted lower-paying jobs with the understanding that they would be on the One List, and that ending that arrangement would be a massive middle finger?
If the LOU is voted down by the pilots after being accepted by management, it will create a huge schism between the pilot groups, and I implore everyone to consider what that would do to the company as a whole. Recruitment would dry up, and current pilots will flood out the doors. They can't fill 787s without feed on Q400s, and if flights are being cancelled because Encore doesn't have enough pilots to go around, it's going to severely impact WestJet's finances. Your ESP won't be worth much if the company starts losing money. Pilots who planned on making a career at WestJet will go to AC, Transat, or Sunwing at the first opportunity, and I can't imagine there would be much motivation to engage in cost-saving initiatives anymore. It would be a betrayal of hundreds of your co-workers, and I for one couldn't stand to share a cockpit with someone who had the gall to screw us like that, so I would leave at the first opportunity.
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Mach1
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Re: One list

Post by Mach1 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:39 pm

SPR wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:20 pm
For pilots who have already flowed, there's a vested interest in approving the LOU, because of it's rejected they'll at the very least lose vacation entitlement; depending on interpretation of Kaplan's award, they might also drop down in seniority behind any OTS pilots who started before they flowed.
The award is extremely clear on this matter, all pilots on the WJ pilot list as of the date of the award are grandfathered in at their current position on the list. There is no interpreting this statement.
SPR wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:20 pm
If the LOU is voted down by the pilots after being accepted by management, it will create a huge schism between the pilot groups
Yes it would.
SPR wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:20 pm
They can't fill 787s without feed on Q400s
Can't? Really? The entire 787 passenger load comes from the Encore flights? That is amazing. I wonder what all those 737's and code shares are doing?
SPR wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:20 pm
Recruitment would dry up, and current pilots will flood out the doors..... Your ESP won't be worth much if the company starts losing money. Pilots planned on making a career at WestJet will go to AC, Transat, or Sunwing at the first opportunity
Isn't that already happening?
SPR wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:20 pm
and I for one couldn't stand to share a cockpit with someone who had the gall to screw us like that, so I would leave at the first opportunity.
Let's be honest about this, there are a lot of very bitter Encore pilots already flying with WJ. Not all of them, but a lot of bitter entitled people who feel that they have some how been screwed by being a 737 FO in their mid twenties having already been a Q-400 Captain by an age at which the last group of people were still pushing to get their first job or flying singles around in the north after a few years of ramp work. No matter what the outcome of a vote on the LOU, you will have a far better career than that guy you are sharing the flight deck with has or can (at this point in life) have. Why don't you learn some humility and realize just how lucky you were to win the birth year lottery. Calm down a bit and appreciate just how easy life is going to be for you regardless. Then, maybe people might be more inclined to be kind to you when you appreciate it.
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SPR
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Re: One list

Post by SPR » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:02 pm

No, WestJet can't FILL widebodies without connections. Management was very clear that they started Encore first because they can't fill a 787 without feed.
Mach1 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:39 pm
Let's be honest about this, there are a lot of very bitter Encore pilots already flying with WJ. Not all of them, but a lot of bitter entitled people who feel that they have some how been screwed by being a 737 FO in their mid twenties having already been a Q-400 Captain by an age at which the last group of people were still pushing to get their first job or flying singles around in the north after a few years of ramp work. No matter what the outcome of a vote on the LOU, you will have a far better career than that guy you are sharing the flight deck with has or can (at this point in life) have. Why don't you learn some humility and realize just how lucky you were to win the birth year lottery. Calm down a bit and appreciate just how easy life is going to be for you regardless. Then, maybe people might be more inclined to be kind to you when you appreciate it.
I have no idea what you're on about here. I took a job with certain conditions, and if my co-workers deprive me of those conditions I won't want to work with them anymore. Why would I wait another year or so to flow and start at the bottom of the list again, when I can go to AC now and start working towards an upgrade immediately? Without the One List, my career progression will be severely impacted, and any benefit that I might have gained by staying at Encore will be gone. I'm not going to stay in my position just because other pilots have struggled more than me in the past when there are better opportunities out there; what the hell kind of stupid-ass argument is that? Without the One List, there will not be a single reason to go to, or stay at, Encore if any other airline or regional is hiring.
I accepted the job with the understanding that I would be on the One List. If that changes because of WestJet pilots, then I won't remain at WestJet. It's that simple.
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SPR
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Re: One list

Post by SPR » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:58 pm

To further expand, if you think I'm "entitled" because I want to keep the conditions under which I accepted the job, then you're a dick. Here's an analogy: imagine you accepted a job at a starting wage of $100/hour, and your colleagues voted to reduce your pay to, say, $50/hour. Would you continue working there? If the terms under which I accepted a job change, I would seriously consider whether I wanted to stay in that job. Furthermore, if it were my co-workers who decided to change those terms, rather than management, I could never trust them again. I don't see any way I could remain employed there.
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JBI
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:18 am

Arguing about who is more bitter or entitled provides no benefit to this discussion.

Also, pacman007’s identity/purpose is somewhat suspect. Looking at their post history it seems their only purpose recently is to try and slag WJ/Encore. Before that however, in 2008 he or she was a 705 Capt making “more money with a better schedule” than Jazz. They got the PFO from AC in 2011 and then was very interested in Encore in 2012. They now suggest they hear things from their ‘friends’ at WJ.

Nonetheless, the premise is 'will voting down the one list lead to higher wages at Encore and/or for the entire pilot community as a whole? Simply put: No.

I will be the first to outline that I am an Encore pilot who does stand to gain if the One List gets voted in. However, where I am in my life, I’d also be very happy flying a Q longer term for better money and schedules than I have now. As I mentioned in the YOS discussion, getting 1:1 YOS for Encore pilots simply isn’t a realistic desire, it would be like giving the current Encore pilots a 75% raise. I would happily fly a Q for a 75% raise and not flow (FOs making $75k and Captains making $150k sounds pretty sweet!). But the reality is that the market wouldn’t support those wages.

WestJet’s entire cost structure for Encore is predicated on the idea that an Encore pilot will flow to mainline and not stay a regional Captain for 18+ Years like at Jazz. Getting rid of the “One List” may cause many pilots to leave Encore, but the resulting exodus would be more likely to lead to a fleet reduction and a change of business strategy than a substantial raising of wages. WestJet’s main competitor has used labour certainty as a competitive advantage at the moment. I’m not wanting to start an argument, but Air Canada has been brilliant in their negotiations with pilots. 4 year flat pay for the 1000 or so new hires with a 17 year contract at Jazz. Everyone is locked in - AC knows exactly what its pilot costs are going to be for the foreseeable future and (along with other cost factors) are able to set their airfares competitively.

Just assuming that WestJet can substantially raise wages while its main competitor has a very stable cost structure simply ignores the basics of economics.

I’m not trying to fear monger. Unlike the previous fellow, the new executives at WestJet generally seem to be basing their decisions on reality. But let’s be honest, if you start adding significant costs to the wages at Encore, the equation becomes very different. Suddenly flying in that person from YLW to YYC isn’t profitable even if they hop on a 787 to CDG. Having a solid and cost competitive regional feed is a necessity in a hub and spoke type network as the company hopes to expand into more international flying.

A reduction of flying at Encore would directly lead to a slowing of WB growth. While those 10 787 Options that WJ currently has look like they’ll get less expensive each day the Max is sitting on the ground (Boeing will be looking for ways to limit their losses from this fiasco), it is still necessary to have a solid, affordable regional feed to make running more 787s cost effective.

The Encore TA is impressive for a first CBA. There are improvements in wages, scheduling and a significant reduction in the pay cut that Encore Captains take when flowing to mainline.

While the idea of a mainline pilot voting against the “One List” could seem tempting to both protect certain self interests and/or increase wages at Encore, it is based on some false assumptions. In addition to ‘screwing over’ a significant number of Encore pilots who started at Encore based on the “One List” being available, in the long run, WestJet pilots would be voting against their own self interest.
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flyinhigh
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Re: One list

Post by flyinhigh » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:23 am

I am not going to go deep into this discussion other than to add one question based on history.

Back in the Air Ontario days, the Air Canada pilots and Air Ontario pilots got together to discuss a potential merger of the lists. These discussions fell apart and led to a deep divide between the groups (so much so that these pilots were kicking each other out of there jump seats), a lawsuit ensued which lasted about 15 years.

We finally have the ability to lead the industry and show solidarity as a group.

So I ask, shall we/I repeat history or shall we/I be leaders and show solidarity for the first time?
Mach1 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:39 pm
The award is extremely clear on this matter, all pilots on the WJ pilot list as of the date of the award are grandfathered in at their current position on the list. There is no interpreting this statement.
Mach 1, couldn't agree more, your position and seniority number is grandfathered in. However what was not covered is the vacation allotment which is tied directly to the one list. If you spent 3 years at Encore, flowed to mainline and have only spent 6 months at the mainline, you are at risk of losing your third week of vacation, if this is voted down. Before you argue, go read the seniority provisions of the CBA issued by Kaplan.
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altiplano
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Re: One list

Post by altiplano » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:36 am

It sounds like there are lots of benefits to other groups - encore pilots, management - if Westjet pilots vote in the "one list", but what's in it for them?

There is certainly a large negative effect on current direct hire 737 Westjet pilots. That's huge.

Business model, etc, etc, that's an MBA management problem, not a labour problem... If I were Westjet pilot I'd see this as leverage... There is NO WAY I'd vote Yes for free.

No offence encore pilots, but that's the game, 18 months of service for a 24 year old hired with 1000 hours is nothing in the grand scheme...

If "flow" is so important to the company, let them roll the companies together and merge the list that way... That would be a win for Westjet and Encore pilots.
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mbav8r
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Re: One list

Post by mbav8r » Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:22 am

I’m curious about the timing of the two votes or if they are tied together.
Is the Encore TA contingent on the one list passing?
Or, do Encore pilots know the results of the one list vote prior to casting their vote?
What are the demographics like? How many OTS at WJ, how many who feel the one list should be a bargaining chip?
My gut feeling tells me this will be a very close decision and depending on the answer of timing, will have an outcome on whether or not the TA passes at Encore.
After that, if the one list fails, you only need to look at history to see what happens in the future.
I thought I read somewhere, Encore could operate jets, is that the case?
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DropTanks
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Re: One list

Post by DropTanks » Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:34 am

This whole discussion is a waste of time. It’ll pass. It was always going to pass. Face facts, 80% of the pilots don’t frequent these forums or even the group chats with any regularity or real interest. Run a quick informal poll and most likely the guy will say “sure the One List is important”. End of story. It might not pass by 95% like it would have a year ago because people’s feelings are hurt and they’re desperate to give a middle finger to somebody, anybody. They think that their little mutiny action will somehow re-open negotiations at mainline and cash will rain from the skies for all WJ mainline Pilots. It’s delusional. You know what will happen if we WJ Pilots vote no? Simple, nothing will change at mainline and Encore TA likely gets voted down and they go back to the table for an extra $1/hr or some other token. Don’t forget, management is convinced people will still flock to our doors with resumes regardless of the One List. Truth is the One List isn’t the only reason people go to Encore, it’s a big one but certainly not the only one.
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altiplano
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Re: One list

Post by altiplano » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:55 am

Why do you care about Encore though? Or company recruitment issues? That's not Westjet mainline pilot problems...

What's in it for Westjet pilots is what I'd be asking... Why would you say Yes if there is nothing for you? In fact there is a big negative to people on your list today.
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:04 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:36 am

Business model, etc, etc, that's an MBA management problem, not a labour problem... If I were Westjet pilot I'd see this as leverage... There is NO WAY I'd vote Yes for free.
altiplano wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:55 am
Why do you care about Encore though? Or company recruitment issues? That's not Westjet mainline pilot problems...

What's in it for Westjet pilots is what I'd be asking... Why would you say Yes if there is nothing for you? In fact there is a big negative to people on your list today.
altiplano, I don't disagree with the thought "what's in it for mainline pilots?", but to answer that question, respectfully, business model and costs is very much a labour issue as well as a management issue.

There are a number of reasons why it behooves mainline pilots to vote in favour of the "One List" from the business, labour, moral and self interest perspective. Here are a few in no particular order:

1- From the business perspective, most of the growth and upgrade opportunities at mainline in the next few years will be as a result of widebody growth not purchasing more 737s. A cost effective hub and spoke regional network is necessary to support that growth. With 7 more 787s on order and 10 options, mainline pilots should want all the feed possible to fill those wide bodies. While I don't necessarily suggest that voting against the one list would suddenly mean 787s are getting cancelled, it certainly would add significant uncertainty to the business model if feed costs rose significantly and/or there became recruitment issues. Most 737 Captains and ALL FOs (including OTS who may have Encore pilots in front of them) at mainline's career prospects will improve if there are 20 787s on the property.

2- As discussed in a post above, for all the Encore pilots that have already flowed to mainline, those that flowed prior to the Kaplan award will keep their seniority, but those who have flowed after will lose seniority. However, for ALL the pilots, they do face a reduction in their vacation allotment. So of the 200 or so mainline pilots that have already flowed to mainline, the do stand to lose vacation privileges if they vote against the one list.

3- The mainline union has already used the one list as leverage to a certain extent which is why the TA was released prior to things being finalised. While I don't have any inside information, I would suggest the full details are not appropriate for a public forum. Nonetheless, it is has been used to give the mainline pilots some advantage.

4- Altruistically, I would suggest that Mainline pilots owe it to Encore pilots to vote in favour of the One List. Encore pilots have stood beside mainline pilots with their fight with Management and their unionization. Throughout the process the mainline MEC has assured Encore pilots that they support the one list. The mainline pilots previously showed over 80% support for the one list. When you look at the amount of courting the company has made to get Encore pilots to come fly at Swoop and the resounding rejection by Encore pilots and support that they've given mainline pilots, it would be quite the doublecross to vote against it now.

5- The opposite side of that coin is how do you think things will play out if Mainline Pilots vote against the one list? Do you think Encore pilots will still support them in their dislike of Swoop? While I don't like the working conditions at Swoop anymore than the next guy, if I lose "my" place on the WPDL (WestJet Pilot Department List), suddenly flowing to Swoop looks a lot more appealing. Would I stay long term? Who knows, but the Encore folks flowing right now currently have been on the property for 3 years. In those 3 years, there have been about 115 or so OTS pilots hired behind them. 115 spots can make a bid difference in a career at mainline. Suddenly going to Swoop, getting Jet Time, an immediate raise for FOs and still getting the REIP for Captains starts looking more attractive. What do you think is a better bargaining leverage for mainline pilots: Having a hard time attracting pilots to Swoop or saying no to the one list?

So, while on the surface, it may seem that mainline pilots aren't getting a direct 'benefit' from voting for the "One List", when you dig a little deeper my position is that all WestJet pilots will be better off if the one list survives as it has been since its inception.
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Re: One list

Post by CaptainHaddock » Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:55 pm

JBI wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:04 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:36 am

Business model, etc, etc, that's an MBA management problem, not a labour problem... If I were Westjet pilot I'd see this as leverage... There is NO WAY I'd vote Yes for free.
altiplano wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:55 am
Why do you care about Encore though? Or company recruitment issues? That's not Westjet mainline pilot problems...

What's in it for Westjet pilots is what I'd be asking... Why would you say Yes if there is nothing for you? In fact there is a big negative to people on your list today.
altiplano, I don't disagree with the thought "what's in it for mainline pilots?", but to answer that question, respectfully, business model and costs is very much a labour issue as well as a management issue.

There are a number of reasons why it behooves mainline pilots to vote in favour of the "One List" from the business, labour, moral and self interest perspective. Here are a few in no particular order:

1- From the business perspective, most of the growth and upgrade opportunities at mainline in the next few years will be as a result of widebody growth not purchasing more 737s. A cost effective hub and spoke regional network is necessary to support that growth. With 7 more 787s on order and 10 options, mainline pilots should want all the feed possible to fill those wide bodies. While I don't necessarily suggest that voting against the one list would suddenly mean 787s are getting cancelled, it certainly would add significant uncertainty to the business model if feed costs rose significantly and/or there became recruitment issues. Most 737 Captains and ALL FOs (including OTS who may have Encore pilots in front of them) at mainline's career prospects will improve if there are 20 787s on the property.

2- As discussed in a post above, for all the Encore pilots that have already flowed to mainline, those that flowed prior to the Kaplan award will keep their seniority, but those who have flowed after will lose seniority. However, for ALL the pilots, they do face a reduction in their vacation allotment. So of the 200 or so mainline pilots that have already flowed to mainline, the do stand to lose vacation privileges if they vote against the one list.

3- The mainline union has already used the one list as leverage to a certain extent which is why the TA was released prior to things being finalised. While I don't have any inside information, I would suggest the full details are not appropriate for a public forum. Nonetheless, it is has been used to give the mainline pilots some advantage.

4- Altruistically, I would suggest that Mainline pilots owe it to Encore pilots to vote in favour of the One List. Encore pilots have stood beside mainline pilots with their fight with Management and their unionization. Throughout the process the mainline MEC has assured Encore pilots that they support the one list. The mainline pilots previously showed over 80% support for the one list. When you look at the amount of courting the company has made to get Encore pilots to come fly at Swoop and the resounding rejection by Encore pilots and support that they've given mainline pilots, it would be quite the doublecross to vote against it now.

5- The opposite side of that coin is how do you think things will play out if Mainline Pilots vote against the one list? Do you think Encore pilots will still support them in their dislike of Swoop? While I don't like the working conditions at Swoop anymore than the next guy, if I lose "my" place on the WPDL (WestJet Pilot Department List), suddenly flowing to Swoop looks a lot more appealing. Would I stay long term? Who knows, but the Encore folks flowing right now currently have been on the property for 3 years. In those 3 years, there have been about 115 or so OTS pilots hired behind them. 115 spots can make a bid difference in a career at mainline. Suddenly going to Swoop, getting Jet Time, an immediate raise for FOs and still getting the REIP for Captains starts looking more attractive. What do you think is a better bargaining leverage for mainline pilots: Having a hard time attracting pilots to Swoop or saying no to the one list?

So, while on the surface, it may seem that mainline pilots aren't getting a direct 'benefit' from voting for the "One List", when you dig a little deeper my position is that all WestJet pilots will be better off if the one list survives as it has been since its inception.
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altiplano
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Re: One list

Post by altiplano » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:14 pm

JBI wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:04 pm

altiplano, I don't disagree with the thought "what's in it for mainline pilots?", but to answer that question, respectfully, business model and costs is very much a labour issue as well as a management issue.

There are a number of reasons why it behooves mainline pilots to vote in favour of the "One List" from the business, labour, moral and self interest perspective. Here are a few in no particular order:

1- From the business perspective, most of the growth and upgrade opportunities at mainline in the next few years will be as a result of widebody growth not purchasing more 737s. A cost effective hub and spoke regional network is necessary to support that growth. With 7 more 787s on order and 10 options, mainline pilots should want all the feed possible to fill those wide bodies. While I don't necessarily suggest that voting against the one list would suddenly mean 787s are getting cancelled, it certainly would add significant uncertainty to the business model if feed costs rose significantly and/or there became recruitment issues. Most 737 Captains and ALL FOs (including OTS who may have Encore pilots in front of them) at mainline's career prospects will improve if there are 20 787s on the property.

That's always the type of idea that management and corporate types push... "If you don't vote 'Yes' the sky will fall and we won't grow. We'll make too much money and the company will fold"

Of course that's not true though. There either is the business case or there isn't... whether you're allowing seniority flow or not has nothing to do with that.
Besides, there is no reason they can't merge it all together, eliminating the while need for fliw, solve their recruitment issues, solve pilot YOS & seniority issues, call it all Westjet and move forward. Rather there is ONE reason - they prefer you divided. Would you agree that one list, truly one company, would be better for your entire group?


2- As discussed in a post above, for all the Encore pilots that have already flowed to mainline, those that flowed prior to the Kaplan award will keep their seniority, but those who have flowed after will lose seniority. However, for ALL the pilots, they do face a reduction in their vacation allotment. So of the 200 or so mainline pilots that have already flowed to mainline, the do stand to lose vacation privileges if they vote against the one list.

Fair enough, that is a negative to consider. But what are we talking, a few seniority slots and an extra week of vacation a year or two earlier? When was that Kaplan award? Last fall? Not that much in terms of % of list and minimal negative affect... by the same token you have direct hire guys that will lose seniority, so that's offsets...

3- The mainline union has already used the one list as leverage to a certain extent which is why the TA was released prior to things being finalised. While I don't have any inside information, I would suggest the full details are not appropriate for a public forum. Nonetheless, it is has been used to give the mainline pilots some advantage.

They should keep with that then... if the company wants/needs it, if they show willing to be leveraged on it, get something to give it up... or tell them to put it all under one banner and unite your groups...

4- Altruistically, I would suggest that Mainline pilots owe it to Encore pilots to vote in favour of the One List. Encore pilots have stood beside mainline pilots with their fight with Management and their unionization. Throughout the process the mainline MEC has assured Encore pilots that they support the one list. The mainline pilots previously showed over 80% support for the one list. When you look at the amount of courting the company has made to get Encore pilots to come fly at Swoop and the resounding rejection by Encore pilots and support that they've given mainline pilots, it would be quite the doublecross to vote against it now.

Supporting your colleagues is a good thing. I don't think giving things away to management is supporting the your colleagues or your profession at all though. The best thing mainline pilots could to support Encore pilots is tell the company to bring it all together. Or at least sweeten the deal for all involved... Protecting and improving Mainline, where the long term aspirations of virtually everyone in your pilot group lie should be #1.

5- The opposite side of that coin is how do you think things will play out if Mainline Pilots vote against the one list? Do you think Encore pilots will still support them in their dislike of Swoop? While I don't like the working conditions at Swoop anymore than the next guy, if I lose "my" place on the WPDL (WestJet Pilot Department List), suddenly flowing to Swoop looks a lot more appealing. Would I stay long term? Who knows, but the Encore folks flowing right now currently have been on the property for 3 years. In those 3 years, there have been about 115 or so OTS pilots hired behind them. 115 spots can make a bid difference in a career at mainline. Suddenly going to Swoop, getting Jet Time, an immediate raise for FOs and still getting the REIP for Captains starts looking more attractive. What do you think is a better bargaining leverage for mainline pilots: Having a hard time attracting pilots to Swoop or saying no to the one list?

Isn't Swoop a job on the Mainline list? Aren't they hiring for it off the street anyway? 115 seats now is very few in the larger letting it out of the bag forever picture... and again, I'm not suggesting to say no to your seniority flow, I'm suggesting to extract value for it.


So, while on the surface, it may seem that mainline pilots aren't getting a direct 'benefit' from voting for the "One List", when you dig a little deeper my position is that all WestJet pilots will be better off if the one list survives as it has been since its inception.

Anyway, thanks for your comments, all good perspective. I disagree though that seniority flow will have any affect on the corporate growth and the business model, I disagree allowing seniority flow meaningfully changes costs for the company, I disagree whether or not you go to Swoop changes anything for mainline pilots containment on the issue. I think a truly united group is better, than allowing continued corporate division, but absent that, if the company needs flow, they would be willing to pay for it... I don't think that it's a betrayal of Encore pilots to improve the lot at Mainline by all means available, it only improves where your long term aspirations lie.
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:32 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:14 pm

Anyway, thanks for your comments, all good perspective. I disagree though that seniority flow will have any affect on the corporate growth and the business model, I disagree allowing seniority flow meaningfully changes costs for the company, I disagree whether or not you go to Swoop changes anything for mainline pilots containment on the issue. I think a truly united group is better, than allowing continued corporate division, but absent that, if the company needs flow, they would be willing to pay for it... I don't think that it's a betrayal of Encore pilots to improve the lot at Mainline by all means available, it only improves where your long term aspirations lie.[/color]
Thanks for your comments and respectful disagreement. As an Air Canada pilot you're entitled to your opinions but respectfully, voting down the one list would for me and many other Encore pilots would be considered a betrayal. A couple rebuttals:

1- I'm not trying to say 'the sky is falling' with respect to widebody expansion if the mainline pilots don't vote for the one list. However, it certainly makes the path forward significantly less clearer. When you look at the financial climate, the concerns of investors combined with the revenue and schedule challenges currently having labour stability sooner rather than later does have a pretty profound affect on the company's growth. I disagree with your assertion that "if there's a business case or there isn't" is directly refuted by your company's use of Rouge. Again, not suggesting it's good or bad, but it's not so simple.

2- While there is an argument that the OTS mainline guys stand to gain seniority, I would suggest that (a)- they knew what the situation was with respect to Encore seniority prior to joining and (b)- the uncertainties moving forward and slowing of growth would somewhat offset the seniority gain. Gotta remember the current 737 fleet isn't expected to grow. Most of the Maxes will simply be replacing lease returns.

3- At this point I would argue that there's not much else the mainline pilots could get with using the one list as leverage. Again, not much else I can/should go into on a public forum.

4- In theory a unified list is a great thing. And while I don't for a second defend the mess that the company (and it's previous President and Ops Director) made, it's not something that can be simply rectified by holding out on a one list. If anything, getting the one list solidified would continue to move things forward in that direction.

5- I stand to be corrected, and I have no doubt that there's still room for improvement, but I don't think most of the mainline pilots are exceptionally angry about the current mainline wages and working conditions. They are implementing trips and duty RIGS (SLOWLY), Years of Service is coming (meaning most of the Captains will be getting somewhat significant raises next year) and when the FOs finally do upgrade at mainline, their wages will be higher. The biggest frustration is the feeling that Swoop has severely limited growth and upgrade opportunities for mainline pilots as the wages and working conditions are so poor that even though it's technically a position on the seniority list, almost no WestJet mainline pilots have bid on them.

Further to that, while Swoop is now a position on the seniority list, the positions are so low that Encore pilots can hold any position (including direct entry Captain if they meet the experience requirements). There have been a small number who have gone, but the vast majority of Encore pilots support the mainline pilot's in wanting the requirements at Swoop to be improved.

However, in the short term, voting against the one list will have a significant negative effect on the Encore pilots. While it's ok for the mainline pilots to ask "what's in it for me", I think if Encore pilots lost the One List, it's completely ok for them to ask "what's now best for me?" With the loss of the One List, a pink 737 with higher wages than what most currently make on the Q starts to look more attractive.

In my previous career as a lawyer I was involved in numerous negotiations and mediations. While I 100% agree with using what leverage you have to better your position, even if I didn't have a personal interest in the matter, I would suggest that 1- the One List vote doesn't actually provide the perceived leverage that you're suggesting and 2- it would be detrimental to all WestJet pilots in the long run.
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Re: One list

Post by altiplano » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:20 pm

Again, I'm not saying vote it down.

I'm saying extract value for it.


As for Rouge, that is exactly what I'm talking about. Some guys bought it that all the planes were going back, the company was going to stop flying to the Caribbean and Mexico and Florida, stop flying to Rome and Athens and Hawaii... of course that's not true. Rouge was a wedge, and divided the pilots. They could have repainted and densified and done it with the same list of guys, in fact it would have been cheaper with better economies of scale, less management, more flexibility... but now we've spent the last 6 years running in circles trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube...

Anyway, I won't steer your thread off the rails any further... but don't give the company anything they need for free... They certainly won't do you any favours.

You've got your contracts and it's not your problem! Good luck!
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Re: One list

Post by 180 » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:41 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:22 am
I’m curious about the timing of the two votes or if they are tied together.
Is the Encore TA contingent on the one list passing?
Or, do Encore pilots know the results of the one list vote prior to casting their vote?
What are the demographics like? How many OTS at WJ, how many who feel the one list should be a bargaining chip?
My gut feeling tells me this will be a very close decision and depending on the answer of timing, will have an outcome on whether or not the TA passes at Encore.
After that, if the one list fails, you only need to look at history to see what happens in the future.
I thought I read somewhere, Encore could operate jets, is that the case?
The Encore TA vote closes on Thursday May 2nd, and the Westjet One-List vote isn’t supposed to open until “sometime next week”, so no, the Encore TA vote is not contingent on the one-list vote. The Encore TA will be done and closed before the one-list vote even opens.

I’ve got my money on the Encore TA passing and the one-list getting approved by the Westjet pilot group. Both votes only need 50% plus 1 of voter turnout to pass, and I’ve got my money on them both passing.

It’s time to put all this unrest and confusion and uncertainty behind us and move forward together with positivity as a collective group.

The negativity, low morale, distrust of past management and never ending negotiations and emails has been a huge energy suck these last few years.

I for one am looking forward to this all being in the rear view mirror in the very near future.
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Re: One list

Post by Mach1 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:27 am

I see a post filled with anger and bitterness and decided it needed to be called out. I sometimes wonder what the Encore people have been told because there are often expectations that are not anywhere in the agreements and a lot of anger because "promises" are not being kept.

JBI: Your post is filled with reason and is well stated. It was nice to see that the company negotiated and that most seem happy with the resulting TA. An improvement over the WJ contract fiasco.

flyinhigh: I am less certain about vacation awards but I would suspect you would keep your current award as it would be more difficult to alter that agreement than to honour it.

My point, everyone will actually be fine regardless of outcome. Just some outcomes are better than others on an individual basis... but all outcomes are good. This is a much better era than just 5 years ago.

DropTanks is correct.
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Re: One list

Post by SPR » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:55 am

Mach1 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:27 am
I see a post filled with anger and bitterness and decided it needed to be called out. I sometimes wonder what the Encore people have been told because there are often expectations that are not anywhere in the agreements and a lot of anger because "promises" are not being kept.
If you're referring to my post, I'm neither bitter or angry, but I am concerned; I've been on the WestJet Pilot Department List since the day I was hired, and if the LOU is voted down I'll feel like the rug has been pulled out from under me. I joined Encore because I thought I would be accruing seniority at WestJet throughout my time here, and that the rest of my career was secure. I passed on an opportunity to join an airline where I could have flown jets and started moving up the seniority list a year ago because I was already on my way at WestJet; I don't care if I fly a Q400 or a 737, but I do care about my wealth, and without the One List I'm going to lose a lot of money by staying at Encore. If the LOU is voted down, I'll have to wait at least another year to even start gaining seniority once I flow, so please, do explain to me why I shouldn't immediately go to AC, Sunwing, Transat, or overseas where I can start gaining seniority without waiting for flow?
The WestJet pilot MEC has already used the One List as a bargaining chip, so everyone at mainline has already benefitted from it. If you now vote it down because you don't think that you're going to gain from it further, and the only reason you would support it is because you want direct compensation, then you took advantage of Encore pilots and you're throwing them in the trash now that you're done with them. Supporting the LOU just maintains the status quo, and voting it down is a huge middle finger to Encore pilots.
As for the business case, if Encore is running thin with 550 pilots, how well do you think it will do when 450 leave? Like I said, if we lose our standing at WestJet, there's really nothing else holding us here when every other airline is hiring, especially if we feel like we've been betrayed. Forget the widebodies; if there's no regional feed, do you really think the company can fill 122 737s every day? Without connections from Moncton and Fort St John, those jets are going to have substantially lower load factors.
Supporting the LOU doesn't change the current situation, but rejecting it because you don't personally gain from it will be shooting yourself in the foot in the long term.
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Re: One list

Post by George Taylor » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:16 am

Hey SPR there are lots of tissues in the jet, looks like you could use some. Sounds like a lot of fun being with you on a 4 day. It's not your fellow pilots that you should be angry with.
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Re: One list

Post by SPR » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:49 am

George Taylor wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:16 am
Hey SPR there are lots of tissues in the jet, looks like you could use some. Sounds like a lot of fun being with you on a 4 day. It's not your fellow pilots that you should be angry with.
If pilots deprive me of my current standing on the One List, then that's exactly who I'll be angry with. Who else would be responsible?
Since Mach1 didn't bother to answer this question, I'll pose it to you too:
Here's an analogy: imagine you accepted a job at a starting wage of $100/hour, and your colleagues voted to reduce your pay to, say, $50/hour. Would you continue working there?
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Re: One list

Post by JTrain » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:39 am

Voting no.

I welcome the Encore pilots to the WJ seniority list. Respect and appreciation for everything they do for Team Teal. Spent too many years of my career as a regional aviator and I know full well the challenges and demands of what the WEN pilots do on a daily basis.

But if management wants to add pilots to the WJA seniority list, I expect something in return. If they need a recruitment tool for Encore, there are ways they can sweeten the pot for WJ pilots for us to sign off on it, even if we are talking non-monetary compensation. As in get rid of Swoop. Or improve Swoop work rules / condititions.

FWIW, I expect the vote to be a 'Yes.' SPR - don't give yourself a heart attack.
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Re: One list

Post by SPR » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:10 pm

JTrain wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:39 am
But if management wants to add pilots to the WJA seniority list, I expect something in return.
Encore pilots are already on the seniority list. Go look at the one posted on April 1. You're making a conscious decision to deprive us of something we already have, because it doesn't benefit you personally. Even after your MEC used it as a bargaining chip to get you improvements, that's not enough...
We have one small benefit in working at Encore over other regionals, and some mainline pilots want to take it away from us because they're so selfish that they want to get even more for themselves. Unbelievable...
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Re: One list

Post by mmm..bacon » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:09 pm

^ Let me guess: millennial on your second job in aviation?

Thus has it ever been: pilots would screw over their mothers for career/seat/monetary advantage. Why do you think that starting salaries at major airlines are so poor? Because pilots in a position to to something about it have consistently voted for their own interests rather than those of the group.
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Re: One list

Post by altiplano » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:36 pm

SPR wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:55 am
If the LOU is voted down, I'll have to wait at least another year to even start gaining seniority once I flow, so please, do explain to me why I shouldn't immediately go to AC, Sunwing, Transat, or overseas where I can start gaining seniority without waiting for flow?
You mean you haven't you already applied?
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