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bob99
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Re: One list

Post by bob99 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:47 pm

SPR wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:10 pm
JTrain wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:39 am
But if management wants to add pilots to the WJA seniority list, I expect something in return.
Encore pilots are already on the seniority list. Go look at the one posted on April 1. You're making a conscious decision to deprive us of something we already have, because it doesn't benefit you personally. Even after your MEC used it as a bargaining chip to get you improvements, that's not enough...
We have one small benefit in working at Encore over other regionals, and some mainline pilots want to take it away from us because they're so selfish that they want to get even more for themselves. Unbelievable...
Just as he said,
1- Encore pilots were already on the seniority list, and
2- The WJ Mec did already hold it hostage in order to make certain gains at mainline.
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Re: One list

Post by FISH-FLY » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:52 pm

If WJ Mainline pilots had already extracted gains based on allowing Encore pilots to continue on as members of the WPDL, why is there a vote now to solidify this? Would WJ management not have already ensured this result if they had indeed given up concessions for it during mainline negots? Genuine question, not trying to stir the pot (well, maybe a little bit...).
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Re: One list

Post by George Taylor » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:15 pm

SPR wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:10 pm
JTrain wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:39 am
But if management wants to add pilots to the WJA seniority list, I expect something in return.
Even after your MEC used it as a bargaining chip to get you improvements, that's not enough...
Ummm, SPR what exactly did the WJ MEC gain in regards to the one list? As others have said the company could have solidified this a long time ago.
You're entitled snowflake threat of a temper tantrum doesn't bode well for any sympathy.
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Re: One list

Post by Demeter » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:41 pm

Voting yes to this is a no brainer as it makes the pilots unified and content vs a divisive group. Industry leading really. It only strengthens us and the company. WJ has to wait for the encore TA to wrap up is my guess and glad the WJ MEC has stopped playing games to get this rolled out.
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:40 pm

FISH-FLY wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:52 pm
If WJ Mainline pilots had already extracted gains based on allowing Encore pilots to continue on as members of the WPDL, why is there a vote now to solidify this? Would WJ management not have already ensured this result if they had indeed given up concessions for it during mainline negots? Genuine question, not trying to stir the pot (well, maybe a little bit...).
George Taylor wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:15 pm

Ummm, SPR what exactly did the WJ MEC gain in regards to the one list? As others have said the company could have solidified this a long time ago.
To answer these questions, in an appropriate manner on a public forum, it is important to understand a quick history of how we got to where we are. I've noticed "George Taylor's" previous references to "An orange little man" and would agree that he takes most of the blame for this mess. Nonetheless, Federal Labour Laws apply and in order to improve the situation for both the WestJet, Encore and Swoop pilots there are certain things that, while seeming like common sense, simply couldn't be done because WJ & Encore were two separate bargaining units and the unions have different duties of care to its members. (As an aside, that's why previous Encore employees that have flowed aren't eligible for the newly negotiated top up pay after flow - The Encore Union can only negotiate an agreement for their current members at the time of the agreement).

During the initial mainline ALPA and company negotiations, there wasn't an opportunity to negotiate the One List due to duty of care issues (the mainline negotiating committee has to negotiate in good faith for its current members). In addition, the Kaplan award wasn't a negotiation - it was an arbitrated agreement. The union and the company agreed to binding arbitration and that's what they got. There wasn't a situation where the company and the union could agree to a specific policy regarding seniority of members not currently in the bargaining unit.

Unfortunately, some aspects of the arbitrated award are taking longer to implement than most had hoped. I completely share the frustrations of the mainline pilots regarding this. The mainline MEC has used the One List to try and hasten the implementation of some of these items and my understanding is that they have been successful. However, while agreed to in principle by all parties, the One List is not something that the company desperately needs (in fact the skeptic in me would say that if the mainline pilots vote against the one list, the company will benefit because the pilot groups now become pitted against each other and not directly by the actions of the company). The company is not going to re-open the arbitrated contract solely for the one list so respectfully, anyone who thinks that the mainline union can use the One List as leverage to improve the conditions at Swoop are severely overestimating their bargaining position. However, the situation now is that with the agreement of a majority of the members, the mainline union can agree to now honour the One List and continue to build unity within the pilot group.

While the are younger pilots at Encore, the more senior ones that stand to lose the most if the One List is voted down are the ones who are in their 30s or 40s, have a family who made the move to Encore because of flow / one list with mainline. This was a term of employment with Encore prior to unionizing (not just a mere promise).

It sucks that we're not all one pilot group yet. I'm hopeful that that is something we can work for. If I honestly thought it was possible I'd be saying so (See my posts from before the groups unionized on why there would be some benefit to the Encore pilots NOT unionizing so that the "single employer" remedy could be available - even though I am and was in favour of unionizing), but at the moment, with three separate companies, two unions, widebodies on the way, Maxes grounded in addition to some challenging financial times, mainline pilots voting for the One List is the next step going forward.
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Re: One list

Post by Mr. North » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:12 pm

This thread is rife with entitlement and cynicism. I find it extremely disappointing (although not surprising) that some pilots here cannot look out onto the horizon beyond their own narrow self interest.

For generations the career of a pilot has been defined by years of toil and sweat, rare hiring booms and abrupt economic downturns, steep training bonds and low pay, bankruptcies and messy mergers. Despite each pilots unique singular journey through their career, the underlying theme remains the same. That the vigor of our youth and passion is exploited for all its worth by a fickle, indifferent industry. Who among us then would have passed on the first opportunity to improve upon our own standing or station in life? If we were presented with the opportunities that are now afforded to those preceding us, would we not have acted on them just as they are? It would behoove some of us to climb down from the haughty perch of "dues paying" and "hardship" and realize that new pilots are no more entitled than they are victims of circumstance.

The pilot shortage is real and will become more acute within the next few years. Despite unparalleled growth, annual ATPL's issued by TC have remained unchanged for the past ten years at roughly 580 (with 20% issued to foreigners). Air Canada alone will hire this annual equivalent for the next couple of years, nevermind the other carriers or those south of the border. As we have seen, employment requirements that once demanded thousands of hours and a colorful combination of types, ratings, and connections, have been stripped down to a few hundred hours and a heartbeat. FTU's cater to rich foreign students and their instructors are gone almost as soon as they are hired. There is no influx of youth pouring in to fulfill the gaps in retirements, FRMS, etc..

The largest opportunity our profession has encountered in modern history is nearly upon us. How best do we approach it? On a unified front seeking improvements for all pilots? Or divided in groups taking an immature satisfaction in undercutting one another because of generational differences in experience and circumstance?

For a profession regularly buffeted by external events, rarely do we enjoy any level of self determination. The WestJet pilots have at hand such an opportunity. At little personal consequence, will they demonstrate good airmanship and shepard their youth who have been ardent supporters since their inception? Or, with the same petty indifference perhaps once shown to them, do they cast Encore pilots adrift? Tragically creating the largest fracture pilots have seen in a generation and likely one not soon forgotten.

Four years will come and go. If I were a WestJet pilot I'd focus less on holding someone's seniority hostage and consider instead how best to position the pilot group to capitalize on the opportunities unfolding on the horizon.
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Re: One list

Post by tps8903 » Wed May 01, 2019 5:48 am

Mr. North wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:12 pm
This thread is rife with entitlement and cynicism. I find it extremely disappointing (although not surprising) that some pilots here cannot look out onto the horizon beyond their own narrow self interest.

For generations the career of a pilot has been defined by years of toil and sweat, rare hiring booms and abrupt economic downturns, steep training bonds and low pay, bankruptcies and messy mergers. Despite each pilots unique singular journey through their career, the underlying theme remains the same. That the vigor of our youth and passion is exploited for all its worth by a fickle, indifferent industry. Who among us then would have passed on the first opportunity to improve upon our own standing or station in life? If we were presented with the opportunities that are now afforded to those preceding us, would we not have acted on them just as they are? It would behoove some of us to climb down from the haughty perch of "dues paying" and "hardship" and realize that new pilots are no more entitled than they are victims of circumstance.

The pilot shortage is real and will become more acute within the next few years. Despite unparalleled growth, annual ATPL's issued by TC have remained unchanged for the past ten years at roughly 580 (with 20% issued to foreigners). Air Canada alone will hire this annual equivalent for the next couple of years, nevermind the other carriers or those south of the border. As we have seen, employment requirements that once demanded thousands of hours and a colorful combination of types, ratings, and connections, have been stripped down to a few hundred hours and a heartbeat. FTU's cater to rich foreign students and their instructors are gone almost as soon as they are hired. There is no influx of youth pouring in to fulfill the gaps in retirements, FRMS, etc..

The largest opportunity our profession has encountered in modern history is nearly upon us. How best do we approach it? On a unified front seeking improvements for all pilots? Or divided in groups taking an immature satisfaction in undercutting one another because of generational differences in experience and circumstance?

For a profession regularly buffeted by external events, rarely do we enjoy any level of self determination. The WestJet pilots have at hand such an opportunity. At little personal consequence, will they demonstrate good airmanship and shepard their youth who have been ardent supporters since their inception? Or, with the same petty indifference perhaps once shown to them, do they cast Encore pilots adrift? Tragically creating the largest fracture pilots have seen in a generation and likely one not soon forgotten.

Four years will come and go. If I were a WestJet pilot I'd focus less on holding someone's seniority hostage and consider instead how best to position the pilot group to capitalize on the opportunities unfolding on the horizon.
Eloquintly written. Every once in a while someone cuts through the drivel on this site an makes a statement worth reading. Well done.

Shout out to my man JBI for keeping it real as well.
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Re: One list

Post by bob99 » Wed May 01, 2019 6:14 am

tps8903 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:48 am
Mr. North wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:12 pm
This thread is rife with entitlement and cynicism. I find it extremely disappointing (although not surprising) that some pilots here cannot look out onto the horizon beyond their own narrow self interest.

For generations the career of a pilot has been defined by years of toil and sweat, rare hiring booms and abrupt economic downturns, steep training bonds and low pay, bankruptcies and messy mergers. Despite each pilots unique singular journey through their career, the underlying theme remains the same. That the vigor of our youth and passion is exploited for all its worth by a fickle, indifferent industry. Who among us then would have passed on the first opportunity to improve upon our own standing or station in life? If we were presented with the opportunities that are now afforded to those preceding us, would we not have acted on them just as they are? It would behoove some of us to climb down from the haughty perch of "dues paying" and "hardship" and realize that new pilots are no more entitled than they are victims of circumstance.

The pilot shortage is real and will become more acute within the next few years. Despite unparalleled growth, annual ATPL's issued by TC have remained unchanged for the past ten years at roughly 580 (with 20% issued to foreigners). Air Canada alone will hire this annual equivalent for the next couple of years, nevermind the other carriers or those south of the border. As we have seen, employment requirements that once demanded thousands of hours and a colorful combination of types, ratings, and connections, have been stripped down to a few hundred hours and a heartbeat. FTU's cater to rich foreign students and their instructors are gone almost as soon as they are hired. There is no influx of youth pouring in to fulfill the gaps in retirements, FRMS, etc..

The largest opportunity our profession has encountered in modern history is nearly upon us. How best do we approach it? On a unified front seeking improvements for all pilots? Or divided in groups taking an immature satisfaction in undercutting one another because of generational differences in experience and circumstance?

For a profession regularly buffeted by external events, rarely do we enjoy any level of self determination. The WestJet pilots have at hand such an opportunity. At little personal consequence, will they demonstrate good airmanship and shepard their youth who have been ardent supporters since their inception? Or, with the same petty indifference perhaps once shown to them, do they cast Encore pilots adrift? Tragically creating the largest fracture pilots have seen in a generation and likely one not soon forgotten.

Four years will come and go. If I were a WestJet pilot I'd focus less on holding someone's seniority hostage and consider instead how best to position the pilot group to capitalize on the opportunities unfolding on the horizon.
Eloquintly written. Every once in a while someone cuts through the drivel on this site an makes a statement worth reading. Well done.

Shout out to my man JBI for keeping it real as well.
Fully agree!
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Re: One list

Post by neophyte » Wed May 01, 2019 9:25 pm

Nicely stated Mr North.


Let's not forget that WJ pilots wanted one list when they gave consent for the creation of Encore. More recently while surveying for the contract negots, the question of one-list was posed again (with 90% support). I wonder who those 10% were? What has changed since then? Not much besides a lacklustre, arbitrated contract! Who’s fault is that? Why should that change how you once felt about one list? These are the questions you have to ask yourself.

I have flown with WEN flow throughs and OTS pilots. Both are highly competent and glad to be at WJA. One thing is for sure though, during the formalities and small talk of day 1 of a pairing it quickly becomes evident that the OTS pilots feel happy to have avoided encore. And that’s great for them. They had no interest working their way through the WEN system and they didn’t want to fly the Q. They wanted the jet and all of the fancy places it flies, not to mention reaching the higher earning potential faster. Heck, some were even given the choice - Go to WEN or wait for the next WJA class?

Ladies and gentleman, when you make a choice in life, you can’t cry foul when you don’t like the outcome. It seems many of the OTS pilots have gone from “winning the lottery” to “crying the blues” about those darn WEN pilots pushing them down the list. News flash, the WEN pilots were always in front of you, they were just at WEN making peanuts and working their butts off. If you didn’t know about the premise of one list before you were hired then you didn’t do your homework.

Altipino... you keep saying extract value for the one list yet you haven’t stated one thing that the company could offer for it. What is extractable for one-list? $1 premiuim on the per diem? an extra week of vacation? Fully funded healthcare in retirement? It’s not THAT big of an item. As previously mentioned, it’s already been leveraged.

It’s time to finish what we started and lock down the one-list. Having everyone on the same page will be a Canadian aviation first.

Stay safe out there!
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Re: One list

Post by altiplano » Thu May 02, 2019 6:19 am

Again I'm not against it. But I would be against doing anything for free.

Clearly it hasn't been leveraged, you haven't extracted any value on it if you are talking about it going to a vote with nothing coming in return.

I'm sure your ALPA resources could accurately cost out a value for you to target. I'm not sure how much it is, but it ain't nothing...

You say it's not a big item, and perhaps it isn't, but the fact is your contract is made of all kinds of little things... and every one of them you have to fight to get and hold onto, conversely every one of them the company will analyze how to interpret and leverage against you... if you start a practise of giving away and not worrying about all the little things in this business you'll find yourself under a pile of them.

Maybe there is a "not that big of an item" in your contract that needs to be fixed... this sounds like a golden time to address that.

You could possibly even target it as an improvement for pilots across the organization at both mainline and the regional.

Personally, I think attracting and retaining qualified pilots at the regional is a fairly big item... putting the seniority handcuffs on certainly makes one think twice before leaving. At 30K for a type rating, and how many it may project to retain over the next 5 years? 15? in perpetuity of your operation and during a time of shortage... that's a lot of cake it will save the company and I'd want a little slice of that...
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Re: One list

Post by pacman007 » Thu May 02, 2019 11:34 am

Wow never would have thought pilots would vote against the one list! Jazz pilots would love to have the one list!
So what happens to the pilots who have flowed over the last 2 years? You guys really have created a mess over there! Good luck
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Re: One list

Post by bob99 » Thu May 02, 2019 11:50 am

pacman007 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:34 am
Wow never would have thought pilots would vote against the one list! Jazz pilots would love to have the one list!
So what happens to the pilots who have flowed over the last 2 years? You guys really have created a mess over there! Good luck
It is surprising that anyone would vote against it, other than the OTS hires who were hired in the last couple years, obviously. Some people are upset with management and for some reason they think that giving the middle finger to the Encore pilots will help them. It won't.

Anyone that flowed in the last two years prior to Jan 1st would keep their seniority, but lose a week of vacation. Anyone that flowed after Jan 1 would lose their seniority and a week of vacation.
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Re: One list

Post by pacman007 » Thu May 02, 2019 12:08 pm

well if I was Westjet management I would just laugh and let the pilots be pitted against one another! if the Westjet pilots think they are going to stick it to management by dividing the group they are frankly...a little crazy. union busting and negotiation 101 is divide then conquer and if the pilots do that to themselves its just sad...also you said OTS hires would obviously vote NO..but if everyone hired before jan 1st position on the list won't change what is the benifit for the OTS pilots to vote no...isnt there position the same no matter if the list is voted in or not?? just don't get it
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Re: One list

Post by George Taylor » Thu May 02, 2019 1:43 pm

There seems to be this line of thinking that the WJ pilots should be compensated for voting yes, as it’s a tool for the company to attract pilots to Encore at a substandard wage. I don’t see the company or the Angry Grandpa giving two shits which way we vote. We won’t extract anything with this perceived leverage. I find it strange that it’s coming from the most senior on the list. Either way the vote goes down the company wins. Out played again.
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Re: One list

Post by George Taylor » Thu May 02, 2019 1:56 pm

I must admit I didn’t look at the lay-off language.
Totally a one way street. WJ pilots can’t take Encore jobs during layoffs. If their on the list and can stay, while senior guys get laid off (on the same list) that sucks.
This is a new change to the previous language. Now I can see the NO side.
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Re: One list

Post by Blue42 » Thu May 02, 2019 2:47 pm

George Taylor wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:56 pm
I must admit I didn’t look at the lay-off language.
Totally a one way street. WJ pilots can’t take Encore jobs during layoffs. If their on the list and can stay, while senior guys get laid off (on the same list) that sucks.
This is a new change to the previous language. Now I can see the NO side.
☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

That right there is a “NO” vote!!!!!

One list should be one list!!
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Thu May 02, 2019 5:49 pm

Blue42 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:47 pm
George Taylor wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:56 pm
I must admit I didn’t look at the lay-off language.
Totally a one way street. WJ pilots can’t take Encore jobs during layoffs. If their on the list and can stay, while senior guys get laid off (on the same list) that sucks.
This is a new change to the previous language. Now I can see the NO side.
☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

That right there is a “NO” vote!!!!! One list should be one list!!
So have you actually read your (mainline) Collective Agreement? You do realize that mainline has significantly more robust scope and anti lay-off clauses than Encore, correct? The separate lists for lay-offs clause actually PROTECTS mainline and Swoop guys BELOW Encore pilots from being laid off.

Check out the Scope section 1-1.05 of the mainline working agreement. Seriously, read through things and ask questions before you start posting stuff on AvCanada.

pacman007 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:08 pm
well if I was Westjet management I would just laugh and let the pilots be pitted against one another! if the Westjet pilots think they are going to stick it to management by dividing the group they are frankly...a little crazy. union busting and negotiation 101 is divide then conquer and if the pilots do that to themselves its just sad...also you said OTS hires would obviously vote NO..but if everyone hired before jan 1st position on the list won't change what is the benifit for the OTS pilots to vote no...isnt there position the same no matter if the list is voted in or not?? just don't get it
This I generally agree with. If mainline folks think that they are teaching the company a lesson by voting "no" they are seriously misunderstanding the situation.

I would argue that if you ask almost any mainline pilot what their biggest complaint about their new CA is the answer would be Swoop. Well here's the thing, if an Encore Captain who loses his/her seniority they now have a lot more to gain now by going to Swoop. In fact, (with VERY rough calculations) if they upgrade after two years at Swoop (which most Encore Captains would be eligible to do), they stand to make over $80,000 more total during their first 6 years after flowing than if they just went to mainline and became an FO. Sure the conditions at Swoop are not good, but making more money, flying a jet, having control over your base and STILL getting LOS starts looking more attractive.

So honestly, do mainline pilots think that they'll have more leverage with the company by saying no to the One List and thus making Swoop a more attractive destination for a number of Encore pilots?
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Re: One list

Post by George Taylor » Thu May 02, 2019 7:05 pm

[quote=JBI post_id=1076935 time=1556844589 user_id=363
Seriously, read through things and ask questions before you start posting stuff on AvCanada
[/quote]

Hey, Mein Kampf, I’ll take the same liberties as you and post whatever I want, and participate as I see fit.
The language was there before and now it’s not.

Sieg Heil
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan » Thu May 02, 2019 8:44 pm

JBI wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 5:49 pm
Blue42 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:47 pm
George Taylor wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:56 pm
I must admit I didn’t look at the lay-off language.
Totally a one way street. WJ pilots can’t take Encore jobs during layoffs. If their on the list and can stay, while senior guys get laid off (on the same list) that sucks.
This is a new change to the previous language. Now I can see the NO side.
☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

That right there is a “NO” vote!!!!! One list should be one list!!
So have you actually read your (mainline) Collective Agreement? You do realize that mainline has significantly more robust scope and anti lay-off clauses than Encore, correct? The separate lists for lay-offs clause actually PROTECTS mainline and Swoop guys BELOW Encore pilots from being laid off.

Check out the Scope section 1-1.05 of the mainline working agreement. Seriously, read through things and ask questions before you start posting stuff on AvCanada.

pacman007 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:08 pm
well if I was Westjet management I would just laugh and let the pilots be pitted against one another! if the Westjet pilots think they are going to stick it to management by dividing the group they are frankly...a little crazy. union busting and negotiation 101 is divide then conquer and if the pilots do that to themselves its just sad...also you said OTS hires would obviously vote NO..but if everyone hired before jan 1st position on the list won't change what is the benifit for the OTS pilots to vote no...isnt there position the same no matter if the list is voted in or not?? just don't get it
This I generally agree with. If mainline folks think that they are teaching the company a lesson by voting "no" they are seriously misunderstanding the situation.

I would argue that if you ask almost any mainline pilot what their biggest complaint about their new CA is the answer would be Swoop. Well here's the thing, if an Encore Captain who loses his/her seniority they now have a lot more to gain now by going to Swoop. In fact, (with VERY rough calculations) if they upgrade after two years at Swoop (which most Encore Captains would be eligible to do), they stand to make over $80,000 more total during their first 6 years after flowing than if they just went to mainline and became an FO. Sure the conditions at Swoop are not good, but making more money, flying a jet, having control over your base and STILL getting LOS starts looking more attractive.

So honestly, do mainline pilots think that they'll have more leverage with the company by saying no to the One List and thus making Swoop a more attractive destination for a number of Encore pilots?
Pretty much this. --^

If WJ pilots reneg on the one-list because they are angry at the company, or think it wasn't leveraged enough during the negotiations, or they just wanna have something to vote no to, they better think about what, exactly, is stopping Encore folks from bidding on every single swoop vacancy that comes up.

You want to give swoop a steady stream of willing supplicants? Kill the Encore pilot's position on the wj list by voting no. The quickest way for them to get back on the list is to come in via Swoop. Sure, a bunch may quit, but a lot will stay and go to swoop. Have a look at the past few Swoop bids. They haven't even been able to fill captain vacancies and are now looking for DEC off the street again. Encore fos were getting Swoop Cap positions.

The quickest way to end this swoop nightmare is to choke it out from attracting talent. You erase encore pilots from the wj lisi, they now have an incentive to bid on swoop.
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan » Thu May 02, 2019 9:14 pm

.
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Fri May 03, 2019 2:04 am

George Taylor wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:05 pm

Hey, Mein Kampf, I’ll take the same liberties as you and post whatever I want, and participate as I see fit.
The language was there before and now it’s not.

Sieg Heil
My comment was aimed more at the poster responding to your post with an emphatic "that should be a NO vote!" (with five exclamation points and a bunch of finger emojis). Lay Offs and status are an important issue and getting a full understanding of the situation is important. I'll be the first to admit that the wording isn't very clear. Nonetheless, calling someone "my fight" and somewhat alluding to being a nazi for suggesting that folks read through their contract and get clarification on items they are not certain about is not really appropriate. I would also suggest it's not historically accurate either - the nazi's historical legacy isn't for making rational informed decisions...

Hopefully someone can post this clarification on the WJ ALPA forum. As an Encore pilot I do not have access to it. Because the mainline CA covers both Swoop and mainline whereas the Encore TA covers only Encore things are quite confusing.

In the mainline CA, Section 1-1 deals with Scope.

Section 1-1.03 provides a max amount of regional aircraft at "WestJet Encore and/or through a CPA or similar arrangement"

Section 1-1.04 provides that Swoop can operate up to 30 NB aircraft (without additional mainline capacity)

Section 1-1.05 is the important one where (a) there will be 90% of active WJ pilot positions and (b) No pilot shall be laid off as a direct result of a number of different commercial agreements.

While the Encore TA does have some similar language in section 2-4.01, it is less robust. There is no numbers of aircraft scope and there are significantly less types of commercial relationships specified that the company cannot use to affect lay-offs.

So, while hopefully no one at any of WJ/Swoop/Encore will have to deal with lay-offs, it would generally be much easier for the company to start with lay-offs at Encore than at mainline or Swoop.

BUT, if we have one-list for both flow AND lay-offs, there could potentially be Encore pilots more senior than either Mainline or Swoop pilots as there is right now. If we went straight to one list for example, there are a significant number of Encore pilots senior to the most junior Swoop pilots and even a few of the most junior mainline pilots. However, right now only senior Encore pilots hold a bid onto a mainline position, but really junior pilots can hold a bid into Swoop positions as most senior pilots, in support of Mainline pilots, haven't bid into Swoop.

If we had one list for lay offs too, the junior Swoop and mainline pilots (part of the same bargaining unit) would be susceptible to being bumped by senior Encore pilots.

Moving on now to the One List LOA document. It does say that WJ/Swoop pilots being laid off get to bid on open Encore positions but Encore pilots don't get to bid on open Swoop/WJ positions in sections 8.01 and 9.01. Although many mainline folks are reading this provision as "I don't get to bump Encore pilots if I'm laid off" the real way to read it is "Senior Encore pilots can't bump junior Swoop/WJ pilots if THEY get laid off".

Things ARE messy no doubt. 3 companies, 2 unions. But please let's read through all the documents and discuss things.

To Victory!
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cloak
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Re: One list

Post by cloak » Fri May 03, 2019 7:21 am

Firstly, congratulations to Encore pilots for securing a "good" contract and the 90% vote shows that the great majority agree with this sentiment. Great gains have been made in areas of flow and compensation, for not only flow has been increased to 60%, but it seems for the first time there is monetary value attached to this formula for the pilot group. Another great advantage is the top up pay which essentially starts Encore pilots at year three and well ahead of any other direct-hire pilots. These are significant gains that help build perspective.

They also show that perhaps the "one list" is being priced into the contract to create a more independently sustainable remuneration at Encore going forward. This is smart because the old model was simply not sustainable. Recall that Encore was started below "industry average" and well below the likes of Jazz and Porter. To compensate, much to the credit of WestJet pilots, the one list was created to entice the Encore pilots. As time has gone by, Encore has grown to mature on its own and this model is no longer sustainable or necessary. This is due to many factors.

Firstly, Encore has grown to be a sizeable airline with its own advantages compelling some to consider it for the long haul. Secondly, the great majority of the initial experienced group that established Encore has already flowed to WestJet or left for other greener pastures. The majority of new recruits, in comparison, are at the beginning of their careers and need not such incentives. And finally, the compensation package has improved and this new contract has already priced in a replacement for the "one list" in the form of monetary reward for Encore pilots and placing them ahead of direct-hire pilots. This model is sustainable.

While arguments can be presented with much fervor, perspective is needed to draw a logical, fair conclusion that creates a sustainable model. The same way that "separate bargaining units" is used as justification or explanation for the lay-off language, so too it can be in all situations, that is to say when an Encore pilot is "hired" at WestJet, they go to the bottom of the seniority list like any other new hire, except that they go ahead of other new hires and because of their service at Encore they are rewarded with bump-up pay for two years, so in essence they start at year three. Plus they forego the whole interview process that other new hires went through. And since new hires have no say in the labour relations of the company they join, "they should have known" cannot be a real justification/explanation for the one list. The same can be said for instance about Air Canada that just because pilots still join it, doesn't mean they agree with 4 long years of "probationary" pay.

For these factors, it is difficult to envision a "working" solution for the one list and whether or not this time, it is a model that will be obsolete.
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Last edited by cloak on Fri May 03, 2019 8:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

mbav8r
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Re: One list

Post by mbav8r » Fri May 03, 2019 7:31 am

JBI,
I understand that you’re a lawyer, so you would or should know better than most the importance of how something can be interpreted.
Section 1-1.05 is the important one where (a) there will be 90% of active WJ pilot positions and (b) No pilot shall be laid off as a direct result of a number of different commercial agreements.
My understanding of this, is this clause is based on the day this arbitrated agreement took effect, meaning if there were 1000 WJ pilots that day, 900 is the minimum they could go to as a result of shifting work.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong, this clause does not include Encore pilot positions therefore every Encore pilot that flows becomes part of the 90%, essentially bumping down the OTS pilots. In my example, if 100 Encore pilots flow, those that were number 800-900 are now at risk of lay-off in addition to those that were 900-1000.
The award is not name specific, it’s a number based on 90% of active pilots, you can see how this could be problematic for OTS pilots who are very likely to vote no.
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Mach1
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Re: One list

Post by Mach1 » Fri May 03, 2019 12:22 pm

SPR wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:49 am
George Taylor wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:16 am
Hey SPR there are lots of tissues in the jet, looks like you could use some. Sounds like a lot of fun being with you on a 4 day. It's not your fellow pilots that you should be angry with.
If pilots deprive me of my current standing on the One List, then that's exactly who I'll be angry with. Who else would be responsible?
Since Mach1 didn't bother to answer this question, I'll pose it to you too:
Here's an analogy: imagine you accepted a job at a starting wage of $100/hour, and your colleagues voted to reduce your pay to, say, $50/hour. Would you continue working there?
Sure, I'll answer that. What makes you think that this has not happened to me several times throughout my career? It did. Here's what I did: I adapted to the new situation as best I could and adjusted my life as needed and I moved forward in life. You can sit around being mad and bitter but it eats you up and it's just wasted energy because it changes nothing at the end of the day. Life changes and nothing is forever.

SPR, I know nothing will change your mind or alter your very set attitude in life but, what the hell, here's some free advice: Don't do me any favours by moving onto the mainline planes. I'll have to be that captain you sit with as you seethe about something you feel you didn't get in life. Eventually, you are going to force me to be an asshole, and I don't like being an asshole, to administer an attitude correction to you. If you think the captain you are flying with can't make your life a living hell, then you have not been in the industry long. It can go right up to me ejecting you from the flight deck. After that, both you and the captain are going to be called into the office to explain what happened. My answer will be simple. You failed to do your duty/endangered the aircraft through lack of SOP and CRM adherence. Your answer, if you are being honest, will be you are mad about X, Y, or Z that you are owed. Which side of this do you think the Chief Pilot or DFO are going to come down on? Who's career gets hurt when this happens? Just some food for thought for you.
Mr. North wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:12 pm
It would behoove some of us to climb down from the haughty perch of "dues paying" and "hardship" and realize that new pilots are no more entitled than they are victims of circumstance.
I agree, the industry is in a position to improve and I think it should be improved. For all. One of the things overlooked by those at the top is that it's tough at the bottom... but the thing that is overlooked by those at the bottom is that dues have been paid by those at the upper levels right now. People who didn't get into the airlines until they were in their 40's and have only a limited amount of time to acquire a reasonable amount to retire on while those who are just beginning an airline career at 25 have a long life to earn high wages. I'm all for helping out those starting out but do you really think it will enter their consciousness to add money to my hourly wages or retirement benefits when the next contract gets negotiated? Or do you think they will look at the top earners and say, "Screw them, they make all this money and I only get this smaller amount!" even though one has been 20+ years in the industry vs. 5 years. I have no faith that a person like SPR would ever think, "Hey, that guy only got to earn big money for 10 years of his entire life, he should get a raise" But I can count on him to pout in the flight deck if he doesn't get everything he wants... mad at me because the system is somehow my fault. It's a long way of saying, this is a two way street.
Mr. North wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:12 pm
The largest opportunity our profession has encountered in modern history is nearly upon us. How best do we approach it? On a unified front seeking improvements for all pilots? Or divided in groups taking an immature satisfaction in undercutting one another because of generational differences in experience and circumstance?
I agree. United we stand. Divided we fall.... that's from the top down and the bottom up.

I would also argue that those who think a no vote will reopen the contract that you are not being realistic in your hopes. The company (Clive) would burn the company to the ground rather than reopen that contract early. To do so would be to admit they were wrong and that's the one thing they cannot do. Better to burn it to the ground and start over in their minds.
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I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!

hurtin'albertan
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan » Fri May 03, 2019 12:54 pm

To those who are pissed off about WJ pilots not being able to bump/flush out Encore pilots if there is a layoff at mainline, you need to consider that if you want that ability, then Encore pilots will want the same thing in the event there are layoffs there. You can't have your cake and eat it too,

Imagine this scenario: Mainline is growing, adding 787s, hiring etc. Sure some pilots are flowed from Encore, some though are OTS. Those OTS pilots are obviously at the bottom of the “one list”.

Now let’s say WJ enters into a CPA with some other company, or expands the one with Pasco and they can provide feed for the beast (787s). Let’s say that Encore has remained stagnant. Very little hiring, so there are a number of OTS mainline pilots occupying the bottom of the one list.

Now let’s say that Encore is having trouble attracting talent to staff their planes, or their flight attendants go on a lengthy strike, or the Q400 is grounded for a while a la Max (lucky the other CPA is running ATRs!) and the decision is made to just park some planes and lay off pilots. This isn’t a direct result of the CPA, which would violate Encore’s scope provision about commercial agreements but due to some other factor. Bottom line: there are layoffs at Encore.

Well now we have Encore pilots, who are senior to WJ mainline pilots on the One List punted to the curb?

"But it's one list!" you say. "Seniority rules!" you say.

If you want the ability to lay off in pure seniority on the One List, then it can’t just be one way. The junior guy, whether mainline, Swoop or Encore gets the boot.

Think about that before you get all indignant about not being able to flush Encore pilots if there is a layoff at mainline.
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Last edited by hurtin'albertan on Fri May 03, 2019 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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