One list

[SPR]

Sorry to all the Encore folks. Look on the bright side at least you still have a guaranteed job at mainline with flow and the top up pay which helps big time on the first two years. All in all its still not that bad when you think about it from that perspective.

Your career progression is still intact and looks like Onex wants to grow internationally which will create lots of movement.

Act professionally out there you never know what will happen next in this industry.

Why in the f uck would I spend two more years supporting WestJet pilots' paycheques, just to start again at the bottom of the seniority list, when I could go anywhere else and start accruing seniority today?

[SPR]

For what it's worth, you guys at Encore are still way ahead where you would have been before the existence of Encore. Which don't forget, was only 6 years ago. Back then all you 1000 hour instructors would have been flying to fort skin john, loading bags in -30 wind chill and "paying" your dues before Jazz or any of the sort would even look at you. Now, at 1000 hours you're privy to a cushy airline gig, a cup of coffee being served to you, and an APU blasting air conditioned bleed air, where instead of spending 5 years trying to get recognized in the industry, with a frozen attitude indicator in a King Air after a stand up in YMM, you've already been recognized and are well on your way to a legacy mainline job without question in 4-5 years.
While something was taken away from you, and feelings of betrayal are real, you still have it better than how it used to be. Not that I think this is a metric that you should pump your chest about, but gives you a reality check as to where you would have been only 6 years ago had you not been employed at a company like Encore.

I did my time in the Arctic, years before Encore existed, so shove it up your ass. I don't give a shit how bad things used to be, I care about my career progression in the present.

A very emotional post, and clearly not indicative of how you're going to go about your business. Once you calm down you'll realize that you won't be going down the path of screwing WJ for the rest of your career.

No. As long as there's no One List, I will treat WestJet pilots as adversaries in every way possible. I'll be keeping a tally of how many I deny the jumpseat, so check back with me in a year and find out how many it was.

[KAG]

For what it's worth, you guys at Encore are still way ahead where you would have been before the existence of Encore. Which don't forget, was only 6 years ago. Back then all you 1000 hour instructors would have been flying to fort skin john, loading bags in -30 wind chill and "paying" your dues before Jazz or any of the sort would even look at you. Now, at 1000 hours you're privy to a cushy airline gig, a cup of coffee being served to you, and an APU blasting air conditioned bleed air, where instead of spending 5 years trying to get recognized in the industry, with a frozen attitude indicator in a King Air after a stand up in YMM, you've already been recognized and are well on your way to a legacy mainline job without question in 4-5 years.
While something was taken away from you, and feelings of betrayal are real, you still have it better than how it used to be. Not that I think this is a metric that you should pump your chest about, but gives you a reality check as to where you would have been only 6 years ago had you not been employed at a company like Encore.

I did my time in the Arctic, years before Encore existed, so shove it up your ass. I don't give a shit how bad things used to be, I care about my career progression in the present.

A very emotional post, and clearly not indicative of how you're going to go about your business. Once you calm down you'll realize that you won't be going down the path of screwing WJ for the rest of your career.

No. As long as there's no One List, I will treat WestJet pilots as adversaries in every way possible. I'll be keeping a tally of how many I deny the jumpseat, so check back with me in a year and find out how many it was.

I get you're pissed, you have every right to be. But dont shoot yourself in the foot. Take a deep breath and see what shakes out in short order.
Look at it this way. The company wants this as it's a big part of why pilots apply to encore - it's not for the stellar wawcon. They need this as much as you want it.
Even though WJ pilots voted no, it was by a slim majority, and it was wording not intent that this failed. The combined pilot groups can (and will) mandate the union somthing be done, and I think it will. I truly do.
All I ask is before you go Rambo on the flight deck ban, just see what the next few days bring.

Hurtin.. yeah AC doesnt ever retrain at horrendous cost. Unheard of right?

[countdown]

To call the WJ MEC completely incompetent is just far, far to kind. It's been a sh!t show from the get go.

[DirtyDashDriver]

Guys, let's throw some Halon on the fire here. Just the one bottle for now.

All of us Encore pilots are incensed, and rightly so. For many of you, this might be your first bit of disappointment in your career. For those of us a little longer in the aviation tooth, it's par for course in our 10, 15, or almost 20-year careers. I've come to find career disappointment a constant, common companion. It comes around every once in a while to remind me I should have chosen a better year to be born.

Yes GATRKGA, there are those of us at Encore who trained in the mid-to-late '90s and got caught out by 9/11, recessions, and near every other downturn in the industry since then. We gave penance to the aviation gods by working ramps, getting screamed at by northern chief pilots, and attending more funerals than we would care to remember. But, I guess it is easier to lump us all together by the lowest common denominator, just as many Encore pilots are grouping all WestJet pilots. When I applied, I was told hiring directly to WestJet was all but done and you could only get in by coming through Encore. I was told this was WestJet Policy. I suppose I should have rubbed my crystal ball a little harder that day rather than listen to the people who were purported to be "in the know." Now that I think of it, the rabbit tail in my car was a little dirty that day as I had nothing else to rub through the tea leaves I was using on top of the Ouija board. Maybe I'll use a little less incense next time.

I would ask that us "Encorians" temper our reactions. At least for a little while. Every WestJet pilot I've spoken with today has indicated their desire to have another go at this LOU. While a small sample size I grant you, the same sentiment is being shown here and on Yammer by a few. I can only assume Facebook is the bastion of hope.

While the WJ MEC stated they would not revisit the LOU, they don't get to say that if a majority of the pilot group they represent demand the MEC goes back to the table on our behalf (and theirs!). That's what representation is all about, despite what our politicians try and show us daily.

The failure of the LOU does not have to be the end of the discussion, but boy will it be if we keep saying they've betrayed us and continue to attack them.

The best thing we can do is try and get over the emotion (yes, pot calling the kettle black, easier said than done, do what I say, not what I do) and pull together one last time. We're going to feel a right bag of dicks if they pull through for us with a new LOU that respects our seniority and permits a two-way street for movement.

But to paraphrase Congreve: Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, nor hell a fury like a pilot scorned.

[jedcat]

Sorry Encore, while the rest of the airlines are supporting one another for the progress of the industry, these parasites that call them selves pilots just took the WestJet brand back to the 90s. I came to the picket the WestJet pilots had last spring to give support and think I met just as many encore pilots as WestJet.

Encore stay strong out there.

WJ pilots, Just so I understand, your company allowed you to let your regional pilots hold seniority going into the major airline (something I think most of wish we had when we were at regionals) and you voted no?
please request different uniforms from Encore so I dont accidently spit on one of them mistaking Encore for WJ and when your in the terminal and get the feeling that the AC, Jazz and transit pilots are judging you, you can trust your instincts. I'm sure this news will make it's way to the states too aren't ya'll ALPA?

[Impact]

For the 400 of you that did not vote... shame on you. You are almost worse than the people who voted to dispel this LOU. We know it didn’t affect you that much but it affected all the time we put into Encore waiting to join you on the other side.

Are you suggesting that I do not have the right to not vote, if that's what I choose to do?

I'm a little shocked that you would trample on my personal liberties as a result of you not achieving a result that was wished for.

[Yycjetdriver]

Sorry Encore, while the rest of the airlines are supporting one another for the progress of the industry, these parasites that call them selves pilots just took the WestJet brand back to the 90s. I came to the picket the WestJet pilots had last spring to give support and think I met just as many encore pilots as WestJet.

Encore stay strong out there.

WJ pilots, Just so I understand, your company allowed you to let your regional pilots hold seniority going into the major airline (something I think most of wish we had when we were at regionals) and you voted no?
please request different uniforms from Encore so I dont accidently spit on one of them mistaking Encore for WJ and when your in the terminal and get the feeling that the AC, Jazz and transit pilots are judging you, you can trust your instincts. I'm sure this news will make it's way to the states too aren't ya'll ALPA?

“The rest of the airlines in Canada are supporting one another” ahahaahaha. What rock are you living under?
Are you referring to the A scale senior Jazz guys that sold out and screwed anyone coming to Jazz on the B scale? Maybe you talking about the Georgian guys who worked under terrible WAWCON, driving down the CPA industry only to eventually join the very guys they helped screw.
The list goes on...
It’s fine and understandable if you hate what WJ Mainline guys did, but don’t act like it hasn’t been done in different ways by basically every other group.

[jedcat]

Sorry Encore, while the rest of the airlines are supporting one another for the progress of the industry, these parasites that call them selves pilots just took the WestJet brand back to the 90s. I came to the picket the WestJet pilots had last spring to give support and think I met just as many encore pilots as WestJet.

Encore stay strong out there.

WJ pilots, Just so I understand, your company allowed you to let your regional pilots hold seniority going into the major airline (something I think most of wish we had when we were at regionals) and you voted no?
please request different uniforms from Encore so I dont accidently spit on one of them mistaking Encore for WJ and when your in the terminal and get the feeling that the AC, Jazz and transit pilots are judging you, you can trust your instincts. I'm sure this news will make it's way to the states too aren't ya'll ALPA?

“The rest of the airlines in Canada are supporting one another” ahahaahaha. What rock are you living under?
Are you referring to the A scale senior Jazz guys that sold out and screwed anyone coming to Jazz on the B scale? Maybe you talking about the Georgian guys who worked under terrible WAWCON, driving down the CPA industry only to eventually join the very guys they helped screw.
The list goes on...
It’s fine and understandable if you hate what WJ Mainline guys did, but don’t act like it hasn’t been done in different ways by basically every other group.

First off I didnt say Canada so if you're going to quote someone dont add words, I think the majority of the Jazz pilots are happy that they have career progression into AC and are welcomed and have priority. Georgians gone and that's an improvement. You say the list goes on and on, but I'm just saying there is more support out there MEC's working together IE AC honoring your swoop hiring band. All the airlines in the states are working off each others contracts to improve, Regional to major transitions have been improving too. you guys just took a step backwards.

but maybe I'm wrong to be hopefull that things are improving but I'm not wrong about you fucking over your peers and I'll leave it at that

[GATRKGA]

It looks like I hit a bit of a nerve there with some of you. I am sorry for having offended you guys.

I have no problem with fast career progressions. If the training and mentorship can keep up with it, then it's a fantastic time for the generation behind us and I would love to see a system where we break away from having to attend our peers' funerals. Been to a handful of those myself. It sucks! All that being said, it still doesn't remove the fact that you guys still have it way better. How many Encore related funerals have you been to? 0. How do you connect this to me thinking that just cause my generation had to go through it, you do to? That is an assumption at best.

And no, of course, I don't think Encore is just made up of 23-year-olds with bare bone experience. But I also don't think that the majority of Encore is staffed with much experience. Because if that was the case, you guys would not have favored 92% of that TA. Had there actually existed an experienced demographic that could provide these kids with a voice of reason, you would have educated your youth on how voting in such a contract could easily backfire pending the one-list vote. And it did. For the record, I've studied your TA immensely. You guys voted 92% in favor based on a gamble of the one-list vote coming through for you; a vote that wasn't set to close until weeks after your TA vote was due. And it so turns out that the one list vote was rejected. While this may all be perceived as WJ pilots betrayal, it actually isn't. They have a very fair point in rejecting the one list based on improper reduction language. Is it at all considered that the WJ pilots were the ones that favored in the first version of one list? Believe me when I tell you that WJ pilots did not do this as a slap in your face. Something serious was on the line, and reduction language is huge. How could it not be a big deal to not have reduction language? So you get to bypass a bunch of 737 drivers today to upgrade, but you can't reduce in order of seniority? Wtf? Give your head a shake! You Encore drivers jumped the gun and voted in favor anyway, fully well knowing that one-list hadn't been solved. And now you've shorted yourself of a clear bargaining power simply because you didn't send the MEC back to the table for a better TA with one list language clarified.

I am so sorry that this truth is being exposed about your choices, but you are unfortunately surrounded by a very inexperienced paradigm, and as a result, you guys got the failure of a contract which you now have to sit there and dwell on for the next five years.

As adults, you make your own decisions with the information that you have in front of you. Would you risk going through a cell, even if it was reported as just heavy rain on the CANUC4 with an MSA of 14k? No. Would you risk voting in favor of a contract when you don't have the confirmed details of one list? No. Why? Cause it's a risky gamble. And you guys did exactly that. Gambled; resultantly, 92% of you got burned in a fair game of poker. Nobody held a gun to your head to vote in 92% in favor of that TA. You did that one all on your own.

Sorry, I struck a nerve with my initial post. I do want you guys to succeed over there at Encore. But you have to accept your current state of affairs before anything can be done about it. Banning your jumpseat won't do anything. Just as it won't do anything if you don't recognize that the majority of your Encore demographics are not as experienced in this industry to make informed decisions. 92% clearly indicates that most of your pilots haven't even been in the industry long enough to see what an economic slow down will look like. Let alone a system where gambling the next 5 years on a vote that hasn't even passed yet.

I hope the WestJetty culture you guys are known for provokes this situation to be made correct. And that this is all water under the bridge shortly. You guys are brothers and sisters going through a teenage brothel at the moment. It will all clear, and you guys can go back to enjoying some biscoff cookies and cranberry cocktails talking about what a fantastic profit share cheque you'll have!

I wish you guys the best. Good Luck!

[JBI]

[...]

Because if that was the case, you guys would not have favored 92% of that TA. Had there actually existed an experienced demographic that could provide these kids with a voice of reason, you would have educated your youth on how voting in such a contract could easily backfire pending the one-list vote. And it did. For the record, I've studied your TA immensely. You guys voted 92% in favor based on a gamble of the one-list vote coming through for you; a vote that wasn't set to close until weeks after your TA vote was due. And it so turns out that the one list vote was rejected. While this may all be perceived as WJ pilots betrayal, it actually isn't. They have a very fair point in rejecting the one list based on improper reduction language. Is it at all considered that the WJ pilots were the ones that favored in the first version of one list? Believe me when I tell you that WJ pilots did not do this as a slap in your face. Something serious was on the line, and reduction language is huge. How could it not be a big deal to not have reduction language? So you get to bypass a bunch of 737 drivers today to upgrade, but you can't reduce in order of seniority? Wtf? Give your head a shake! You Encore drivers jumped the gun and voted in favor anyway, fully well knowing that one-list hadn't been solved. And now you've shorted yourself of a clear bargaining power simply because you didn't send the MEC back to the table for a better TA with one list language clarified.

Biff will give me a hard time for spouting my lawyering credentials, but hopefully he'll spare me this one last time (and there's more to come below which he'll like).

As someone who has been in the aviation industry for over 20 years (including working the ramp and freezing my ass off in the arctic) has been an aviation lawyer, has negotiated settlement agreements, given legal seminars to pilots, has drafted submissions that are in the final reports of TSB documents and spoken at conferences about aviation careers and was kept abreast of the entire process, you don't know what hell you're talking about. Understanding the challenging relationship between 3 companies, 2 bargaining units, an intersecting LOA and moving parts is far more complicated than simply reviewing our TA. The different duties of care and conditions of the Canadian Labour Code is extremely complex. Being able to fly a e175 at SKY is good and I honestly wish you the best of luck in your career, but to suggest that you've 'studied immensely' and then to spout the next few lines proves that you don't actually know what you don't know. That's the most dangerous type of experience.

Now, for Biff and ex-DC10 driver and sarg, it looks like I have been proven wrong that even after a failed LOA, the WJ MEC is looking at different options and wording. I'm happy to be wrong on this. I hope that we can continue working on this to protect pilot unity at WestJet.

Cheers

[Mr. North]

Couldn't have said it better myself JBI. Anyone with a casual interest let alone someone who has "studied the TA immensely" would know that one bargaining unit cannot negotiate seniority onto a seperate bargaining unit. That was never a part of the equation and to suggest otherwise merely demonstrates one's failure to grasp the subject at hand. The 92% was a vote in favour of the contract as it pertained to Encore, full stop. The one list required a 5-way agreement (WJA, Swoop, Encore, WJ pilots, Encore pilots) that is outside of any individual contract, and which the company has stated from the beginning they would not sign until both contracts were in place.

Please refrain from calling the Encore pilot group immature and inexperienced when you yourself have demonstrated an inability to understand the dynamics at play.

[Rezy]

They have a very fair point in rejecting the one list based on improper reduction language. Is it at all considered that the WJ pilots were the ones that favored in the first version of one list? Believe me when I tell you that WJ pilots did not do this as a slap in your face. Something serious was on the line, and reduction language is huge. How could it not be a big deal to not have reduction language? So you get to bypass a bunch of 737 drivers today to upgrade, but you can't reduce in order of seniority? Wtf? Give your head a shake!

How does voting down the one list improve your reduction opportunities?
Can you now reduce into Encore?

[Biff]

Now, for Biff and ex-DC10 driver and sarg, it looks like I have been proven wrong that even after a failed LOA, the WJ MEC is looking at different options and wording. I'm happy to be wrong on this. I hope that we can continue working on this to protect pilot unity at WestJet.

Cheers

No worries buddy, even the best lawyers are wrong from time to time!

[tbayav8er]

So let's say the LOU gets fixed up with wording to protect certain things that you guys were concerned about (layoff protection, etc.)...Would you guys vote "yes" to it?

[Biff]

So let's say the LOU gets fixed up with wording to protect certain things that you guys were concerned about (layoff protection, etc.)...Would you guys vote "yes" to it?

I think we’re trying to mandate the MEC do something better than that. Hopefully the MEC’s will have a comm out soon

[tbayav8er]

Right on. Thanks!

So let's say the LOU gets fixed up with wording to protect certain things that you guys were concerned about (layoff protection, etc.)...Would you guys vote "yes" to it?

I think we’re trying to mandate the MEC do something better than that. Hopefully the MEC’s will have a comm out soon

[tkdowell]

So let's say the LOU gets fixed up with wording to protect certain things that you guys were concerned about (layoff protection, etc.)...Would you guys vote "yes" to it?

I think we’re trying to mandate the MEC do something better than that. Hopefully the MEC’s will have a comm out soon

Here it is:

Latest Update

15 May 2019

Fellow Pilots,

Yesterday, following the publication of the “One List” LOA ballot results, the MEC and LEC reps received an overwhelming response from our pilot membership indicating strong support of the “One List” concept. As a result, the MEC has decided to work with ALPA to commission a poll or survey in order to quickly gather additional information to determine why pilots voted to reject the proposal. This data will be used to both validate the response we are receiving and to determine next steps.

We recognize that the consequences of our pilots’ decisions have a large effect on pilot unity as a whole within the WestJet group so accordingly we have advised the Encore MEC and senior management that we are undertaking these steps. Both parties remain supportive of dialogue on “One List” LOA. We ask for your patience and professionalism while this task is organized in the coming days./p>

Sincerely,

Your MEC

[Jep]

Now, for Biff and ex-DC10 driver and sarg, it looks like I have been proven wrong that even after a failed LOA, the WJ MEC is looking at different options and wording. I'm happy to be wrong on this. I hope that we can continue working on this to protect pilot unity at WestJet.

Cheers

No worries buddy, even the best lawyers are wrong from time to time!

Regardless, I don’t think anyone at encore appreciates the indignity of have their careers used as pawns in a chess match!

[KAG]

So let's say the LOU gets fixed up with wording to protect certain things that you guys were concerned about (layoff protection, etc.)...Would you guys vote "yes" to it?

Yup. A true one list has movement in both directions. In the event of a layoff I want to know I get a left seat on the dash. Do I bump someone? Yup, dont care. I've been here longer. You get pay protected at AC so that's not out of the question here.
Name me one other airline in the north America where you as a regional pilot have seniority on the mainline list? I dont think there is one, but I'm open to be proven wrong.
Just having guaranteed flow is incredible in itself, but we want one list.
Now what hasn't been discussed and should be is the upcoming cadet program. That changes things. So maybe you need to be ATPL rated before you get into the seniority list as I'll be damned if I'm going to support a list that has fresh students getting seniority ahead of a solid experienced OTS pilots. I know this could drift into the 200 hour airline fo discussion, not my intention but this needs to be considered as the cadet program is in the works.
Anyway we got an ALPA flash that stated this is not dead. That they had "overwhelming support to fix the language" and that it's being looked into post haste.

So that said to my encore brothers and sisters - stay professional, stay strong, and don't shoot yourselves in the foot.