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tps8903
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Re: One list

Post by tps8903 »

Barney wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 4:08 pm Sorry to all the Encore folks. Look on the bright side at least you still have a guaranteed job at mainline with flow and the top up pay which helps big time on the first two years. All in all its still not that bad when you think about it from that perspective.

Your career progression is still intact and looks like Onex wants to grow internationally which will create lots of movement.

Act professionally out there you never know what will happen next in this industry.
Technically flow died with the one list. It's up to the Company and the Encore MEC to negotiate a new Flow LOU. Hopefully we get this done sooner than later and hopefully the company will increase the flow amount.
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Re: One list

Post by Gear Jerker »

This is incorrect, flow doesn't change. The one list pertained to respecting DOH at the Westjet Group seniority. It now looks like a traditional airline structure with flow to the bottom of the list. ie 6 month Encore FO's who flowed to Swoop FO a year ago will have seniority over the 5 year Encore training captain who flows to Westjet. You guys happy?
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Re: One list

Post by GATRKGA »

How do you guys at Encore feel about your collective agreement now? Would 92% still vote in favor? I hope this serves as a lesson for you to not just agree to the first agreement that is put on the table. Perhaps you should have thrown your MEC back to the negots and delay the vote until this very important vote went through.

For what it's worth, you guys at Encore are still way ahead where you would have been before the existence of Encore. Which don't forget, was only 6 years ago. Back then all you 1000 hour instructors would have been flying to fort skin john, loading bags in -30 wind chill and "paying" your dues before Jazz or any of the sort would even look at you. Now, at 1000 hours you're privy to a cushy airline gig, a cup of coffee being served to you, and an APU blasting air conditioned bleed air, where instead of spending 5 years trying to get recognized in the industry, with a frozen attitude indicator in a King Air after a stand up in YMM, you've already been recognized and are well on your way to a legacy mainline job without question in 4-5 years.

While something was taken away from you, and feelings of betrayal are real, you still have it better than how it used to be. Not that I think this is a metric that you should pump your chest about, but gives you a reality check as to where you would have been only 6 years ago had you not been employed at a company like Encore.

My buddy was hired at WJ 2 years after his student, whom he taught PPL to back in his instructing days. This student having recently crossed his 1000 hours total time at Encore was joking how they'd upgrade ahead of my buddy on the 737 at WJ, looks like the pecking order has been restored for many who came into WJ with loads of exp. While this doesn't hold true for the experienced DEC's that went to Encore, you could've waited like the rest of those that are being hired competitively with good time into WJ today and bypassed this fiasco.

It doesn't defy however that the one list was promised to you, and that it has now been taken away. I can totally see your frustration. Accountability goes a very long way in this industry. What just happened here is a great lesson for those inexperienced 23 year olds that are posting nothing but glory stories on instagram with their 4 bars.

Best of luck with your future endeavors Encore guys.
SPR wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm Thanks guys. You've really emphasized that WestJet and Encore are separate, and we're not on the same team. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one am done helping you, and I'm going to take every small opportunity I have to jab back at you. To the guys who used my jumpseat to get home on the last, full flight of the night, you can spent another night away from home. To the guys who used my jumpseat to barely make it to work by the skin of their teeth, you can deal with the ramifications of the new commuting rules. To the guy who asked to go ahead of me in the immigration line so he could make it to his kid's birthday, you can wait your damn turn.
You guys have all just reinforced Swoop, and ensured that a flood of Encore pilots will be going there and continuing the terrible working conditions. You've undermined your best opportunity to improve things for members of your own bargaining group. I'll be looking for work elsewhere now, but in the meantime I'm seriously considering going to Swoop and doing whatever I can to help get thirty tails moved over from WestJet. If management has trouble crewing all those planes, I'll work 26 days a month to stick it to you. Then I'm going to go work for one of your competitors and help them wear down WestJet from the outside. I hope Onex guts you.
A very emotional post, and clearly not indicative of how you're going to go about your business. Once you calm down you'll realize that you won't be going down the path of screwing WJ for the rest of your career.
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Re: One list

Post by KAG »

There is already a ground swell of wj no voting pilots who want it reworked and re voted. Fix one simple aspect- reverse flow if there are layoffs (as was in the original moa) and it will pass.
The one list is still wanted, and I expect a demand for tweaking. Dont freak out just yet.
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Re: One list

Post by CaptainHaddock »

Sorry guys, I was a yes and feel this is an unfortunate outcome. I am sure the Onex deal would have created some uncertainty for some WJ guys. The language about the bump and flush got a lot of guys too. It may very well be revisited and tweaked. Either way it is a let down. There has been a lot of divide and conquer going on a WJ the last few years and it really hasn’t served any of the pilots well-it is to bad if this will be used as another tool of division.
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Re: One list

Post by Gear Jerker »

GATRKGA wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:13 pm How do you guys at Encore feel about your collective agreement now? Would 92% still vote in favor? I hope this serves as a lesson for you to not just agree to the first agreement that is put on the table. Perhaps you should have thrown your MEC back to the negots and delay the vote until this very important vote went through.

For what it's worth, you guys at Encore are still way ahead where you would have been before the existence of Encore. Which don't forget, was only 6 years ago. Back then all you 1000 hour instructors would have been flying to fort skin john, loading bags in -30 wind chill and "paying" your dues before Jazz or any of the sort would even look at you. Now, at 1000 hours you're privy to a cushy airline gig, a cup of coffee being served to you, and an APU blasting air conditioned bleed air, where instead of spending 5 years trying to get recognized in the industry, with a frozen attitude indicator in a King Air after a stand up in YMM, you've already been recognized and are well on your way to a legacy mainline job without question in 4-5 years.

While something was taken away from you, and feelings of betrayal are real, you still have it better than how it used to be. Not that I think this is a metric that you should pump your chest about, but gives you a reality check as to where you would have been only 6 years ago had you not been employed at a company like Encore.

My buddy was hired at WJ 2 years after his student, whom he taught PPL to back in his instructing days. This student having recently crossed his 1000 hours total time at Encore was joking how they'd upgrade ahead of my buddy on the 737 at WJ, looks like the pecking order has been restored for many who came into WJ with loads of exp. While this doesn't hold true for the experienced DEC's that went to Encore, you could've waited like the rest of those that are being hired competitively with good time into WJ today and bypassed this fiasco.

It doesn't defy however that the one list was promised to you, and that it has now been taken away. I can totally see your frustration. Accountability goes a very long way in this industry. What just happened here is a great lesson for those inexperienced 23 year olds that are posting nothing but glory stories on instagram with their 4 bars.

Best of luck with your future endeavors Encore guys.
SPR wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm Thanks guys. You've really emphasized that WestJet and Encore are separate, and we're not on the same team. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one am done helping you, and I'm going to take every small opportunity I have to jab back at you. To the guys who used my jumpseat to get home on the last, full flight of the night, you can spent another night away from home. To the guys who used my jumpseat to barely make it to work by the skin of their teeth, you can deal with the ramifications of the new commuting rules. To the guy who asked to go ahead of me in the immigration line so he could make it to his kid's birthday, you can wait your damn turn.
You guys have all just reinforced Swoop, and ensured that a flood of Encore pilots will be going there and continuing the terrible working conditions. You've undermined your best opportunity to improve things for members of your own bargaining group. I'll be looking for work elsewhere now, but in the meantime I'm seriously considering going to Swoop and doing whatever I can to help get thirty tails moved over from WestJet. If management has trouble crewing all those planes, I'll work 26 days a month to stick it to you. Then I'm going to go work for one of your competitors and help them wear down WestJet from the outside. I hope Onex guts you.
A very emotional post, and clearly not indicative of how you're going to go about your business. Once you calm down you'll realize that you won't be going down the path of screwing WJ for the rest of your career.
Love the arrogance bud. Really, classy post there thanks captain 5 bars.

Do you really think thats what all Encore pilots are? 23 year olds who instructed for a year or went straight into the right seat of a King Air for 6 months then came to Encore?

Just so you know, Encore is about 520 pilots at the moment, and while what you describe does exist, they are not the majority. Up until about a year and a half ago it was all 704 and 703 captains. Some of us have even worked the ramp up north, done multiple job hunting road trips flown a variety of aircraft and accumulated thousands of hours before applying, and took this job because of the one list.

Having said that, your attitude is the reason why our industry doesn't progress. Believe me, as a training captain at Encore I feel the same feelings when I encounter entitlement, but I also recognize that the attitude of "I had to go through all this bulls*** so you should too" is exactly the emotional base that led to this irrational, short sighted and terrible decision.

I bet you're a real beauty to fly with.
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Re: One list

Post by Vanguard »

GATRKGA wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:13 pm How do you guys at Encore feel about your collective agreement now? Would 92% still vote in favor? I hope this serves as a lesson for you to not just agree to the first agreement that is put on the table. Perhaps you should have thrown your MEC back to the negots and delay the vote until this very important vote went through.

For what it's worth, you guys at Encore are still way ahead where you would have been before the existence of Encore. Which don't forget, was only 6 years ago. Back then all you 1000 hour instructors would have been flying to fort skin john, loading bags in -30 wind chill and "paying" your dues before Jazz or any of the sort would even look at you. Now, at 1000 hours you're privy to a cushy airline gig, a cup of coffee being served to you, and an APU blasting air conditioned bleed air, where instead of spending 5 years trying to get recognized in the industry, with a frozen attitude indicator in a King Air after a stand up in YMM, you've already been recognized and are well on your way to a legacy mainline job without question in 4-5 years.

While something was taken away from you, and feelings of betrayal are real, you still have it better than how it used to be. Not that I think this is a metric that you should pump your chest about, but gives you a reality check as to where you would have been only 6 years ago had you not been employed at a company like Encore.

My buddy was hired at WJ 2 years after his student, whom he taught PPL to back in his instructing days. This student having recently crossed his 1000 hours total time at Encore was joking how they'd upgrade ahead of my buddy on the 737 at WJ, looks like the pecking order has been restored for many who came into WJ with loads of exp. While this doesn't hold true for the experienced DEC's that went to Encore, you could've waited like the rest of those that are being hired competitively with good time into WJ today and bypassed this fiasco.

It doesn't defy however that the one list was promised to you, and that it has now been taken away. I can totally see your frustration. Accountability goes a very long way in this industry. What just happened here is a great lesson for those inexperienced 23 year olds that are posting nothing but glory stories on instagram with their 4 bars.

Best of luck with your future endeavors Encore guys.
SPR wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm Thanks guys. You've really emphasized that WestJet and Encore are separate, and we're not on the same team. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one am done helping you, and I'm going to take every small opportunity I have to jab back at you. To the guys who used my jumpseat to get home on the last, full flight of the night, you can spent another night away from home. To the guys who used my jumpseat to barely make it to work by the skin of their teeth, you can deal with the ramifications of the new commuting rules. To the guy who asked to go ahead of me in the immigration line so he could make it to his kid's birthday, you can wait your damn turn.
You guys have all just reinforced Swoop, and ensured that a flood of Encore pilots will be going there and continuing the terrible working conditions. You've undermined your best opportunity to improve things for members of your own bargaining group. I'll be looking for work elsewhere now, but in the meantime I'm seriously considering going to Swoop and doing whatever I can to help get thirty tails moved over from WestJet. If management has trouble crewing all those planes, I'll work 26 days a month to stick it to you. Then I'm going to go work for one of your competitors and help them wear down WestJet from the outside. I hope Onex guts you.
A very emotional post, and clearly not indicative of how you're going to go about your business. Once you calm down you'll realize that you won't be going down the path of screwing WJ for the rest of your career.


People like you are toxic to this industry. Many Encore Pilots still have more experience than some of the people hired direct as OTS. 6 years ago, you think we were hiring instructors? This is the first year that’s happened that the industry has taken a dive and those instructors weren’t looking st flow for another 4-5years. Even those 23yo Captains glorifying Captains have more integrity than scum like you.

Thank you for giving success to Swoop.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan »

doiwannabeapilot wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 3:14 pm So.......Old commercial pilot was right after all ???
Uh, no.
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan »

tps8903 wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:04 pm
Barney wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 4:08 pm Sorry to all the Encore folks. Look on the bright side at least you still have a guaranteed job at mainline with flow and the top up pay which helps big time on the first two years. All in all its still not that bad when you think about it from that perspective.

Your career progression is still intact and looks like Onex wants to grow internationally which will create lots of movement.

Act professionally out there you never know what will happen next in this industry.
Technically flow died with the one list. It's up to the Company and the Encore MEC to negotiate a new Flow LOU. Hopefully we get this done sooner than later and hopefully the company will increase the flow amount.
I see this happening pretty quick. With the one list off the table, WJ has an opportunity to sweeten the pot at Encore to attract and retain and increase the flow. WJ MEC will have no say in this thanks to the FU 54% of the mainline pilots gave, but I bet the Encore guys are happy to play ball.

How Ironic: There's no reason to go back to the WJ mainline pilots to renegotiate if they can get it done with Encore. Methinks some peeps overestimated the mainline bargaining position. For what? Alienation of Encore pilots and a loss of unity and solidarity for starters.
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Re: One list

Post by Mr. North »

GATRKGA get off your high horse!! Who gives a fiddlers f*ck what the industry was like 6 years ago! It doesn't matter who or in what way people climbed seniority in the past. Categorising Encore pilots as 5 bar Instagram warriors flies in the face of all the high time, older professionals working here. All of witch were ROBBED by none other than their PEERS at MAINLINE!

May I remind all of you that Encore pilots went from ZERO to CERTIFIED in near record time, the speed and vigour in which this was done was to protect the SENIORITY LIST. The seniority list wasn't a casualty of negotiations or arbitration (as it certainly could have been), no it was MAINLINE PILOTS who voted against their own!

500+ pilots outright robbed of their seniority and all the financial and lifestyle benefits that go with it!
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Re: One list

Post by tps8903 »

Gear Jerker wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:12 pm This is incorrect, flow doesn't change. The one list pertained to respecting DOH at the Westjet Group seniority. It now looks like a traditional airline structure with flow to the bottom of the list. ie 6 month Encore FO's who flowed to Swoop FO a year ago will have seniority over the 5 year Encore training captain who flows to Westjet. You guys happy?
Section 3 of the One List Agreement was the mechanism for flow between all the parties (Swoop, Mainline and Encore). So it is correct. What section of the Encore TA talks about Flow?

This isn't to say the company won't respect it, it just means it's not written anywhere, and until it is, it's uncertain.
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Last edited by tps8903 on Tue May 14, 2019 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan »

KAG wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:16 pm There is already a ground swell of wj no voting pilots who want it reworked and re voted. Fix one simple aspect- reverse flow if there are layoffs (as was in the original moa) and it will pass.
The one list is still wanted, and I expect a demand for tweaking. Dont freak out just yet.
Yup. Should be TOTALLY easy to fix that right up, with the 3 companies just agreeing to all that potential extra training pay, and all the other consequences that come along with "pure seniority" Should be done in like, a week or something. :roll:

That original MOA would likely have never survived a stress test in the event of a layoff. Already was mentioned that if you want pure up and down, there are issues with jet guys getting stuck on the Q when there are recalls to mainline due to sr encore guys, not to mention the effect on jet guys if encore lays off.
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Re: One list

Post by bob99 »

tps8903 wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:37 pm
Gear Jerker wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:12 pm This is incorrect, flow doesn't change. The one list pertained to respecting DOH at the Westjet Group seniority. It now looks like a traditional airline structure with flow to the bottom of the list. ie 6 month Encore FO's who flowed to Swoop FO a year ago will have seniority over the 5 year Encore training captain who flows to Westjet. You guys happy?
Section 3 of the One List Agreement was the mechanism for flow between all the parties (Swoop, Mainline and Encore). So it is correct. What section of the Encore TA talks about Flow?
THIS!!

Flow is not in the Encore contract, it's in the one list loa that was rejected!
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Re: One list

Post by Barney »

Maybe Encore will get a retention bonus now like Porter. Stay for 3 years get 50K.
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Re: One list

Post by flyinhigh »

Oh it’s not just in the LOU. There is another document that was agreed to prior to this going to the pilot group for a vote to show that the company and the encore pilots are in favour of the flow agreement. Now that the one list has failed, this document will come into play.
bob99 wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:42 pm Flow is not in the Encore contract, it's in the one list loa that was rejected!
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Re: One list

Post by SPR »

Barney wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 4:08 pm Sorry to all the Encore folks. Look on the bright side at least you still have a guaranteed job at mainline with flow and the top up pay which helps big time on the first two years. All in all its still not that bad when you think about it from that perspective.

Your career progression is still intact and looks like Onex wants to grow internationally which will create lots of movement.

Act professionally out there you never know what will happen next in this industry.
Why in the f uck would I spend two more years supporting WestJet pilots' paycheques, just to start again at the bottom of the seniority list, when I could go anywhere else and start accruing seniority today?
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Re: One list

Post by SPR »

GATRKGA wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:13 pm For what it's worth, you guys at Encore are still way ahead where you would have been before the existence of Encore. Which don't forget, was only 6 years ago. Back then all you 1000 hour instructors would have been flying to fort skin john, loading bags in -30 wind chill and "paying" your dues before Jazz or any of the sort would even look at you. Now, at 1000 hours you're privy to a cushy airline gig, a cup of coffee being served to you, and an APU blasting air conditioned bleed air, where instead of spending 5 years trying to get recognized in the industry, with a frozen attitude indicator in a King Air after a stand up in YMM, you've already been recognized and are well on your way to a legacy mainline job without question in 4-5 years.
While something was taken away from you, and feelings of betrayal are real, you still have it better than how it used to be. Not that I think this is a metric that you should pump your chest about, but gives you a reality check as to where you would have been only 6 years ago had you not been employed at a company like Encore.
I did my time in the Arctic, years before Encore existed, so shove it up your ass. I don't give a shit how bad things used to be, I care about my career progression in the present.
A very emotional post, and clearly not indicative of how you're going to go about your business. Once you calm down you'll realize that you won't be going down the path of screwing WJ for the rest of your career.
No. As long as there's no One List, I will treat WestJet pilots as adversaries in every way possible. I'll be keeping a tally of how many I deny the jumpseat, so check back with me in a year and find out how many it was.
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Re: One list

Post by KAG »

SPR wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 7:03 pm
GATRKGA wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:13 pm For what it's worth, you guys at Encore are still way ahead where you would have been before the existence of Encore. Which don't forget, was only 6 years ago. Back then all you 1000 hour instructors would have been flying to fort skin john, loading bags in -30 wind chill and "paying" your dues before Jazz or any of the sort would even look at you. Now, at 1000 hours you're privy to a cushy airline gig, a cup of coffee being served to you, and an APU blasting air conditioned bleed air, where instead of spending 5 years trying to get recognized in the industry, with a frozen attitude indicator in a King Air after a stand up in YMM, you've already been recognized and are well on your way to a legacy mainline job without question in 4-5 years.
While something was taken away from you, and feelings of betrayal are real, you still have it better than how it used to be. Not that I think this is a metric that you should pump your chest about, but gives you a reality check as to where you would have been only 6 years ago had you not been employed at a company like Encore.
I did my time in the Arctic, years before Encore existed, so shove it up your ass. I don't give a shit how bad things used to be, I care about my career progression in the present.
A very emotional post, and clearly not indicative of how you're going to go about your business. Once you calm down you'll realize that you won't be going down the path of screwing WJ for the rest of your career.
No. As long as there's no One List, I will treat WestJet pilots as adversaries in every way possible. I'll be keeping a tally of how many I deny the jumpseat, so check back with me in a year and find out how many it was.
I get you're pissed, you have every right to be. But dont shoot yourself in the foot. Take a deep breath and see what shakes out in short order.
Look at it this way. The company wants this as it's a big part of why pilots apply to encore - it's not for the stellar wawcon. They need this as much as you want it.
Even though WJ pilots voted no, it was by a slim majority, and it was wording not intent that this failed. The combined pilot groups can (and will) mandate the union somthing be done, and I think it will. I truly do.
All I ask is before you go Rambo on the flight deck ban, just see what the next few days bring.

Hurtin.. yeah AC doesnt ever retrain at horrendous cost. Unheard of right?
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Re: One list

Post by countdown »

To call the WJ MEC completely incompetent is just far, far to kind. It's been a sh!t show from the get go.
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Re: One list

Post by DirtyDashDriver »

Guys, let's throw some Halon on the fire here. Just the one bottle for now.

All of us Encore pilots are incensed, and rightly so. For many of you, this might be your first bit of disappointment in your career. For those of us a little longer in the aviation tooth, it's par for course in our 10, 15, or almost 20-year careers. I've come to find career disappointment a constant, common companion. It comes around every once in a while to remind me I should have chosen a better year to be born.

Yes GATRKGA, there are those of us at Encore who trained in the mid-to-late '90s and got caught out by 9/11, recessions, and near every other downturn in the industry since then. We gave penance to the aviation gods by working ramps, getting screamed at by northern chief pilots, and attending more funerals than we would care to remember. But, I guess it is easier to lump us all together by the lowest common denominator, just as many Encore pilots are grouping all WestJet pilots. When I applied, I was told hiring directly to WestJet was all but done and you could only get in by coming through Encore. I was told this was WestJet Policy. I suppose I should have rubbed my crystal ball a little harder that day rather than listen to the people who were purported to be "in the know." Now that I think of it, the rabbit tail in my car was a little dirty that day as I had nothing else to rub through the tea leaves I was using on top of the Ouija board. Maybe I'll use a little less incense next time.

I would ask that us "Encorians" temper our reactions. At least for a little while. Every WestJet pilot I've spoken with today has indicated their desire to have another go at this LOU. While a small sample size I grant you, the same sentiment is being shown here and on Yammer by a few. I can only assume Facebook is the bastion of hope.

While the WJ MEC stated they would not revisit the LOU, they don't get to say that if a majority of the pilot group they represent demand the MEC goes back to the table on our behalf (and theirs!). That's what representation is all about, despite what our politicians try and show us daily.

The failure of the LOU does not have to be the end of the discussion, but boy will it be if we keep saying they've betrayed us and continue to attack them.

The best thing we can do is try and get over the emotion (yes, pot calling the kettle black, easier said than done, do what I say, not what I do) and pull together one last time. We're going to feel a right bag of dicks if they pull through for us with a new LOU that respects our seniority and permits a two-way street for movement.

But to paraphrase Congreve: Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, nor hell a fury like a pilot scorned.
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