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doiwannabeapilot
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Re: One list

Post by doiwannabeapilot » Tue May 14, 2019 3:14 pm

So.......Old commercial pilot was right after all ???
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Re: One list

Post by pacman007 » Tue May 14, 2019 3:23 pm

Well sorry to hear the bad news encore pilots.. the good thing is there are plenty of jobs out there. I started in aviation 20 years ago and its never been a smooth ride. To the Westjet pilots all I can say is you can hang on to your jobs for dear life but layoffs are coming... The real damage will happen when the max comes online, for every Max that comes back you will see a tail go to Swoop. Just watching the news coverage of the ONEX deal, they clearly say they want to expand Swoop exponentially....
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Re: One list

Post by Freeport_Flyer » Tue May 14, 2019 3:32 pm

porcsord wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:01 pm
To preface this, I have no horse in this race. I don't work for WestJet or Encore, or have even the slightest desire to work for an airline. With that being said take the following piece of advice for what you paid for it:

Don't be bitter, don't go out of your way to hurt others. Stop people from getting home to their families because your number doesn't transfer over? Grow up. The world doesn't owe you anything, and like everything else in life get used to the fact that it isn't fair. If you hold that much resentment throughout your career, you're going to be a miserable C*** to fly with, and that misery will be noticeable outside work. You took a position at a company, they pay you for that position, and like everything else: Nothing Happens until it Happens, you gambled on one list and it didn't pan out, it's no different than investing in stocks, you hope it goes up, but it may also tank. If you don't like the result, apply elsewhere find another job, but don't carry your bitterness.

PC
To be fair, the "one list" was part of the deal when joining Encore. It had a defined structure and parameters. Now that it has been removed, arguably it has changed the fundamental basis of the employment direction and seniority of an Encore pilot. I would argue that it is now time for the Encore pilots to exercise their democratic rights to voice their dissatisfaction with the changes to their mutually understood terms of employment. This is what the union is for...
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Re: One list

Post by Mooseontheloose » Tue May 14, 2019 3:53 pm

THIS JUST IN!! ENCORE PILOTS GETTING THE SHAFT!!! NO LOVE FROM MAINLINE PILOTS TELLING ALL YOU BAG LICKIN CHIMPS TO POUND SAND!!! AHAHAHA!! HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT?!! SLAVING AWAY FOR YEARS PICKING UP TRASH ON THE DASH WHILE YOUR BUDDIES AT MAINLINE ARE LAUGHING!! "THANKS FOR ALL THE HARDWORK NOW GET FU(KED!!!!" LOL!!! YEAAAAHHHH MEN!! BRUSH OFF THE OLD RESUME FOR BIG RED, SUNWING, OR JAZZ!!! HELL YOU COULD PROBABLY QUIT ENCORE TODAY AND GET HIRED AT WESTJET NEXT WEEK!! GET TO SIT NEXT TO A NAVAJO COJO FROM UP NORTH WITH LOTS OF TALL TALES!!! YEAHHHH MENN!!!!! AINT AVIATION SWEET!!! CMON OVER TO BIG RED! PICK ANY BASE YA WANT!! LOL!! CAN'T WAIT TO SEEE YAAAAH!!!!
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Re: One list

Post by Bede » Tue May 14, 2019 3:55 pm

SPR wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm
Thanks guys. You've really emphasized that WestJet and Encore are separate, and we're not on the same team. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one am done helping you, and I'm going to take every small opportunity I have to jab back at you. To the guys who used my jumpseat to get home on the last, full flight of the night, you can spent another night away from home. To the guys who used my jumpseat to barely make it to work by the skin of their teeth, you can deal with the ramifications of the new commuting rules. To the guy who asked to go ahead of me in the immigration line so he could make it to his kid's birthday, you can wait your damn turn.
You guys have all just reinforced Swoop, and ensured that a flood of Encore pilots will be going there and continuing the terrible working conditions. You've undermined your best opportunity to improve things for members of your own bargaining group. I'll be looking for work elsewhere now, but in the meantime I'm seriously considering going to Swoop and doing whatever I can to help get thirty tails moved over from WestJet. If management has trouble crewing all those planes, I'll work 26 days a month to stick it to you. Then I'm going to go work for one of your competitors and help them wear down WestJet from the outside. I hope Onex guts you.
I'd feel the same way if I were in your shoes.

-signed a vocal YES voter.
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Re: One list

Post by Barney » Tue May 14, 2019 4:08 pm

Sorry to all the Encore folks. Look on the bright side at least you still have a guaranteed job at mainline with flow and the top up pay which helps big time on the first two years. All in all its still not that bad when you think about it from that perspective.

Your career progression is still intact and looks like Onex wants to grow internationally which will create lots of movement.

Act professionally out there you never know what will happen next in this industry.
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Re: One list

Post by FISH-FLY » Tue May 14, 2019 4:11 pm

avbird wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:00 pm
I hope Westjet pilots who commute from yul or yow like walking, the jumpseat is closed at encore.
So what about the large # of WJ pilots that voted "YES"? Are they just banished by association? Sounds mature.

Cue the precession of chest-beating about jumpseat control, and all of the other amazing pilot jobs that people are going to quit for right away. :roll:
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Re: One list

Post by yvrpilot82 » Tue May 14, 2019 4:13 pm

Barney wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:08 pm

Your career progression is still intact and looks like Onex wants to grow internationally which will create lots of movement.
Errr nope. If someone spent 4 years at Encore that time counted towards a WJ upgrade until today. Or a base move for the golden ticket that is YYC. Now they're back to Year Zero when they flow to WJ.
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Re: One list

Post by Vanguard » Tue May 14, 2019 4:20 pm

Westjet Pilots

You’ve truly shown your colours today.

You have sold out your fellow brothers and sisters today by this vote and done what this industry has done countless times before. We stood by you all with everything you went through and you decided to uproot our lives, careers and our futures. It’s sad that today many of us will remove our Westjet pins on our uniforms and that you will be considered a disgrace to our industry in Canada for doing this.


For the people who voted yes, we will appreciate the love shown to us by you unfortunately we won’t know who you are because you all wear the same colours. This betrayal is quite hurtful.


For the 400 of you that did not vote... shame on you. You are almost worse than the people who voted to dispel this LOU. We know it didn’t affect you that much but it affected all the time we put into Encore waiting to join you on the other side.
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Re: One list

Post by EncoretheEncore » Tue May 14, 2019 4:31 pm

Even as a non Westjetter

I am going to have a tough time looking in the eyes of any Mainline pilot at the airport.

Disgraceful
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Re: One list

Post by tps8903 » Tue May 14, 2019 5:04 pm

Barney wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:08 pm
Sorry to all the Encore folks. Look on the bright side at least you still have a guaranteed job at mainline with flow and the top up pay which helps big time on the first two years. All in all its still not that bad when you think about it from that perspective.

Your career progression is still intact and looks like Onex wants to grow internationally which will create lots of movement.

Act professionally out there you never know what will happen next in this industry.
Technically flow died with the one list. It's up to the Company and the Encore MEC to negotiate a new Flow LOU. Hopefully we get this done sooner than later and hopefully the company will increase the flow amount.
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Re: One list

Post by Gear Jerker » Tue May 14, 2019 5:12 pm

This is incorrect, flow doesn't change. The one list pertained to respecting DOH at the Westjet Group seniority. It now looks like a traditional airline structure with flow to the bottom of the list. ie 6 month Encore FO's who flowed to Swoop FO a year ago will have seniority over the 5 year Encore training captain who flows to Westjet. You guys happy?
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Re: One list

Post by GATRKGA » Tue May 14, 2019 5:13 pm

How do you guys at Encore feel about your collective agreement now? Would 92% still vote in favor? I hope this serves as a lesson for you to not just agree to the first agreement that is put on the table. Perhaps you should have thrown your MEC back to the negots and delay the vote until this very important vote went through.

For what it's worth, you guys at Encore are still way ahead where you would have been before the existence of Encore. Which don't forget, was only 6 years ago. Back then all you 1000 hour instructors would have been flying to fort skin john, loading bags in -30 wind chill and "paying" your dues before Jazz or any of the sort would even look at you. Now, at 1000 hours you're privy to a cushy airline gig, a cup of coffee being served to you, and an APU blasting air conditioned bleed air, where instead of spending 5 years trying to get recognized in the industry, with a frozen attitude indicator in a King Air after a stand up in YMM, you've already been recognized and are well on your way to a legacy mainline job without question in 4-5 years.

While something was taken away from you, and feelings of betrayal are real, you still have it better than how it used to be. Not that I think this is a metric that you should pump your chest about, but gives you a reality check as to where you would have been only 6 years ago had you not been employed at a company like Encore.

My buddy was hired at WJ 2 years after his student, whom he taught PPL to back in his instructing days. This student having recently crossed his 1000 hours total time at Encore was joking how they'd upgrade ahead of my buddy on the 737 at WJ, looks like the pecking order has been restored for many who came into WJ with loads of exp. While this doesn't hold true for the experienced DEC's that went to Encore, you could've waited like the rest of those that are being hired competitively with good time into WJ today and bypassed this fiasco.

It doesn't defy however that the one list was promised to you, and that it has now been taken away. I can totally see your frustration. Accountability goes a very long way in this industry. What just happened here is a great lesson for those inexperienced 23 year olds that are posting nothing but glory stories on instagram with their 4 bars.

Best of luck with your future endeavors Encore guys.
SPR wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm
Thanks guys. You've really emphasized that WestJet and Encore are separate, and we're not on the same team. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one am done helping you, and I'm going to take every small opportunity I have to jab back at you. To the guys who used my jumpseat to get home on the last, full flight of the night, you can spent another night away from home. To the guys who used my jumpseat to barely make it to work by the skin of their teeth, you can deal with the ramifications of the new commuting rules. To the guy who asked to go ahead of me in the immigration line so he could make it to his kid's birthday, you can wait your damn turn.
You guys have all just reinforced Swoop, and ensured that a flood of Encore pilots will be going there and continuing the terrible working conditions. You've undermined your best opportunity to improve things for members of your own bargaining group. I'll be looking for work elsewhere now, but in the meantime I'm seriously considering going to Swoop and doing whatever I can to help get thirty tails moved over from WestJet. If management has trouble crewing all those planes, I'll work 26 days a month to stick it to you. Then I'm going to go work for one of your competitors and help them wear down WestJet from the outside. I hope Onex guts you.
A very emotional post, and clearly not indicative of how you're going to go about your business. Once you calm down you'll realize that you won't be going down the path of screwing WJ for the rest of your career.
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Re: One list

Post by KAG » Tue May 14, 2019 5:16 pm

There is already a ground swell of wj no voting pilots who want it reworked and re voted. Fix one simple aspect- reverse flow if there are layoffs (as was in the original moa) and it will pass.
The one list is still wanted, and I expect a demand for tweaking. Dont freak out just yet.
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Re: One list

Post by CaptainHaddock » Tue May 14, 2019 5:21 pm

Sorry guys, I was a yes and feel this is an unfortunate outcome. I am sure the Onex deal would have created some uncertainty for some WJ guys. The language about the bump and flush got a lot of guys too. It may very well be revisited and tweaked. Either way it is a let down. There has been a lot of divide and conquer going on a WJ the last few years and it really hasn’t served any of the pilots well-it is to bad if this will be used as another tool of division.
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Re: One list

Post by Gear Jerker » Tue May 14, 2019 5:24 pm

GATRKGA wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:13 pm
How do you guys at Encore feel about your collective agreement now? Would 92% still vote in favor? I hope this serves as a lesson for you to not just agree to the first agreement that is put on the table. Perhaps you should have thrown your MEC back to the negots and delay the vote until this very important vote went through.

For what it's worth, you guys at Encore are still way ahead where you would have been before the existence of Encore. Which don't forget, was only 6 years ago. Back then all you 1000 hour instructors would have been flying to fort skin john, loading bags in -30 wind chill and "paying" your dues before Jazz or any of the sort would even look at you. Now, at 1000 hours you're privy to a cushy airline gig, a cup of coffee being served to you, and an APU blasting air conditioned bleed air, where instead of spending 5 years trying to get recognized in the industry, with a frozen attitude indicator in a King Air after a stand up in YMM, you've already been recognized and are well on your way to a legacy mainline job without question in 4-5 years.

While something was taken away from you, and feelings of betrayal are real, you still have it better than how it used to be. Not that I think this is a metric that you should pump your chest about, but gives you a reality check as to where you would have been only 6 years ago had you not been employed at a company like Encore.

My buddy was hired at WJ 2 years after his student, whom he taught PPL to back in his instructing days. This student having recently crossed his 1000 hours total time at Encore was joking how they'd upgrade ahead of my buddy on the 737 at WJ, looks like the pecking order has been restored for many who came into WJ with loads of exp. While this doesn't hold true for the experienced DEC's that went to Encore, you could've waited like the rest of those that are being hired competitively with good time into WJ today and bypassed this fiasco.

It doesn't defy however that the one list was promised to you, and that it has now been taken away. I can totally see your frustration. Accountability goes a very long way in this industry. What just happened here is a great lesson for those inexperienced 23 year olds that are posting nothing but glory stories on instagram with their 4 bars.

Best of luck with your future endeavors Encore guys.
SPR wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm
Thanks guys. You've really emphasized that WestJet and Encore are separate, and we're not on the same team. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one am done helping you, and I'm going to take every small opportunity I have to jab back at you. To the guys who used my jumpseat to get home on the last, full flight of the night, you can spent another night away from home. To the guys who used my jumpseat to barely make it to work by the skin of their teeth, you can deal with the ramifications of the new commuting rules. To the guy who asked to go ahead of me in the immigration line so he could make it to his kid's birthday, you can wait your damn turn.
You guys have all just reinforced Swoop, and ensured that a flood of Encore pilots will be going there and continuing the terrible working conditions. You've undermined your best opportunity to improve things for members of your own bargaining group. I'll be looking for work elsewhere now, but in the meantime I'm seriously considering going to Swoop and doing whatever I can to help get thirty tails moved over from WestJet. If management has trouble crewing all those planes, I'll work 26 days a month to stick it to you. Then I'm going to go work for one of your competitors and help them wear down WestJet from the outside. I hope Onex guts you.
A very emotional post, and clearly not indicative of how you're going to go about your business. Once you calm down you'll realize that you won't be going down the path of screwing WJ for the rest of your career.
Love the arrogance bud. Really, classy post there thanks captain 5 bars.

Do you really think thats what all Encore pilots are? 23 year olds who instructed for a year or went straight into the right seat of a King Air for 6 months then came to Encore?

Just so you know, Encore is about 520 pilots at the moment, and while what you describe does exist, they are not the majority. Up until about a year and a half ago it was all 704 and 703 captains. Some of us have even worked the ramp up north, done multiple job hunting road trips flown a variety of aircraft and accumulated thousands of hours before applying, and took this job because of the one list.

Having said that, your attitude is the reason why our industry doesn't progress. Believe me, as a training captain at Encore I feel the same feelings when I encounter entitlement, but I also recognize that the attitude of "I had to go through all this bulls*** so you should too" is exactly the emotional base that led to this irrational, short sighted and terrible decision.

I bet you're a real beauty to fly with.
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Re: One list

Post by Vanguard » Tue May 14, 2019 5:25 pm

GATRKGA wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:13 pm
How do you guys at Encore feel about your collective agreement now? Would 92% still vote in favor? I hope this serves as a lesson for you to not just agree to the first agreement that is put on the table. Perhaps you should have thrown your MEC back to the negots and delay the vote until this very important vote went through.

For what it's worth, you guys at Encore are still way ahead where you would have been before the existence of Encore. Which don't forget, was only 6 years ago. Back then all you 1000 hour instructors would have been flying to fort skin john, loading bags in -30 wind chill and "paying" your dues before Jazz or any of the sort would even look at you. Now, at 1000 hours you're privy to a cushy airline gig, a cup of coffee being served to you, and an APU blasting air conditioned bleed air, where instead of spending 5 years trying to get recognized in the industry, with a frozen attitude indicator in a King Air after a stand up in YMM, you've already been recognized and are well on your way to a legacy mainline job without question in 4-5 years.

While something was taken away from you, and feelings of betrayal are real, you still have it better than how it used to be. Not that I think this is a metric that you should pump your chest about, but gives you a reality check as to where you would have been only 6 years ago had you not been employed at a company like Encore.

My buddy was hired at WJ 2 years after his student, whom he taught PPL to back in his instructing days. This student having recently crossed his 1000 hours total time at Encore was joking how they'd upgrade ahead of my buddy on the 737 at WJ, looks like the pecking order has been restored for many who came into WJ with loads of exp. While this doesn't hold true for the experienced DEC's that went to Encore, you could've waited like the rest of those that are being hired competitively with good time into WJ today and bypassed this fiasco.

It doesn't defy however that the one list was promised to you, and that it has now been taken away. I can totally see your frustration. Accountability goes a very long way in this industry. What just happened here is a great lesson for those inexperienced 23 year olds that are posting nothing but glory stories on instagram with their 4 bars.

Best of luck with your future endeavors Encore guys.
SPR wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm
Thanks guys. You've really emphasized that WestJet and Encore are separate, and we're not on the same team. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one am done helping you, and I'm going to take every small opportunity I have to jab back at you. To the guys who used my jumpseat to get home on the last, full flight of the night, you can spent another night away from home. To the guys who used my jumpseat to barely make it to work by the skin of their teeth, you can deal with the ramifications of the new commuting rules. To the guy who asked to go ahead of me in the immigration line so he could make it to his kid's birthday, you can wait your damn turn.
You guys have all just reinforced Swoop, and ensured that a flood of Encore pilots will be going there and continuing the terrible working conditions. You've undermined your best opportunity to improve things for members of your own bargaining group. I'll be looking for work elsewhere now, but in the meantime I'm seriously considering going to Swoop and doing whatever I can to help get thirty tails moved over from WestJet. If management has trouble crewing all those planes, I'll work 26 days a month to stick it to you. Then I'm going to go work for one of your competitors and help them wear down WestJet from the outside. I hope Onex guts you.
A very emotional post, and clearly not indicative of how you're going to go about your business. Once you calm down you'll realize that you won't be going down the path of screwing WJ for the rest of your career.


People like you are toxic to this industry. Many Encore Pilots still have more experience than some of the people hired direct as OTS. 6 years ago, you think we were hiring instructors? This is the first year that’s happened that the industry has taken a dive and those instructors weren’t looking st flow for another 4-5years. Even those 23yo Captains glorifying Captains have more integrity than scum like you.

Thank you for giving success to Swoop.
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan » Tue May 14, 2019 5:28 pm

doiwannabeapilot wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:14 pm
So.......Old commercial pilot was right after all ???
Uh, no.
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan » Tue May 14, 2019 5:33 pm

tps8903 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:04 pm
Barney wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:08 pm
Sorry to all the Encore folks. Look on the bright side at least you still have a guaranteed job at mainline with flow and the top up pay which helps big time on the first two years. All in all its still not that bad when you think about it from that perspective.

Your career progression is still intact and looks like Onex wants to grow internationally which will create lots of movement.

Act professionally out there you never know what will happen next in this industry.
Technically flow died with the one list. It's up to the Company and the Encore MEC to negotiate a new Flow LOU. Hopefully we get this done sooner than later and hopefully the company will increase the flow amount.
I see this happening pretty quick. With the one list off the table, WJ has an opportunity to sweeten the pot at Encore to attract and retain and increase the flow. WJ MEC will have no say in this thanks to the FU 54% of the mainline pilots gave, but I bet the Encore guys are happy to play ball.

How Ironic: There's no reason to go back to the WJ mainline pilots to renegotiate if they can get it done with Encore. Methinks some peeps overestimated the mainline bargaining position. For what? Alienation of Encore pilots and a loss of unity and solidarity for starters.
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Re: One list

Post by Mr. North » Tue May 14, 2019 5:35 pm

GATRKGA get off your high horse!! Who gives a fiddlers f*ck what the industry was like 6 years ago! It doesn't matter who or in what way people climbed seniority in the past. Categorising Encore pilots as 5 bar Instagram warriors flies in the face of all the high time, older professionals working here. All of witch were ROBBED by none other than their PEERS at MAINLINE!

May I remind all of you that Encore pilots went from ZERO to CERTIFIED in near record time, the speed and vigour in which this was done was to protect the SENIORITY LIST. The seniority list wasn't a casualty of negotiations or arbitration (as it certainly could have been), no it was MAINLINE PILOTS who voted against their own!

500+ pilots outright robbed of their seniority and all the financial and lifestyle benefits that go with it!
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Re: One list

Post by tps8903 » Tue May 14, 2019 5:37 pm

Gear Jerker wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:12 pm
This is incorrect, flow doesn't change. The one list pertained to respecting DOH at the Westjet Group seniority. It now looks like a traditional airline structure with flow to the bottom of the list. ie 6 month Encore FO's who flowed to Swoop FO a year ago will have seniority over the 5 year Encore training captain who flows to Westjet. You guys happy?
Section 3 of the One List Agreement was the mechanism for flow between all the parties (Swoop, Mainline and Encore). So it is correct. What section of the Encore TA talks about Flow?

This isn't to say the company won't respect it, it just means it's not written anywhere, and until it is, it's uncertain.
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Last edited by tps8903 on Tue May 14, 2019 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan » Tue May 14, 2019 5:40 pm

KAG wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:16 pm
There is already a ground swell of wj no voting pilots who want it reworked and re voted. Fix one simple aspect- reverse flow if there are layoffs (as was in the original moa) and it will pass.
The one list is still wanted, and I expect a demand for tweaking. Dont freak out just yet.
Yup. Should be TOTALLY easy to fix that right up, with the 3 companies just agreeing to all that potential extra training pay, and all the other consequences that come along with "pure seniority" Should be done in like, a week or something. :roll:

That original MOA would likely have never survived a stress test in the event of a layoff. Already was mentioned that if you want pure up and down, there are issues with jet guys getting stuck on the Q when there are recalls to mainline due to sr encore guys, not to mention the effect on jet guys if encore lays off.
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Re: One list

Post by bob99 » Tue May 14, 2019 5:42 pm

tps8903 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:37 pm
Gear Jerker wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:12 pm
This is incorrect, flow doesn't change. The one list pertained to respecting DOH at the Westjet Group seniority. It now looks like a traditional airline structure with flow to the bottom of the list. ie 6 month Encore FO's who flowed to Swoop FO a year ago will have seniority over the 5 year Encore training captain who flows to Westjet. You guys happy?
Section 3 of the One List Agreement was the mechanism for flow between all the parties (Swoop, Mainline and Encore). So it is correct. What section of the Encore TA talks about Flow?
THIS!!

Flow is not in the Encore contract, it's in the one list loa that was rejected!
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Re: One list

Post by Barney » Tue May 14, 2019 5:48 pm

Maybe Encore will get a retention bonus now like Porter. Stay for 3 years get 50K.
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Re: One list

Post by flyinhigh » Tue May 14, 2019 6:17 pm

Oh it’s not just in the LOU. There is another document that was agreed to prior to this going to the pilot group for a vote to show that the company and the encore pilots are in favour of the flow agreement. Now that the one list has failed, this document will come into play.
bob99 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:42 pm
Flow is not in the Encore contract, it's in the one list loa that was rejected!
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