One list

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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: One list

Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Mon May 06, 2019 8:28 pm

The MEC also said if it fails the company will have to put the money into a better contract at Encore making it a more desirable Regional than others in order to attract talent.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan » Mon May 06, 2019 8:35 pm

The layoff thing was also well explained. If there are layoffs at mainline, WJ pilots get first crack at any vacancies at Encore including Capt positions, but they are not required to go there to keep their number (i.e. they can go wherever else they want and aren't "forced" to go to Encore to keep their spot on the list). They however won't force any Encore pilots out on the street (flush).

A mainline pilot on layoff would also come back to their position at Mainline before any (senior to them) Encore pilots could flow.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan » Mon May 06, 2019 8:58 pm

One more thing to think about that I don't think was mentioned on the call.

If you want the ability to bump and flush, that is, if there is a layoff at either company, have a system-wide bid across both to see who ends up where and who keeps their job, then you better be prepared that when there is a recall, that original mainline pilots won't be senior enough to go back on the jet. There will be Encore pilots who are more senior who will have a right to those positions and original mainline people will be stuck at encore.

Hope that makes sense. Basically this simplified. if WJ pilots can bump down into Encore and send jr. encore guys out the bottom becuase they are "senior" , what right do they have to come back to mainline ahead of encore pilots who are senior to them on the one list when there are recalls?
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skyhighh
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Re: One list

Post by skyhighh » Mon May 06, 2019 11:45 pm

DropTanks wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 3:13 am
skyhighh wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:38 am
cloak wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 9:51 am
Admittedly it is a difficult discussion to have in the presence of emotional attachment, at the same time pragmatically it is quite likely not just the OTS pilots, but also the ones that fly with them and know them and their experience.
The conversation between OTS hires and Encore pilots must come with an understanding that a lot of OTS hires have a lot less experience than the Encore pilots. The reason why some went to mainline and others to Encore was just...luck. In the last few ground school, none of the OTS hires had more experience than any Encore Captain. Lets remember that Encore have pilots that came from heavy jets and/or have experience flying worldwide. The belief that OTS hires deserve to have seniority over the Encore pilots due to experience is just wrong. Let's remember how Encore got created and how WestJet forced pilots to go to Encore in order to go at some point to WestJet.

For the ones saying "It's okay it's just 3-4 years of your carreer"... well it is not... it's more like 10 years. Most of the Encore captains have 5.000+ hours and if they left Encore to go to any other airline they will go behind 500-1000h pilots, and if they go to mainline without keeping their seniority they would be behind 1500h pilots... Making all their experience built in the last basically 10 years... worth...nothing!

WestJet pilots are against the one list because they want to "screw" the company because of Swoop...But think about it for more than 2 seconds... What do you think Encore pilots are going to do if the one list fails? All the FOs are going to apply at Swoop and start building seniority + YOS... and then what? Mainline will be crying because Swoop will be more alive than ever!

Let's remember one thing... How many Encore pilots went to Swoop? How many WestJet pilots went to Swoop? The ones that are keeping Swoop alive are the WJ pilots, not the Encore ones. Encore pilots stood behind their brothers and sisters during the entire process, even during all the uncertainty.

If the LOA doesn't pass, not only will it create animosity between the two pilots group but you would be digging yourself a bigger hole that has already been done. The one list is legit one of the only thing that prevents Swoop from growing.

Be smart, vote smart.

An Encore pilot that has been standing behind the WJ pilot group for many years.
Yeah I’m gonna have to call BS on this entire post dude. You make it sound as if there’s a plethora of salty old grey-haired pilots climbing into the Q at Encore when usually the comment is closer to “does his mommy know he’s not in school today?”

Second, the notion that one guy goes to Encore and the other goes to Mainline is based on, oh how did you put it...luck. BS. You went to a Encore because you applied there, interviewed there and took the job. Don’t whine about your lot in life as is good old Lady Luck screwed you. You screwed you. Some of us told Encore to pound sand or never applied.

While a lot of us OTS pilots believe in the spirit of the One list, this particular LOA document is doggy doo doo and we will try to protect ourselves. Furthermore some of us are sick and tired of being painted as “lucky” to be at mainline or as horned, buck toothed monsters trying to screw the precious Encore Pilots at every turn.
Your ignorance regarding the Encore pilot group and the way it was created is astonishing and unfortunate. Yes our FOs are now young and inexperienced compared to the WestJet's one but please take a good look at the experience of your pears that flowed to mainline from Encore and ask them what kind of experience they had prior to Encore. Please look at the last ground school for example and tell me if any of them exceeds the experience of ANY of the captain's at Encore.

As for the we screwed ourselves... With the data we had at the time and the way the industry was... when we got hired we weren't expecting the One List to potentially go away. Then after a couple years we thought the company would screw us over... we were FAR to expect the WestJet pilot group to maybe screw us over later. If you're for the LOA, good and we thank you for it, it shows some respect to your peers and the experience they have.

Let's be professional here, avoid the name calling and personal attacks,

Respectfully,

skyhighh.
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DropTanks
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Re: One list

Post by DropTanks » Tue May 07, 2019 3:27 am

skyhighh wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:45 pm
DropTanks wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 3:13 am
skyhighh wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:38 am


The conversation between OTS hires and Encore pilots must come with an understanding that a lot of OTS hires have a lot less experience than the Encore pilots. The reason why some went to mainline and others to Encore was just...luck. In the last few ground school, none of the OTS hires had more experience than any Encore Captain. Lets remember that Encore have pilots that came from heavy jets and/or have experience flying worldwide. The belief that OTS hires deserve to have seniority over the Encore pilots due to experience is just wrong. Let's remember how Encore got created and how WestJet forced pilots to go to Encore in order to go at some point to WestJet.

For the ones saying "It's okay it's just 3-4 years of your carreer"... well it is not... it's more like 10 years. Most of the Encore captains have 5.000+ hours and if they left Encore to go to any other airline they will go behind 500-1000h pilots, and if they go to mainline without keeping their seniority they would be behind 1500h pilots... Making all their experience built in the last basically 10 years... worth...nothing!

WestJet pilots are against the one list because they want to "screw" the company because of Swoop...But think about it for more than 2 seconds... What do you think Encore pilots are going to do if the one list fails? All the FOs are going to apply at Swoop and start building seniority + YOS... and then what? Mainline will be crying because Swoop will be more alive than ever!

Let's remember one thing... How many Encore pilots went to Swoop? How many WestJet pilots went to Swoop? The ones that are keeping Swoop alive are the WJ pilots, not the Encore ones. Encore pilots stood behind their brothers and sisters during the entire process, even during all the uncertainty.

If the LOA doesn't pass, not only will it create animosity between the two pilots group but you would be digging yourself a bigger hole that has already been done. The one list is legit one of the only thing that prevents Swoop from growing.

Be smart, vote smart.

An Encore pilot that has been standing behind the WJ pilot group for many years.
Yeah I’m gonna have to call BS on this entire post dude. You make it sound as if there’s a plethora of salty old grey-haired pilots climbing into the Q at Encore when usually the comment is closer to “does his mommy know he’s not in school today?”

Second, the notion that one guy goes to Encore and the other goes to Mainline is based on, oh how did you put it...luck. BS. You went to a Encore because you applied there, interviewed there and took the job. Don’t whine about your lot in life as is good old Lady Luck screwed you. You screwed you. Some of us told Encore to pound sand or never applied.

While a lot of us OTS pilots believe in the spirit of the One list, this particular LOA document is doggy doo doo and we will try to protect ourselves. Furthermore some of us are sick and tired of being painted as “lucky” to be at mainline or as horned, buck toothed monsters trying to screw the precious Encore Pilots at every turn.
Your ignorance regarding the Encore pilot group and the way it was created is astonishing and unfortunate. Yes our FOs are now young and inexperienced compared to the WestJet's one but please take a good look at the experience of your pears that flowed to mainline from Encore and ask them what kind of experience they had prior to Encore. Please look at the last ground school for example and tell me if any of them exceeds the experience of ANY of the captain's at Encore.

As for the we screwed ourselves... With the data we had at the time and the way the industry was... when we got hired we weren't expecting the One List to potentially go away. Then after a couple years we thought the company would screw us over... we were FAR to expect the WestJet pilot group to maybe screw us over later. If you're for the LOA, good and we thank you for it, it shows some respect to your peers and the experience they have.

Let's be professional here, avoid the name calling and personal attacks,

Respectfully,

skyhighh.
Dude, I’m the biggest proponent of the One List for all the same reasons you and everybody else is, so you’re welcome. What I am not is a pushover. I will also not sit here and be portrayed as simply LUCKY to be at mainline. That remark negates all the experience I and others like me had when we got hired. Golly, I remember a time when every single pilot at WJ was an OTS hire. Now we’re just “lucky” as you put it? No way. I’m effing sick and tired of OTS pilots being portrayed as evil dirtbags that somehow managed to game the system and circumvent Encore. As for you guys screwing yourselves remark, that was meant only as meaning you made your choice to work at Encore and you’re not victims. I absolutely agree that you guys were told one thing (One List) and that you should absolutely get what you were promised. 100% no rug should be pulled from you. That was the deal. No argument at all. Just stop playing the victim, and stop painting us as the enemy.
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skyhighh
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Re: One list

Post by skyhighh » Tue May 07, 2019 4:33 am

I'm not sure where I said than OTS hires were the Enemy. The ones going to Swoop... well we might have different feelings towards them. But when it comes to mainline we all agreed on a certain % of outside hires and I never heard anybody complaining about the fact WJ hired OTS. I'm sorry if anybody made you feel that way, and if it's me, it wasn't my intention.
As for the "lucky" part... We can agree to disagree. I've known countless people at Encore who flew planes as big as A340 and B747 and they got to Encore... and 6 months later WJ started hiring guys from B1900 and Metroliner... All this is timing and therefor... in my opinion... luck.
After there are also OTS hires that have great experience and I never denied that but looking at the Encore captain and think that they have no experience and are barely old enough to graduate high school is plain wrong. Seriously, look at the pilots that just flowed and ask them what they had experience wise before going to Encore. It looks like you might get a surprise.

Anyway, we can agree or not... it doesn't matter. In no way did I try to offend any OTS, I just stated a fact that Encore pilots have a lot more experience than what people believe and that they deserve their seniority that was originally offered to them. That was part of the deal.. "Sorry we aren't hiring at WJ right now but you can spend 2-3 years at Encore and your seniority will remain the same. Welcome to the WestJet family".

On that note, thanks again for not coming to WJ knowing what the deal was and then fight against the one list. It is truly appreciated.
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DropTanks
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Re: One list

Post by DropTanks » Tue May 07, 2019 9:29 am

All good man. Same Tealish team. In the end it will all work out somehow for everybody.
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FlyYYC
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Re: One list

Post by FlyYYC » Tue May 07, 2019 9:31 am

Sorry, this is a long trend... has it been answered if a no vote will effect past encore pilots?
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Tue May 07, 2019 9:48 am

FlyYYC wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:31 am
Sorry, this is a long trend... has it been answered if a no vote will effect past encore pilots?
Encore pilots that flowed since Jan 1, 2019 would lose their seniority.

Encore pilots that flowed prior to Jan 1, 2019 would keep their seniority but in theory lose their date of hire which could reduce their vacation entitlement among other things.
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sarg
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Re: One list

Post by sarg » Tue May 07, 2019 10:43 am

JBI wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 7:38 pm
According to a mainline friend who listened to the All pilot call tonight, the WJ MEC indicated that it will NOT ask to try and renegotiate (As is 100% their right to do so) if the LOA vote fails.

A "no" vote does NOT mean they try to renegotiate. A "no" vote means mainline pilots will not get a chance to rework things and they will be significantly screwing over the Encore pilots.
That's not quite the way it works. The MEC would have to seek or be given another mandate to work on the One List.
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Tue May 07, 2019 11:01 am

sarg wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:43 am
JBI wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 7:38 pm
According to a mainline friend who listened to the All pilot call tonight, the WJ MEC indicated that it will NOT ask to try and renegotiate (As is 100% their right to do so) if the LOA vote fails.

A "no" vote does NOT mean they try to renegotiate. A "no" vote means mainline pilots will not get a chance to rework things and they will be significantly screwing over the Encore pilots.
That's not quite the way it works. The MEC would have to seek or be given another mandate to work on the One List.
Technically yes, you are correct, the MEC would have to seek a mandate to work on the One List, though to me it indicates that they would not seek such a mandate. And while I'm getting the sense that most of the less vocal folks are generally in favour of the One List LOA, I think that it would be pretty difficult for the members to give the MEC a mandate to work on a One List after a No vote.

With regard to your previous post:
sarg wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 5:41 pm

So as a lawyer do you care to comment on the balance on Section 11.03 that says basically "if a pilot has received a reserved seniority right they get to keep it even if the agreement is cancelled"?

It seems to this layman that if the vote is Yes the company get what they want, the current Encore pilots are covered the company has no reason to renegotiate or even maintain the agreement. They can tell every future Encore pilot it's flow only and every future OTS at WestJet for the next few years will get to dwell on the bottom of the list.

The only way this gets fixed is if there is pressure on the company to get this fixed, a Yes vote seems to remove this pressure.
I'm afraid I don't quite follow your line of reasoning. If the LOA is accepted by all parties, a party does have the right to cancel the agreement but the current pilots on property would have their seniority numbers frozen. To me this is a very good thing as it removes any uncertainty on where people's seniority stands. Are you suggesting that certainty around each pilot on the property's seniority isn't a good thing?
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Re: One list

Post by cloak » Tue May 07, 2019 11:29 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:02 pm
This is an interesting topic... not just as it relates to Westjet/Encore but as related to other airlines.

Certainly worth looking at how other airlines manage flow from their regionals both now and in the past - including flow from wholly owned regional subsidiaries.

Do any offer seniority DOH carry over? Flow up or back?

American/PSA (wholly owned) -guaranteed flow, no interview... BOTL.

American/Piedmont (wholly owned) - guaranteed flow, no interview... BOTL. Can flow back to original seniority if you wash out at American.

American/Envoy (wholly owned) - guaranteed flow, no interview... BOTL.

American/American Eagle (wholly owned) - old Envoy deal - flowed with some seniority in terms of YOS pay... BOTL. There was also a flowback provision when American furloughed. Turned out a mess in the flowback/recall/flowup resulting in an arbitration awarding higher seniority to some AE pilots during recalls/flowups.

Delta/Endeavor (wholly owned) - 18 months as a Captain, clean employment record = guaranteed interview... BOTL

Delta's other regionals, guaranteed priority application review... BOTL.

Delta (Northwest)/Compass (wholly owned) - prior to being sold, full flow up/down agreement. All flow down Delta pilots were to sit senior to the most senior Compass pilot (except any senior "protected" pilots who bypassed flow up), all flow up regional pilots go BOTL.
90% of regional positions guaranteed to Delta (Northwest) pilots in a flow down, 10% guaranteed to protected pilots who bypass flow up and locked in seniority relative the larger list.

United - various express interview or priority application review deals... BOTL.

Alaska/Horizon (wholly owned) - "Pathway" gives hiring quotas from the regional and priority application/interview... BOTL

Air Canada/Jazz - Current pilot mobility agreement gives interview/flow in relative Jazz seniority, hiring quotas, and 90% acceptance guaranteed... BOTL.
altiplano, thank you for sharing your research. It certainly adds perspective!

The WestJet/Encore model is similar to those examples, and your other points regarding future challenges including sale, mergers, buy-outs also seem valid. As the two companies evolve and grow the challenges of such program will only become more complex and difficult. A long term and lasting solution may simply necessitate other ways of attracting pilots to Encore.
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Re: One list

Post by sarg » Tue May 07, 2019 12:52 pm

JBI wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:01 am
sarg wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:43 am
JBI wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 7:38 pm
According to a mainline friend who listened to the All pilot call tonight, the WJ MEC indicated that it will NOT ask to try and renegotiate (As is 100% their right to do so) if the LOA vote fails.

A "no" vote does NOT mean they try to renegotiate. A "no" vote means mainline pilots will not get a chance to rework things and they will be significantly screwing over the Encore pilots.
That's not quite the way it works. The MEC would have to seek or be given another mandate to work on the One List.
Technically yes, you are correct, the MEC would have to seek a mandate to work on the One List, though to me it indicates that they would not seek such a mandate. And while I'm getting the sense that most of the less vocal folks are generally in favour of the One List LOA, I think that it would be pretty difficult for the members to give the MEC a mandate to work on a One List after a No vote.

With regard to your previous post:
sarg wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 5:41 pm

So as a lawyer do you care to comment on the balance on Section 11.03 that says basically "if a pilot has received a reserved seniority right they get to keep it even if the agreement is cancelled"?

It seems to this layman that if the vote is Yes the company get what they want, the current Encore pilots are covered the company has no reason to renegotiate or even maintain the agreement. They can tell every future Encore pilot it's flow only and every future OTS at WestJet for the next few years will get to dwell on the bottom of the list.

The only way this gets fixed is if there is pressure on the company to get this fixed, a Yes vote seems to remove this pressure.
I'm afraid I don't quite follow your line of reasoning. If the LOA is accepted by all parties, a party does have the right to cancel the agreement but the current pilots on property would have their seniority numbers frozen. To me this is a very good thing as it removes any uncertainty on where people's seniority stands. Are you suggesting that certainty around each pilot on the property's seniority isn't a good thing?
The mandate is easy, Item (blank) is the problem fix it.

The second comment cuts to the crux of the problem the current Encore pilots are not on the property. They are currently on a different piece of fenced off property. Seniority rights need to work in both directions, not just one.
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Wed May 08, 2019 4:38 pm

A few responses to some of the discussion topics that I hadn't touched upon previously.
mbav8r wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:31 am
JBI,
I understand that you’re a lawyer, so you would or should know better than most the importance of how something can be interpreted.
Section 1-1.05 is the important one where (a) there will be 90% of active WJ pilot positions and (b) No pilot shall be laid off as a direct result of a number of different commercial agreements.
My understanding of this, is this clause is based on the day this arbitrated agreement took effect, meaning if there were 1000 WJ pilots that day, 900 is the minimum they could go to as a result of shifting work.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong, this clause does not include Encore pilot positions therefore every Encore pilot that flows becomes part of the 90%, essentially bumping down the OTS pilots. In my example, if 100 Encore pilots flow, those that were number 800-900 are now at risk of lay-off in addition to those that were 900-1000.
The award is not name specific, it’s a number based on 90% of active pilots, you can see how this could be problematic for OTS pilots who are very likely to vote no.
mbav8r,

Apologies for the delayed response to your post. As I read things, the 90% is to prevent mainline from essentially moving all 30 tails to Swoop asap and then saying "well, sorry guys, if you want to keep a job, you need to move to Swoop". It's not conditional on anything, just the company won't reduce it.

While I do take your point that 90% of mainline pilots at the date of the agreement (my math puts that at very roughly 1400 or so pilots (90% of 1550 mainline pilots)) not being all that much if there is significant expansion, there actually WON'T be any mainline pilots (OTS or otherwise) who get bumped down that were previously protected. Because of the trend in hiring, that ~1400 number on the date of the Agreement only has about 15-20 Encore pilots above it that could flow. However, the vast majority of those are management pilots. So in reality, all those protect by that 90% value (Seniority position 1400 and above) will remain in that position. And, as mainline guys still continue to move to AC, more pilots will be protected.

For any mainline OTS or Encore pilot that flows, they are already below that magic number of 1400 so wouldn't be protected either way.

Regardless, as I'll discuss in a new topic, it's the other scope clauses that I believe are an even greater protection.
Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 8:28 pm
The MEC also said if it fails the company will have to put the money into a better contract at Encore making it a more desirable Regional than others in order to attract talent.
The company will have lots of options available to it and going to the Encore MEC to sweeten the pot is definitely one of them. However, I'm not sure the MEC is in a position to say what the company will or will not do.

cloak wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:29 am

Delta (Northwest)/Compass (wholly owned) - prior to being sold, full flow up/down agreement. All flow down Delta pilots were to sit senior to the most senior Compass pilot (except any senior "protected" pilots who bypassed flow up), all flow up regional pilots go BOTL.
90% of regional positions guaranteed to Delta (Northwest) pilots in a flow down, 10% guaranteed to protected pilots who bypass flow up and locked in seniority relative the larger list.
altiplano, thank you for sharing your research. It certainly adds perspective!
While the research may add perspective, the only one that is actually an appropriate comparator to the WestJet/Encore situation is Compass Airlines which was started as a compromise with ALPA and Northwest Airlines. At the start, the pilots at Compass were given the opportunity to flow and be bumped. However, when Northwest was bought out by Delta, the contract was renegotiated in 2010. The pilots on the property kept the right to flow to Delta, but the ones who came later didn't get that privilege.

In other words, no pilot who joined Compass with the promise of flow was screwed over. The new contract grandfathered them in. So while there are significant differences to the situation at NWA/DL and Compass and WJ/Encore, the important thing to note is that no pilots already on the property at Compass ended up losing out on something that was always promised to them.
sarg wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 12:52 pm

The mandate is easy, Item (blank) is the problem fix it.

The second comment cuts to the crux of the problem the current Encore pilots are not on the property. They are currently on a different piece of fenced off property. Seniority rights need to work in both directions, not just one.
Respectfully, I don't think it's quite so easy as "go fix it", but sure the pilots could give an MEC (or new MEC for that matter) a mandate to TRY and get a One List Agreement with different lay-off provisions. But in my opinion, mainline pilots are already MORE protected from lay-off than they would be is there was a pure "one list" provision. I'll be doing a separate topic to explain this.
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Re: One list

Post by V1 » Wed May 08, 2019 9:46 pm

Never in my lifetime of flying would I ever think WJ pilots would want to sewer their fellow Encore pilots, I expected this from company, but now the WJ pilots who are saying NO are most definitely not going to be respected by Encore pilots, their partners, anyone who has any values in their body. Its a pretty sad time in aviation if this is what it has come to.

The rationale and greed almost make angry Grandpa sound like he was right, I can just see him laughing while reading this. Encore has done nothing but help WJ grow, they came to work and slogged it out for years to have their WJ brothers now shit on them over whatever it is that makes them mad at this moment.

The WJ NC got an agreement, but it sounds like many of you don't have faith in your MEC, though as JBI has pointed out you are all protected under this agreement.

I fear a lot of you are now addicted to the drama of being screwed over, and complaining for so long nothing can be good, unless it just sucks for everyone else. Encore unified to make it better for you, for us, and everyone that comes after us and that was the whole point of unionizing and making agreements, and thank goodness for that because if the agreements got worse for the people after us than we would be doing something very wrong, and if you could just put yourself for one second in an Encore persons shoes I would hope you would want to do what they signed up to do when they came to this job, and not just change your mind now to try to get more. I hope it only gets better and better, and the people after an agreement have more and more, but within the confines of a legal agreements. They have to start somewhere and the only hope Encore and WJ pilots had at 88% vote was that this was important and would pass, and now its a temper tantrum moment meant to make Encore lose the basic hope in their fellow brothers and sisters so they don't have to start at the bottom of the list again, as they came there thinking they wouldn't. Imagine following through on your word, or are you just going to bait and switch, just like company did for years because they were jerks, and somehow now you are the jerks.
It's as simple as that.
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FlyYYC
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Re: One list

Post by FlyYYC » Thu May 09, 2019 4:43 pm

Encore should have never been made a separate company. The union certainly makes things more complicated. It's also not just OTS pilots voting no. There are previous Encore pilots who are very unhappy that they put in their time and never got their top up pay.
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Re: One list

Post by cloak » Thu May 09, 2019 6:01 pm

It matters not what was said or not said to OTS pilots, Encore pilots - or anyone else for that matter - at the interview; this is a new day and new opportunity through a democratic process. Nothing is static in life. Times change and people must change with the times. Terminating the one list will simply make Encore develop its own merits. Some find it quite reasonable, some find it outrageous, whatever the case, raw emotions don't support one's point of view, they diminish it! And in final analysis the market is always right.
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Re: One list

Post by fish4life » Thu May 09, 2019 8:35 pm

FlyYYC wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 4:43 pm
Encore should have never been made a separate company. The union certainly makes things more complicated. It's also not just OTS pilots voting no. There are previous Encore pilots who are very unhappy that they put in their time and never got their top up pay.
What top up pay ?
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skybaron
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Re: One list

Post by skybaron » Fri May 10, 2019 3:40 am

V1 wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:46 pm
Never in my lifetime of flying would I ever think WJ pilots would want to sewer their fellow Encore pilots, I expected this from company, but now the WJ pilots who are saying NO are most definitely not going to be respected by Encore pilots, their partners, anyone who has any values in their body. Its a pretty sad time in aviation if this is what it has come to.

The rationale and greed almost make angry Grandpa sound like he was right, I can just see him laughing while reading this. Encore has done nothing but help WJ grow, they came to work and slogged it out for years to have their WJ brothers now shit on them over whatever it is that makes them mad at this moment.

The WJ NC got an agreement, but it sounds like many of you don't have faith in your MEC, though as JBI has pointed out you are all protected under this agreement.

I fear a lot of you are now addicted to the drama of being screwed over, and complaining for so long nothing can be good, unless it just sucks for everyone else. Encore unified to make it better for you, for us, and everyone that comes after us and that was the whole point of unionizing and making agreements, and thank goodness for that because if the agreements got worse for the people after us than we would be doing something very wrong, and if you could just put yourself for one second in an Encore persons shoes I would hope you would want to do what they signed up to do when they came to this job, and not just change your mind now to try to get more. I hope it only gets better and better, and the people after an agreement have more and more, but within the confines of a legal agreements. They have to start somewhere and the only hope Encore and WJ pilots had at 88% vote was that this was important and would pass, and now its a temper tantrum moment meant to make Encore lose the basic hope in their fellow brothers and sisters so they don't have to start at the bottom of the list again, as they came there thinking they wouldn't. Imagine following through on your word, or are you just going to bait and switch, just like company did for years because they were jerks, and somehow now you are the jerks.
It's as simple as that.

Makes sense!
I’ve watched this saga unfold for years, and it’s unfortunate the way the COMPANY orchestrated this nonsense affair of separate pilot groups. Nevertheless, Encore people held a strong position in supporting its Mainline counterparts in their quest for unification, and the black-balling of Swoop. To turn around and spit in their faces is just plain dark comedy. Any WJetter or whatever you call yourselves should be ashamed of yourselves for now not supporting your very own.
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Re: One list

Post by flyinhigh » Fri May 10, 2019 8:47 am

fish4life wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 8:35 pm
What top up pay ?
During Bargaining the Encore pilots negotiated a $1200 a month top up for a period of 24 months. Effectively this allows a pilot to flow and be close to year 3 pay at mainline. Former Encore pilots are mad because they chose to flow 1 month to 2 years ago, get the benefit of YOS and such but no top up.

Important note is that, NO Encore pilot gets any benefit of their contract until date of signing (May 2) so to back date the top up (known as REIP) makes no sense.
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Sat May 11, 2019 3:12 am

cloak wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 6:01 pm
It matters not what was said or not said to OTS pilots, Encore pilots - or anyone else for that matter - at the interview; this is a new day and new opportunity through a democratic process. Nothing is static in life. Times change and people must change with the times. Terminating the one list will simply make Encore develop its own merits. Some find it quite reasonable, some find it outrageous, whatever the case, raw emotions don't support one's point of view, they diminish it! And in final analysis the market is always right.
cloak,

Although I respect your opinion I'm afraid you've made two logical fallacies in your argument.

First, it does matter significantly as to what the key terms of the employment contract that the Encore pilots were working under. While you are correct that now that each pilot group has certified there is a different CA, there are a number of Encore pilots who have been working at Encore with flow and one list as a key term of their employment contract and, essentially, a factor in their wages & working conditions. This was something that was factored into their career decisions throughout their time at Encore and whether it made sense to remain at Encore or perhaps apply elsewhere. It's more than just was told to them at the interview.

Second, while there may be arguments for terminating the One List, it does not have to be done so in a way that has an extremely negative impact on the current 500+ Encore pilots. Like the previous example of Compass Airlines and Delta, any changes to the One List and/or flow provision should have the current pilots get grandfathered in. The objective debate of the merits of the One List is a separate debate from whether the mainline pilots should vote Yes on this current LOA. With the amendment clauses included in this LOA, your debate on whether terminating the One List would simply make Encore develop on its own merits could, in theory, continue (though I suspect most pilots are growing fatigued of such issues).

Voting No to the One List LOA will have a negative effect on the 500+ Encore pilots and an extremely drastic one on the Encore pilots who have been working at Encore for the last 3 to 5 years with the One List as a key term in their employment contract.

And while I agree with your general message of looking at these matters objectively without emotion, the fact remains that the vast majority of Encore pilots will feel royally screwed over and pissed off if this LOA fails. The negative impacts on the company that will ensue due to this division must also be considered. Especially when you look at the wording and amendment clasues of the LOA, it makes no sense for mainline pilots to vote No at this juncture.
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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: One list

Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Sat May 11, 2019 8:24 am

I disagree...still voting no!
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JBI
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Sat May 11, 2019 8:52 am

Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 8:24 am
I disagree...still voting no!
Make WestJet Great Again! :lol:
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Re: One list

Post by bob99 » Sat May 11, 2019 9:18 am

JBI wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 8:52 am
Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 8:24 am
I disagree...still voting no!
Make WestJet Great Again! :lol:
They do sound like Trump supporters, don't they? And you can't reason with those people.

Thanks for screwing over your Encore brothers and sisters :roll:
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Re: One list

Post by sstaurus » Sat May 11, 2019 9:38 am

Voting no will just make Swoop more attractive (if it could be at all). Instead of letting it fizzle out and squashing it like a bug, Swoop will grow to be a bigger thorn in your side. But I guess it's all about me me me again... unity can go fly a kite.
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