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Jep
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Re: One list

Post by Jep » Wed May 15, 2019 8:12 pm

KAG wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:19 pm
Jep wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:05 pm
Biff wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:11 pm


No worries buddy, even the best lawyers are wrong from time to time!🤪
Regardless, I don’t think anyone at encore appreciates the indignity of have their careers used as pawns in a chess match!
Lol man that's every worker in every field ever. Get used to it unless you're the CEO.
Maybe so! And if that what you need to tell yourself so you don’t lose sleep at night then all the power to you! It’s not the first time I’ve drawn the short straw.

On another note, I do appreciate the show of support after. yesterday. I get the sense that many Wj pilots were as shocked as we were... maybe the 400 or so who did’t vote!

I am also encouraged that all sides will continue to rework the language, but I’m not so certain that it will be that easy. A common Employer application to the CIRB sounds like a great idea, and maybe I’m crazy to think this, but I have a feeling that a ratified “one list” Lou would have only strengthened our chances of success. Instead we are going to the CIRB with a recently rejected Lou! In any case, all these things could have been worked on and improved after the one list loa was passed and our seniority was secured. Now instead of having something to lose, we have to fight to get it back!

I would feel much better about all this if we drafted a grandfather clause loa that grandfathered everyone’s seniority that is on the property today. Thereafter, apply for common employer, negotiate a proper one list etc!

Seems simple enough to me. At least then we would t be pawns! But I guess I should just get used to it!
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Al Borlin
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Re: One list

Post by Al Borlin » Wed May 15, 2019 10:24 pm

Grandfather the whole thing!

Pilots on property now joined under the precedent, yes. But there is no benefit in continuing this silly carrot chasing perk.

Carrying your seniority is only a benefit because you get to bump experienced WJ OTS pilots once you arrive.

No line cutting= Guys/gals will think twice before taking an encore FO pay hit and stay with better compensating 703/704/705 carriers causing encore to up their game. At the end of the day, this is a recruitment tool.
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Re: One list

Post by Jean-Pierre » Thu May 16, 2019 3:52 am

No grandfathering, no re-voting. You lost. Brexit did not pass because people were tricked. Trump did not win because of Russia collusion. Why can modern liberal-type not accept the result of a vote?
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Re: One list

Post by KAG » Thu May 16, 2019 4:08 am

Jean-Pierre wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:52 am
No grandfathering, no re-voting. You lost. Brexit did not pass because people were tricked. Trump did not win because of Russia collusion. Why can modern liberal-type not accept the result of a vote?
Last I checked it's us Gen Xers demanding we tweak what we voted no to, not the encore pilots.
Nice click bait troll response though.

In all seriousness, there are a lot of former jazz pilots circa mid 2000s here, I'm one. Its was so bad there atmosphere wise and we do not want that here. Tweak it, revote, it'll pass.
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Last edited by KAG on Thu May 16, 2019 4:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: One list

Post by GATRKGA » Thu May 16, 2019 4:19 am

JBI wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:37 pm
GATRKGA wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:30 am

[...]

Because if that was the case, you guys would not have favored 92% of that TA. Had there actually existed an experienced demographic that could provide these kids with a voice of reason, you would have educated your youth on how voting in such a contract could easily backfire pending the one-list vote. And it did. For the record, I've studied your TA immensely. You guys voted 92% in favor based on a gamble of the one-list vote coming through for you; a vote that wasn't set to close until weeks after your TA vote was due. And it so turns out that the one list vote was rejected. While this may all be perceived as WJ pilots betrayal, it actually isn't. They have a very fair point in rejecting the one list based on improper reduction language. Is it at all considered that the WJ pilots were the ones that favored in the first version of one list? Believe me when I tell you that WJ pilots did not do this as a slap in your face. Something serious was on the line, and reduction language is huge. How could it not be a big deal to not have reduction language? So you get to bypass a bunch of 737 drivers today to upgrade, but you can't reduce in order of seniority? Wtf? Give your head a shake! You Encore drivers jumped the gun and voted in favor anyway, fully well knowing that one-list hadn't been solved. And now you've shorted yourself of a clear bargaining power simply because you didn't send the MEC back to the table for a better TA with one list language clarified.
Biff will give me a hard time for spouting my lawyering credentials, but hopefully he'll spare me this one last time (and there's more to come below which he'll like).

As someone who has been in the aviation industry for over 20 years (including working the ramp and freezing my ass off in the arctic) has been an aviation lawyer, has negotiated settlement agreements, given legal seminars to pilots, has drafted submissions that are in the final reports of TSB documents and spoken at conferences about aviation careers and was kept abreast of the entire process, you don't know what hell you're talking about. Understanding the challenging relationship between 3 companies, 2 bargaining units, an intersecting LOA and moving parts is far more complicated than simply reviewing our TA. The different duties of care and conditions of the Canadian Labour Code is extremely complex. Being able to fly a e175 at SKY is good and I honestly wish you the best of luck in your career, but to suggest that you've 'studied immensely' and then to spout the next few lines proves that you don't actually know what you don't know. That's the most dangerous type of experience.

Now, for Biff and ex-DC10 driver and sarg, it looks like I have been proven wrong that even after a failed LOA, the WJ MEC is looking at different options and wording. I'm happy to be wrong on this. I hope that we can continue working on this to protect pilot unity at WestJet.

Cheers
Haha, never get in an argument with a lawyer that also is a pilot. You have two things going against you lol.

Even with your credentials, you haven’t answered one thing. Was there a gun to your head to vote in favour of this TA? Because what’s at stake here is ultimately the terrible outcome that is your one list. It doesn’t take a person with your supposed credentials to figure that out. But I do appreciate you opening our eyes up to some of the legal issues in front of you. That was interesting to read. See I don’t bite, and unlike your unwarranted comment at my dangerous experience, experience has taught me to hold my beliefs loosely, and if there’s a better way to view or look at something, be open to being stood correctly. Experience has also taught me another thing. Those WJ pilots were never selling their youth. Look, they have already drafted a common employer proposal. Kind of supports my point of view that they aren’t in this to betray you.

Clearly you guys seem to have a decent response from the MEC/LEC to do something about this so let’s see what comes from that.

I wouldn’t want to be an encore guy, and feel for you guys. I hope this is sorted out.

Good luck guys!
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Re: One list

Post by skybaron » Thu May 16, 2019 5:06 am

I reckon this vote had ZERO to do with the so called language with the LOA, and more to do with the OTS influencing the masses with their BS. Yes, all mainline folks are disgruntled because of the Kaplan shit show, and those that voted against their brothers just had to display a temper tantrum. Piss poor unity WESTJET.

The ironic thing is that the 737 groundschools were a blend of OTS and Encore. And it’s the same fellas you shared your training with, had beers with, that end up bending you over because they’re trying to jump a line they knew existed when they were so eager to be a part of the koolaid machine.

It sucks, but there’s no way this would’ve been voted down had WJ FLOWED 100% Encore from the beginning. That’s right, the company needs to share the blame here.

Oh, and any WJ mainline thinking of crossing to AC or anywhere else in our dominion - GOOD LUCK - your name is sewered because of your character. Don’t need more of that cancer infiltrating everywhere else.

Again -

F@CK YOU WJ Mainline.
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Re: One list

Post by bob99 » Thu May 16, 2019 5:26 am

KAG,
if wording was the issue, why not rework it and put it to another vote? Common employee is a pipe dream and could take months to years before there's an answer. Did the company agree to it?
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Re: One list

Post by KAG » Thu May 16, 2019 5:26 am

Skybarron, pull your head out of your a$$.
I'm a mainline cpt, I voted no Purely because of the lack of 2 way flow. I chat with a lot of my peers and can say with confidence we want this. No OTS tiny minority that wants this. That's just as stupid as the wjpa supporters saying we were tricked by a bitter few when we certified.

Ya want to continue this conversation feel free to PM me. But seriously bud calm the F down.

Or your a troll and trying to cause discontent. Shame on me for taking the bait.
If you are an encore pilot simmer down because you're hurting your cause.
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Last edited by KAG on Thu May 16, 2019 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One list

Post by KAG » Thu May 16, 2019 5:27 am

bob99 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 5:26 am
KAG,
if wording was the issue, why not rework it and put it to another vote? Common employee is a pipe dream and could take months to years before there's an answer. Did the company agree to it?
Totally agree, let's start with rewording now and finish with common employer later
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Re: One list

Post by Stratopaused » Thu May 16, 2019 6:04 am

We appreciate the effort in filing for common employer, and succeeding there would vastly exceed our eldest dreams, but we aren't holding our collective breath on that. It could take years, and still be rejected, leaving us right back where we are now. The only way to mend the divide between Encore and WestJet (and to keep Encore operating smoothly feeding guests into the WestJet network so that the airline as a whole succeeds) is to keep working on an LOA, so that we aren't left in limbo while the common employer application makes its way through the CIRB process. The book-offs over the last couple of days showed how vulnerable Encore is to staffing instabilities, and a quick resolution is essential to preventing permanent damage here.
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Re: One list

Post by FlyYYC » Thu May 16, 2019 10:08 am

How can there be a one list for two separate companies. Unions are paid to protect their members. A one list does not do that. It's awful how this has all gone down but I just don't see how this could ever survive without at least the common employer status. Not everyone who voted no cared about the "wording". This is from a previous encore pilot who stands to lose fyi. I do not blame OTS pilots or mainline pilots. This is the company itself.
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Re: One list

Post by Stratopaused » Thu May 16, 2019 10:24 am

FlyYYC wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:08 am
How can there be a one list for two separate companies.
...
...With an LOA agreed to by all parties...
Where have you been this whole time?
WestJet and Swoop are technically two separate companies, and yet they have not only a common list but common employer status. That's because everyone agreed to the situation before arbitration began. All that's needed to have a common list with Encore is for all parties to be in agreement.
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Re: One list

Post by Barney » Thu May 16, 2019 8:57 pm

FlyYYC wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:08 am
How can there be a one list for two separate companies. Unions are paid to protect their members. A one list does not do that. It's awful how this has all gone down but I just don't see how this could ever survive without at least the common employer status. Not everyone who voted no cared about the "wording". This is from a previous encore pilot who stands to lose fyi. I do not blame OTS pilots or mainline pilots. This is the company itself.
I agree Grandfather everyone in at mainline first and then go common employer.
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Re: One list

Post by brooks » Thu May 16, 2019 9:18 pm

Everybody stays as is and going forward make two lists. If Encore is going to start hiring 500 hr instructors who will be more senior than the OTS hire with Jet time and experience at mainline it will not end well.
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Re: One list

Post by Jep » Fri May 17, 2019 12:47 am

brooks wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:18 pm
Everybody stays as is and going forward make two lists. If Encore is going to start hiring 500 hr instructors who will be more senior than the OTS hire with Jet time and experience at mainline it will not end well.
Do any other companies slot people into their seniority list based on experience? While WJ and Encore may be two different companies on paper the pilot group has always been on one list since shortly after Encore started. The majority of pilots at both companies support the spirit of the one list. Why should that change. Why do you feel so entitled? Do you not think there are many guys/gals at encore with significant experience? Should seniority only count when you meet a minimum threshold of experience?

Nobody will get upgraded if they don’t meet the requirements for experience, knowledge and ability to manage an aircraft of any type. I know people are getting hired at mainline OTS who have less than half the time/experience that I had when I started at Encore. I guess it’s my fault for making poor choices!
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Re: One list

Post by brooks » Fri May 17, 2019 5:42 am

It’s not about entitlement. It’s about attracting experienced pilots to mainline and retaining them. If there ever isn’t a need for OTS hires than it will all come from Encore and you have nothing to worry about.

The majority of pilots just voted for 2 lists so I don’t know where you get that idea from. Sure it wasn’t a landslide but a vote is a vote. If they want to tweak it than I propose 2 lists going forward.
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Re: One list

Post by #37 » Fri May 17, 2019 8:26 am

brooks wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:42 am
It’s not about entitlement. It’s about attracting experienced pilots to mainline and retaining them. If there ever isn’t a need for OTS hires than it will all come from Encore and you have nothing to worry about.

The majority of pilots just voted for 2 lists so I don’t know where you get that idea from. Sure it wasn’t a landslide but a vote is a vote. If they want to tweak it than I propose 2 lists going forward.
Two list helps nobody, and certainly increases the grief for mainline pilots EVERY time they go to negotiate anything.
Tie the groups together, and together have way more leverage.
Mainline doesn't "need experienced" pilots. It needs a flow of pilots and the pilots coming off the top of Encore have more than enough experience.
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Re: One list

Post by Jep » Fri May 17, 2019 9:13 am

brooks wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:42 am
The majority of pilots just voted for 2 lists so I don’t know where you get that idea from. Sure it wasn’t a landslide but a vote is a vote. If they want to tweak it than I propose 2 lists going forward.
I didn’t just make it up if that’s what you think! Your forgetting(or maybe never knew) that in the past 5 years, all surveys/votes wrt the “one list” at WJ consistently polled in the mid 80%! Dropping to 46% overnight indicates a different problem. There is a large voice in the wake of the no vote calling for the Loa to be reworded and every encore pilot has received an overwhelming show of reassurance from the WJ pilots.

Maybe it will come to two lists in the end but I think you will find yourself in the minority if you don’t think those already on the property should at least have their seniority protected first!
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Re: One list

Post by Stratopaused » Fri May 17, 2019 11:33 am

brooks wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:18 pm
Everybody stays as is and going forward make two lists. If Encore is going to start hiring 500 hr instructors who will be more senior than the OTS hire with Jet time and experience at mainline it will not end well.
So shouldn't we be doing whatever we can to make Encore desirable for more experienced candidates? There are plenty of former jet pilots, including 737 captains, and 705 turboprop captains who came to Encore specifically because of the One List. On the other hand, mainline has been hiring OTS pilots who only have experience on light props, like Metros, so why should they have seniority over a 10000-hour 737 ACP who ended up at Encore because of a series of bad luck? That 737 pilot has been contributing to WestJet's success and is familiar with the company's policies and procedures, but can't even apply at mainline; all they can do is wait for flow. Is that fair?
Without the One List to attract experienced pilots, Encore's hour requirement will keep dropping, which will make for a less-efficient and less-safe operation. If you want Encore to continue feeding passengers onto your jets, then Encore needs to maintain staffing levels, and losing the One LIst will have the opposite effect. Current pilots are going to leave in droves, and the only new applicants will be low-timers; the aircraft that will still be flying will be less safe and operated less efficiently because of it. Management is aware of the problem and is pushing to find a resolution; the only ones who don't seem to understand this are mainline pilots. If Encore isn't carrying connecting passengers from Regina, Kamloops, and Moncton, WestJet won't be able to fill 787s going to Dublin and Paris every single day, or even maintain the number of 737 flights that are currently in operation. Without Encore, WestJet would shrink back to pre-2013 levels, operating point-to-point services only in those markets large enough to maintain jet service. It would be really ironic if WestJet pilots ended up getting laid off because they voted down the LOA due to a lack of layoff protection!
Speaking of contributing to WestJet's success, Encore pilots have been the lowest-paid regional pilots in Canada for the last six years, and the CBA will contribute that trend for captains, because we assumed that we would make up the difference with quicker upgrades at WestJet. (I know, I know, shame on us for trusting other pilots to do something that doesn't benefit them) We are helping the company's profitability by keeping costs low through our wages. Every mainline pilot is directly profiting off of us with every ESPP purchase and every profit share cheque. We're working eighteen days a month, and you're making money of our backs. If you're going to take away hundreds of thousands in captain wages from us, then you'd better start petitioning management to raise our wages in compensation. If you're so dead-set on Encore pilots not sharing seniority, then you're taking money directly from us.
The One LIst is the best way to maintain staffing levels at Encore, and steady operations at Encore are essential for WestJet to operate at its current size. The One List is good for every pilot at WestJet, even the OTS pilots who stand to gain seniority, because they'll be the first ones laid off if the company contracts. If you oppose it, you're profiting off of our backs and helping to deprive us of future compensation, and we won't stand for that for too long.
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Re: One list

Post by tbaylx » Fri May 17, 2019 1:46 pm

Maybe rethink a broken system that puts a 10 000 hour B737 ACP at Encore in the first place?
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Re: One list

Post by Stratopaused » Fri May 17, 2019 2:30 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:46 pm
Maybe rethink a broken system that puts a 10 000 hour B737 ACP at Encore in the first place?
That's on the company. For years, they told applicants that the only way into WestJet was through Encore, and now that those experienced pilots are waiting for flow the company is hiring 2000-hour light turboprop pilots. No one at Encore has the option to apply for positions at WestJet that are open to external candidates. The poster above wants to discard the One List based on the faulty assumption that everyone at Encore is a 500-hour instructor, but every captain here has more experience than some of the recent WestJet hires. Not all of us have 737 time, but nor do most of the OTS pilots, and we have years of experience working in the WestJet system. If that experience counts for nothing, and WestJet pilots don't consider me any better than a 1500-hour OTS pilot with the ink still wet on their ATPL, then I don't see much point in contributing to their financial well-being any longer.
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Re: One list

Post by tbaylx » Fri May 17, 2019 2:50 pm

Stratopaused wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 2:30 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:46 pm
Maybe rethink a broken system that puts a 10 000 hour B737 ACP at Encore in the first place?
That's on the company. For years, they told applicants that the only way into WestJet was through Encore, and now that those experienced pilots are waiting for flow the company is hiring 2000-hour light turboprop pilots. No one at Encore has the option to apply for positions at WestJet that are open to external candidates. The poster above wants to discard the One List based on the faulty assumption that everyone at Encore is a 500-hour instructor, but every captain here has more experience than some of the recent WestJet hires. Not all of us have 737 time, but nor do most of the OTS pilots, and we have years of experience working in the WestJet system. If that experience counts for nothing, and WestJet pilots don't consider me any better than a 1500-hour OTS pilot with the ink still wet on their ATPL, then I don't see much point in contributing to their financial well-being any longer.

I don't blame you. All things being equal (similar experience levels) then the guy who's been there longest should have first crack.
However it's a ridiculous system that forces high time jet guys to come in through encore. One that doesn't benefit the company or pilots. It's a shame ALPA is hell bent on an out of date broken seniority system.

The Transat/AC thing, if it comes to pass, will no doubt show how screwed up it is and once again demonstrate how ridiculous supposedly grown men can be towards each other.
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Re: One list

Post by lostaviator » Fri May 17, 2019 7:20 pm

Why should loyal employees be subject to anything other then seniority/yos? Your experience (hours) mean nothing to me, but your experience (jumping around) sure says a lot.

The company has never said “the only way into WestJet is through encore”. WestJet has had job postings every year since the founding of Encore.

We all plot our own path through this industry, and we all get into it knowing how it works.
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Re: One list

Post by .80@410 » Fri May 17, 2019 10:40 pm

Stratopaused wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:33 am
brooks wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:18 pm
Everybody stays as is and going forward make two lists. If Encore is going to start hiring 500 hr instructors who will be more senior than the OTS hire with Jet time and experience at mainline it will not end well.
So shouldn't we be doing whatever we can to make Encore desirable for more experienced candidates? There are plenty of former jet pilots, including 737 captains, and 705 turboprop captains who came to Encore specifically because of the One List. On the other hand, mainline has been hiring OTS pilots who only have experience on light props, like Metros, so why should they have seniority over a 10000-hour 737 ACP who ended up at Encore because of a series of bad luck? That 737 pilot has been contributing to WestJet's success and is familiar with the company's policies and procedures, but can't even apply at mainline; all they can do is wait for flow. Is that fair?
Without the One List to attract experienced pilots, Encore's hour requirement will keep dropping, which will make for a less-efficient and less-safe operation. If you want Encore to continue feeding passengers onto your jets, then Encore needs to maintain staffing levels, and losing the One LIst will have the opposite effect. Current pilots are going to leave in droves, and the only new applicants will be low-timers; the aircraft that will still be flying will be less safe and operated less efficiently because of it. Management is aware of the problem and is pushing to find a resolution; the only ones who don't seem to understand this are mainline pilots. If Encore isn't carrying connecting passengers from Regina, Kamloops, and Moncton, WestJet won't be able to fill 787s going to Dublin and Paris every single day, or even maintain the number of 737 flights that are currently in operation. Without Encore, WestJet would shrink back to pre-2013 levels, operating point-to-point services only in those markets large enough to maintain jet service. It would be really ironic if WestJet pilots ended up getting laid off because they voted down the LOA due to a lack of layoff protection!
Speaking of contributing to WestJet's success, Encore pilots have been the lowest-paid regional pilots in Canada for the last six years, and the CBA will contribute that trend for captains, because we assumed that we would make up the difference with quicker upgrades at WestJet. (I know, I know, shame on us for trusting other pilots to do something that doesn't benefit them) We are helping the company's profitability by keeping costs low through our wages. Every mainline pilot is directly profiting off of us with every ESPP purchase and every profit share cheque. We're working eighteen days a month, and you're making money of our backs. If you're going to take away hundreds of thousands in captain wages from us, then you'd better start petitioning management to raise our wages in compensation. If you're so dead-set on Encore pilots not sharing seniority, then you're taking money directly from us.
The One LIst is the best way to maintain staffing levels at Encore, and steady operations at Encore are essential for WestJet to operate at its current size. The One List is good for every pilot at WestJet, even the OTS pilots who stand to gain seniority, because they'll be the first ones laid off if the company contracts. If you oppose it, you're profiting off of our backs and helping to deprive us of future compensation, and we won't stand for that for too long.
Great post .

And no. Not shame on you . Shame on us for letting you down. I hope we are able to turn that around .
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Re: One list

Post by Jep » Sat May 18, 2019 12:31 am

lostaviator wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 7:20 pm
Why should loyal employees be subject to anything other then seniority/yos? Your experience (hours) mean nothing to me, but your experience (jumping around) sure says a lot.

The company has never said “the only way into WestJet is through encore”. WestJet has had job postings every year since the founding of Encore.

We all plot our own path through this industry, and we all get into it knowing how it works.
Not too sure what your point is here. I agree with your first paragraph but you lost me after that. I personally know half a dozen guys who were specifically told in their interview that there would be no more Westjet postings and that all Westjet Pilots would come from encore only to find out that they had been misled by Hr.

We all plot our own path through this industry, but everyone makes the best choice for themselves at the time with the information they are given. Every pilot I know worked hard to get where they are regardless of how many times they have been knocked down by this industry whether they are a 1000hr instructor or a 10000 hr seasoned bush pilot! Some people have families to think about, others are just chasing metal! That doesn’t make it ok for the rules to be changed half way through the game.

If you are trying to justify screwing over some encore pilots just to gain some seniority then I doubt you are willing to consider our frustrations with an open mind and it comes across as pretty selfish.

I have 8000hrs between two companies in 14 years... say what you want about my experience, but my loyalty should count for something!
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