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skyhighh
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Re: One list

Post by skyhighh »

I'm not sure where I said than OTS hires were the Enemy. The ones going to Swoop... well we might have different feelings towards them. But when it comes to mainline we all agreed on a certain % of outside hires and I never heard anybody complaining about the fact WJ hired OTS. I'm sorry if anybody made you feel that way, and if it's me, it wasn't my intention.
As for the "lucky" part... We can agree to disagree. I've known countless people at Encore who flew planes as big as A340 and B747 and they got to Encore... and 6 months later WJ started hiring guys from B1900 and Metroliner... All this is timing and therefor... in my opinion... luck.
After there are also OTS hires that have great experience and I never denied that but looking at the Encore captain and think that they have no experience and are barely old enough to graduate high school is plain wrong. Seriously, look at the pilots that just flowed and ask them what they had experience wise before going to Encore. It looks like you might get a surprise.

Anyway, we can agree or not... it doesn't matter. In no way did I try to offend any OTS, I just stated a fact that Encore pilots have a lot more experience than what people believe and that they deserve their seniority that was originally offered to them. That was part of the deal.. "Sorry we aren't hiring at WJ right now but you can spend 2-3 years at Encore and your seniority will remain the same. Welcome to the WestJet family".

On that note, thanks again for not coming to WJ knowing what the deal was and then fight against the one list. It is truly appreciated.
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DropTanks
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Re: One list

Post by DropTanks »

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FlyYYC
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Re: One list

Post by FlyYYC »

Sorry, this is a long trend... has it been answered if a no vote will effect past encore pilots?
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JBI
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Re: One list

Post by JBI »

FlyYYC wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 9:31 am Sorry, this is a long trend... has it been answered if a no vote will effect past encore pilots?
Encore pilots that flowed since Jan 1, 2019 would lose their seniority.

Encore pilots that flowed prior to Jan 1, 2019 would keep their seniority but in theory lose their date of hire which could reduce their vacation entitlement among other things.
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sarg
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Re: One list

Post by sarg »

JBI wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 7:38 pm According to a mainline friend who listened to the All pilot call tonight, the WJ MEC indicated that it will NOT ask to try and renegotiate (As is 100% their right to do so) if the LOA vote fails.

A "no" vote does NOT mean they try to renegotiate. A "no" vote means mainline pilots will not get a chance to rework things and they will be significantly screwing over the Encore pilots.
That's not quite the way it works. The MEC would have to seek or be given another mandate to work on the One List.
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Re: One list

Post by JBI »

sarg wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 10:43 am
JBI wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 7:38 pm According to a mainline friend who listened to the All pilot call tonight, the WJ MEC indicated that it will NOT ask to try and renegotiate (As is 100% their right to do so) if the LOA vote fails.

A "no" vote does NOT mean they try to renegotiate. A "no" vote means mainline pilots will not get a chance to rework things and they will be significantly screwing over the Encore pilots.
That's not quite the way it works. The MEC would have to seek or be given another mandate to work on the One List.
Technically yes, you are correct, the MEC would have to seek a mandate to work on the One List, though to me it indicates that they would not seek such a mandate. And while I'm getting the sense that most of the less vocal folks are generally in favour of the One List LOA, I think that it would be pretty difficult for the members to give the MEC a mandate to work on a One List after a No vote.

With regard to your previous post:
sarg wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 5:41 pm
So as a lawyer do you care to comment on the balance on Section 11.03 that says basically "if a pilot has received a reserved seniority right they get to keep it even if the agreement is cancelled"?

It seems to this layman that if the vote is Yes the company get what they want, the current Encore pilots are covered the company has no reason to renegotiate or even maintain the agreement. They can tell every future Encore pilot it's flow only and every future OTS at WestJet for the next few years will get to dwell on the bottom of the list.

The only way this gets fixed is if there is pressure on the company to get this fixed, a Yes vote seems to remove this pressure.
I'm afraid I don't quite follow your line of reasoning. If the LOA is accepted by all parties, a party does have the right to cancel the agreement but the current pilots on property would have their seniority numbers frozen. To me this is a very good thing as it removes any uncertainty on where people's seniority stands. Are you suggesting that certainty around each pilot on the property's seniority isn't a good thing?
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cloak
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Re: One list

Post by cloak »

altiplano wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 1:02 pm This is an interesting topic... not just as it relates to Westjet/Encore but as related to other airlines.

Certainly worth looking at how other airlines manage flow from their regionals both now and in the past - including flow from wholly owned regional subsidiaries.

Do any offer seniority DOH carry over? Flow up or back?

American/PSA (wholly owned) -guaranteed flow, no interview... BOTL.

American/Piedmont (wholly owned) - guaranteed flow, no interview... BOTL. Can flow back to original seniority if you wash out at American.

American/Envoy (wholly owned) - guaranteed flow, no interview... BOTL.

American/American Eagle (wholly owned) - old Envoy deal - flowed with some seniority in terms of YOS pay... BOTL. There was also a flowback provision when American furloughed. Turned out a mess in the flowback/recall/flowup resulting in an arbitration awarding higher seniority to some AE pilots during recalls/flowups.

Delta/Endeavor (wholly owned) - 18 months as a Captain, clean employment record = guaranteed interview... BOTL

Delta's other regionals, guaranteed priority application review... BOTL.

Delta (Northwest)/Compass (wholly owned) - prior to being sold, full flow up/down agreement. All flow down Delta pilots were to sit senior to the most senior Compass pilot (except any senior "protected" pilots who bypassed flow up), all flow up regional pilots go BOTL.
90% of regional positions guaranteed to Delta (Northwest) pilots in a flow down, 10% guaranteed to protected pilots who bypass flow up and locked in seniority relative the larger list.

United - various express interview or priority application review deals... BOTL.

Alaska/Horizon (wholly owned) - "Pathway" gives hiring quotas from the regional and priority application/interview... BOTL

Air Canada/Jazz - Current pilot mobility agreement gives interview/flow in relative Jazz seniority, hiring quotas, and 90% acceptance guaranteed... BOTL.
altiplano, thank you for sharing your research. It certainly adds perspective!

The WestJet/Encore model is similar to those examples, and your other points regarding future challenges including sale, mergers, buy-outs also seem valid. As the two companies evolve and grow the challenges of such program will only become more complex and difficult. A long term and lasting solution may simply necessitate other ways of attracting pilots to Encore.
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sarg
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Re: One list

Post by sarg »

JBI wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 11:01 am
sarg wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 10:43 am
JBI wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 7:38 pm According to a mainline friend who listened to the All pilot call tonight, the WJ MEC indicated that it will NOT ask to try and renegotiate (As is 100% their right to do so) if the LOA vote fails.

A "no" vote does NOT mean they try to renegotiate. A "no" vote means mainline pilots will not get a chance to rework things and they will be significantly screwing over the Encore pilots.
That's not quite the way it works. The MEC would have to seek or be given another mandate to work on the One List.
Technically yes, you are correct, the MEC would have to seek a mandate to work on the One List, though to me it indicates that they would not seek such a mandate. And while I'm getting the sense that most of the less vocal folks are generally in favour of the One List LOA, I think that it would be pretty difficult for the members to give the MEC a mandate to work on a One List after a No vote.

With regard to your previous post:
sarg wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 5:41 pm
So as a lawyer do you care to comment on the balance on Section 11.03 that says basically "if a pilot has received a reserved seniority right they get to keep it even if the agreement is cancelled"?

It seems to this layman that if the vote is Yes the company get what they want, the current Encore pilots are covered the company has no reason to renegotiate or even maintain the agreement. They can tell every future Encore pilot it's flow only and every future OTS at WestJet for the next few years will get to dwell on the bottom of the list.

The only way this gets fixed is if there is pressure on the company to get this fixed, a Yes vote seems to remove this pressure.
I'm afraid I don't quite follow your line of reasoning. If the LOA is accepted by all parties, a party does have the right to cancel the agreement but the current pilots on property would have their seniority numbers frozen. To me this is a very good thing as it removes any uncertainty on where people's seniority stands. Are you suggesting that certainty around each pilot on the property's seniority isn't a good thing?
The mandate is easy, Item (blank) is the problem fix it.

The second comment cuts to the crux of the problem the current Encore pilots are not on the property. They are currently on a different piece of fenced off property. Seniority rights need to work in both directions, not just one.
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JBI
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Re: One list

Post by JBI »

A few responses to some of the discussion topics that I hadn't touched upon previously.
mbav8r wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 7:31 am JBI,
I understand that you’re a lawyer, so you would or should know better than most the importance of how something can be interpreted.
Section 1-1.05 is the important one where (a) there will be 90% of active WJ pilot positions and (b) No pilot shall be laid off as a direct result of a number of different commercial agreements.
My understanding of this, is this clause is based on the day this arbitrated agreement took effect, meaning if there were 1000 WJ pilots that day, 900 is the minimum they could go to as a result of shifting work.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong, this clause does not include Encore pilot positions therefore every Encore pilot that flows becomes part of the 90%, essentially bumping down the OTS pilots. In my example, if 100 Encore pilots flow, those that were number 800-900 are now at risk of lay-off in addition to those that were 900-1000.
The award is not name specific, it’s a number based on 90% of active pilots, you can see how this could be problematic for OTS pilots who are very likely to vote no.
mbav8r,

Apologies for the delayed response to your post. As I read things, the 90% is to prevent mainline from essentially moving all 30 tails to Swoop asap and then saying "well, sorry guys, if you want to keep a job, you need to move to Swoop". It's not conditional on anything, just the company won't reduce it.

While I do take your point that 90% of mainline pilots at the date of the agreement (my math puts that at very roughly 1400 or so pilots (90% of 1550 mainline pilots)) not being all that much if there is significant expansion, there actually WON'T be any mainline pilots (OTS or otherwise) who get bumped down that were previously protected. Because of the trend in hiring, that ~1400 number on the date of the Agreement only has about 15-20 Encore pilots above it that could flow. However, the vast majority of those are management pilots. So in reality, all those protect by that 90% value (Seniority position 1400 and above) will remain in that position. And, as mainline guys still continue to move to AC, more pilots will be protected.

For any mainline OTS or Encore pilot that flows, they are already below that magic number of 1400 so wouldn't be protected either way.

Regardless, as I'll discuss in a new topic, it's the other scope clauses that I believe are an even greater protection.
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 8:28 pm The MEC also said if it fails the company will have to put the money into a better contract at Encore making it a more desirable Regional than others in order to attract talent.
The company will have lots of options available to it and going to the Encore MEC to sweeten the pot is definitely one of them. However, I'm not sure the MEC is in a position to say what the company will or will not do.

cloak wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 11:29 am

Delta (Northwest)/Compass (wholly owned) - prior to being sold, full flow up/down agreement. All flow down Delta pilots were to sit senior to the most senior Compass pilot (except any senior "protected" pilots who bypassed flow up), all flow up regional pilots go BOTL.
90% of regional positions guaranteed to Delta (Northwest) pilots in a flow down, 10% guaranteed to protected pilots who bypass flow up and locked in seniority relative the larger list.
altiplano, thank you for sharing your research. It certainly adds perspective!
While the research may add perspective, the only one that is actually an appropriate comparator to the WestJet/Encore situation is Compass Airlines which was started as a compromise with ALPA and Northwest Airlines. At the start, the pilots at Compass were given the opportunity to flow and be bumped. However, when Northwest was bought out by Delta, the contract was renegotiated in 2010. The pilots on the property kept the right to flow to Delta, but the ones who came later didn't get that privilege.

In other words, no pilot who joined Compass with the promise of flow was screwed over. The new contract grandfathered them in. So while there are significant differences to the situation at NWA/DL and Compass and WJ/Encore, the important thing to note is that no pilots already on the property at Compass ended up losing out on something that was always promised to them.
sarg wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 12:52 pm
The mandate is easy, Item (blank) is the problem fix it.

The second comment cuts to the crux of the problem the current Encore pilots are not on the property. They are currently on a different piece of fenced off property. Seniority rights need to work in both directions, not just one.
Respectfully, I don't think it's quite so easy as "go fix it", but sure the pilots could give an MEC (or new MEC for that matter) a mandate to TRY and get a One List Agreement with different lay-off provisions. But in my opinion, mainline pilots are already MORE protected from lay-off than they would be is there was a pure "one list" provision. I'll be doing a separate topic to explain this.
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V1
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Re: One list

Post by V1 »

Never in my lifetime of flying would I ever think WJ pilots would want to sewer their fellow Encore pilots, I expected this from company, but now the WJ pilots who are saying NO are most definitely not going to be respected by Encore pilots, their partners, anyone who has any values in their body. Its a pretty sad time in aviation if this is what it has come to.

The rationale and greed almost make angry Grandpa sound like he was right, I can just see him laughing while reading this. Encore has done nothing but help WJ grow, they came to work and slogged it out for years to have their WJ brothers now shit on them over whatever it is that makes them mad at this moment.

The WJ NC got an agreement, but it sounds like many of you don't have faith in your MEC, though as JBI has pointed out you are all protected under this agreement.

I fear a lot of you are now addicted to the drama of being screwed over, and complaining for so long nothing can be good, unless it just sucks for everyone else. Encore unified to make it better for you, for us, and everyone that comes after us and that was the whole point of unionizing and making agreements, and thank goodness for that because if the agreements got worse for the people after us than we would be doing something very wrong, and if you could just put yourself for one second in an Encore persons shoes I would hope you would want to do what they signed up to do when they came to this job, and not just change your mind now to try to get more. I hope it only gets better and better, and the people after an agreement have more and more, but within the confines of a legal agreements. They have to start somewhere and the only hope Encore and WJ pilots had at 88% vote was that this was important and would pass, and now its a temper tantrum moment meant to make Encore lose the basic hope in their fellow brothers and sisters so they don't have to start at the bottom of the list again, as they came there thinking they wouldn't. Imagine following through on your word, or are you just going to bait and switch, just like company did for years because they were jerks, and somehow now you are the jerks.
It's as simple as that.
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FlyYYC
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Re: One list

Post by FlyYYC »

Encore should have never been made a separate company. The union certainly makes things more complicated. It's also not just OTS pilots voting no. There are previous Encore pilots who are very unhappy that they put in their time and never got their top up pay.
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cloak
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Re: One list

Post by cloak »

It matters not what was said or not said to OTS pilots, Encore pilots - or anyone else for that matter - at the interview; this is a new day and new opportunity through a democratic process. Nothing is static in life. Times change and people must change with the times. Terminating the one list will simply make Encore develop its own merits. Some find it quite reasonable, some find it outrageous, whatever the case, raw emotions don't support one's point of view, they diminish it! And in final analysis the market is always right.
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Re: One list

Post by fish4life »

FlyYYC wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 4:43 pm Encore should have never been made a separate company. The union certainly makes things more complicated. It's also not just OTS pilots voting no. There are previous Encore pilots who are very unhappy that they put in their time and never got their top up pay.
What top up pay ?
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Re: One list

Post by skybaron »

V1 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 9:46 pm Never in my lifetime of flying would I ever think WJ pilots would want to sewer their fellow Encore pilots, I expected this from company, but now the WJ pilots who are saying NO are most definitely not going to be respected by Encore pilots, their partners, anyone who has any values in their body. Its a pretty sad time in aviation if this is what it has come to.

The rationale and greed almost make angry Grandpa sound like he was right, I can just see him laughing while reading this. Encore has done nothing but help WJ grow, they came to work and slogged it out for years to have their WJ brothers now shit on them over whatever it is that makes them mad at this moment.

The WJ NC got an agreement, but it sounds like many of you don't have faith in your MEC, though as JBI has pointed out you are all protected under this agreement.

I fear a lot of you are now addicted to the drama of being screwed over, and complaining for so long nothing can be good, unless it just sucks for everyone else. Encore unified to make it better for you, for us, and everyone that comes after us and that was the whole point of unionizing and making agreements, and thank goodness for that because if the agreements got worse for the people after us than we would be doing something very wrong, and if you could just put yourself for one second in an Encore persons shoes I would hope you would want to do what they signed up to do when they came to this job, and not just change your mind now to try to get more. I hope it only gets better and better, and the people after an agreement have more and more, but within the confines of a legal agreements. They have to start somewhere and the only hope Encore and WJ pilots had at 88% vote was that this was important and would pass, and now its a temper tantrum moment meant to make Encore lose the basic hope in their fellow brothers and sisters so they don't have to start at the bottom of the list again, as they came there thinking they wouldn't. Imagine following through on your word, or are you just going to bait and switch, just like company did for years because they were jerks, and somehow now you are the jerks.
It's as simple as that.

Makes sense!
I’ve watched this saga unfold for years, and it’s unfortunate the way the COMPANY orchestrated this nonsense affair of separate pilot groups. Nevertheless, Encore people held a strong position in supporting its Mainline counterparts in their quest for unification, and the black-balling of Swoop. To turn around and spit in their faces is just plain dark comedy. Any WJetter or whatever you call yourselves should be ashamed of yourselves for now not supporting your very own.
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flyinhigh
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Re: One list

Post by flyinhigh »

fish4life wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 8:35 pm What top up pay ?
During Bargaining the Encore pilots negotiated a $1200 a month top up for a period of 24 months. Effectively this allows a pilot to flow and be close to year 3 pay at mainline. Former Encore pilots are mad because they chose to flow 1 month to 2 years ago, get the benefit of YOS and such but no top up.

Important note is that, NO Encore pilot gets any benefit of their contract until date of signing (May 2) so to back date the top up (known as REIP) makes no sense.
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JBI
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Re: One list

Post by JBI »

cloak wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:01 pm It matters not what was said or not said to OTS pilots, Encore pilots - or anyone else for that matter - at the interview; this is a new day and new opportunity through a democratic process. Nothing is static in life. Times change and people must change with the times. Terminating the one list will simply make Encore develop its own merits. Some find it quite reasonable, some find it outrageous, whatever the case, raw emotions don't support one's point of view, they diminish it! And in final analysis the market is always right.
cloak,

Although I respect your opinion I'm afraid you've made two logical fallacies in your argument.

First, it does matter significantly as to what the key terms of the employment contract that the Encore pilots were working under. While you are correct that now that each pilot group has certified there is a different CA, there are a number of Encore pilots who have been working at Encore with flow and one list as a key term of their employment contract and, essentially, a factor in their wages & working conditions. This was something that was factored into their career decisions throughout their time at Encore and whether it made sense to remain at Encore or perhaps apply elsewhere. It's more than just was told to them at the interview.

Second, while there may be arguments for terminating the One List, it does not have to be done so in a way that has an extremely negative impact on the current 500+ Encore pilots. Like the previous example of Compass Airlines and Delta, any changes to the One List and/or flow provision should have the current pilots get grandfathered in. The objective debate of the merits of the One List is a separate debate from whether the mainline pilots should vote Yes on this current LOA. With the amendment clauses included in this LOA, your debate on whether terminating the One List would simply make Encore develop on its own merits could, in theory, continue (though I suspect most pilots are growing fatigued of such issues).

Voting No to the One List LOA will have a negative effect on the 500+ Encore pilots and an extremely drastic one on the Encore pilots who have been working at Encore for the last 3 to 5 years with the One List as a key term in their employment contract.

And while I agree with your general message of looking at these matters objectively without emotion, the fact remains that the vast majority of Encore pilots will feel royally screwed over and pissed off if this LOA fails. The negative impacts on the company that will ensue due to this division must also be considered. Especially when you look at the wording and amendment clasues of the LOA, it makes no sense for mainline pilots to vote No at this juncture.
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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: One list

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

I disagree...still voting no!
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Re: One list

Post by JBI »

Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 8:24 am I disagree...still voting no!
Make WestJet Great Again! :lol:
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Re: One list

Post by bob99 »

JBI wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 8:52 am
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 8:24 am I disagree...still voting no!
Make WestJet Great Again! :lol:
They do sound like Trump supporters, don't they? And you can't reason with those people.

Thanks for screwing over your Encore brothers and sisters :roll:
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Re: One list

Post by sstaurus »

Voting no will just make Swoop more attractive (if it could be at all). Instead of letting it fizzle out and squashing it like a bug, Swoop will grow to be a bigger thorn in your side. But I guess it's all about me me me again... unity can go fly a kite.
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