BETRAYAL!

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Mr. North
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BETRAYAL!

Post by Mr. North » Tue May 14, 2019 3:36 pm

To think the One List survived certification, negotiations, and arbitration only to meet it's end at the hands WJ PILOTS!! How incredibly ironic if it wasn't so disgusting!! Encore pilots have been the most loyal supporters of mainline pilots since their inception. I couldn't think of a more important time to have company wide UNITY now that Onex is taking over. But instead mainline pilots decide to alienate 550+ pilots (plus a few dozen more who have flowed)!! Good luck negotiating against each other in the years ahead!!! It's going to be ugly!!

SAD!
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Bede
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Bede » Tue May 14, 2019 3:52 pm

Agree 100%

Mark my words: in 5 years, we will recognize that this decision will be the one that comes back to bite us. I remember the days clearly at Jazz: the Jazz MEC doing everything they could to attract mainline flying and the AC pilots lowering the bar trying to keep up.

First our company threw us under the bus and look at the effects. Now we throw our young under the bus. Don't you think that Encore pilots will now see us in the same light as we see our management?
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Impact
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Impact » Tue May 14, 2019 4:07 pm

Mr North,

I don't look upon this as a betrayal, I look upon it as finding its normal equilibrium.

Was always a strong supporter of flow. Was a supporter of the one list as long as Encore pilots went BOTL upon arriving at mainline. Was never a supporter of the one list as it was structured.
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Benwa
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Benwa » Tue May 14, 2019 4:11 pm

How about putting the blame where it's deserved. Company removed the possibility to bump our way down to Encore in case of layoffs.

Let's make it a pure seniority list, and vote again. I'm quite certain that the one list vote would've been a Yes if that part hadn't been taken off the LOU.

Encore pilots suggesting a Jumpseat ban on WJ pilots ??? Seriously, you are going to ruin your Encore colleagues life if WJ pilots retaliate.
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Vanguard » Tue May 14, 2019 4:16 pm

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Mooseontheloose
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Mooseontheloose » Tue May 14, 2019 4:16 pm

ENCORE PILOTS GETTING THE SHAFT!!! NOTHING NEW HERE!!
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Gear Jerker » Tue May 14, 2019 4:24 pm

Impact wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:07 pm
Mr North,

I don't look upon this as a betrayal, I look upon it as finding its normal equilibrium.

Was always a strong supporter of flow. Was a supporter of the one list as long as Encore pilots went BOTL upon arriving at mainline. Was never a supporter of the one list as it was structured.
With respect,

I mean this logically, not personally. Your opinion does not matter in this regard. The fact is that the majority of pilots who came to Encore did so because the one list existed, and with eyes wide open endured below industry standard working conditions because of this guaranteed career progression with accrued seniority carrot dangling.

Why would anybody come here now? Jazz is doing 2 classes a month in perpetuity with a 90% flow guarantee, with a better contract. The result of this vote is unprecedented disunity and animosity between the Encore and Westjet pilot groups, and instability at Encore. I've personally held off on applying elsewhere because of the one list. Now, with a better contract at AC and starting at the bottom anywhere I go, there is no incentive to stay. Every one of my friends is of the same mind in this.

I personally will not be buying into the jumpseat ban unless it is in accordance with pilot unity at Encore, as I don't see anything accomplished in making a bad situation worse. But there will be guys getting refused as they're trying to commute home on the last flight. And make no mistake, ANY sense of unity I had before with "brothers and sisters" at Westjet, is COMPLETELY gone.
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Mr. North
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Mr. North » Tue May 14, 2019 4:28 pm

Impact wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:07 pm
Was never a supporter of the one list as it was structured.
Tell that to the 500+ Encore pilots who agreed to work under those terms, and whom are now SOL! As a former Encore pilot, this is a betrayal in every sense of the word.

Good luck with your Onex restructuring!
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by John1234 » Tue May 14, 2019 4:34 pm

Mainline pilots worried about layoffs? I would love to see how many WestJet Pilots would actually bid down to Encore instead of taking a commutable contract over seas making $$$$$ and spending more time at home. If that’s your argument I ain’t buying it for one.
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by daedalusx » Tue May 14, 2019 4:38 pm

Terrible terrible decision...Management always loves a divided pilot group... just look at Jazz. Onex is going to have you guys bend over and pick up the soap.

On the other hand, a jumpseat ban would be the stupidest retaliation, who comes up with these ideas?
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bob99
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by bob99 » Tue May 14, 2019 4:42 pm

The reason that people voted 'no' changed every other day. The layoff one is just the one you settled on because it made you sound like less of a bad guy. No one would ever bid to Encore.
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Vanguard » Tue May 14, 2019 4:55 pm

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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Dyna » Tue May 14, 2019 6:24 pm

bob99 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:42 pm
No one would ever bid to Encore.
You are quite correct, I would never bid down to Encore. I have more hours than I care for in a Q and the thought of one more hour flying one makes me want to puke. I highly doubt any mainline pilot would want to bump down to Encore. Take the emotion out of this and think rationally please. The ability for mainline pilots to bump down almost entirely eliminates the possibility of the company ever allowing it to happen. The retraining costs as everyone bumps would be massive. They’d be better off keeping us mainline guys where we are, employed and flying the jet. The AC MAX pilots weren’t sent to the unemployment line for that very reason. Take the ability for them to bump down away, and they’d have been on the street in March. THAT’S THE POINT!!

I have no regrets for my no vote. If the terms had been the same as WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR, it would have been a resounding YES for me. The terms changed, and by absolutely no lobbying by any mainline pilot. The company did this, personally I think they tried to slide in a shit LOU hoping that we’d be dumb enough to buy in. I’m actually surprised it didn’t work. Pilots aren’t the brightest bunch.

I have friends at Encore. Every single pilot there has my support and I will forward that to my MEC. That doesn’t mean I have to support a flawed LOU. Make the wording what we had previously, so we ALL have what we signed up for, and it’ll pass. This isn’t over by a long shot, despite the emotions on display here.

It’s worth mentioning that your MEC promoted this LOU saying that it made layoffs more manageable. Why in the blue f$&k would any Union do anything to make it easier for management to send the workforce to the unemployment line? Absolutely mind boggling.
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Rezy » Tue May 14, 2019 6:49 pm

Dyna wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:24 pm
bob99 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:42 pm
No one would ever bid to Encore.
You are quite correct, I would never bid down to Encore. I have more hours than I care for in a Q and the thought of one more hour flying one makes me want to puke. I highly doubt any mainline pilot would want to bump down to Encore. Take the emotion out of this and think rationally please. The ability for mainline pilots to bump down almost entirely eliminates the possibility of the company ever allowing it to happen. The retraining costs as everyone bumps would be massive. They’d be better off keeping us mainline guys where we are, employed and flying the jet. The AC MAX pilots weren’t sent to the unemployment line for that very reason. Take the ability for them to bump down away, and they’d have been on the street in March. THAT’S THE POINT!!

I have no regrets for my no vote. If the terms had been the same as WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR, it would have been a resounding YES for me. The terms changed, and by absolutely no lobbying by any mainline pilot. The company did this, personally I think they tried to slide in a shit LOU hoping that we’d be dumb enough to buy in. I’m actually surprised it didn’t work. Pilots aren’t the brightest bunch.

I have friends at Encore. Every single pilot there has my support and I will forward that to my MEC. That doesn’t mean I have to support a flawed LOU. Make the wording what we had previously, so we ALL have what we signed up for, and it’ll pass. This isn’t over by a long shot, despite the emotions on display here.

It’s worth mentioning that your MEC promoted this LOU saying that it made layoffs more manageable. Why in the blue f$&k would any Union do anything to make it easier for management to send the workforce to the unemployment line? Absolutely mind boggling.
AC pilots do not get the ability to bump into Jazz or Sky Regional if there are layoffs - so that’s a flawed argument.
If you’re in favour of a one list, Why would that one list not apply for everyone on the list in regards to layoffs?
Why would a 1 year OTS WJ hire have the ability to bump a 4 year Encore pilot out of their job? That’s an unprecedented ability and highly illegal, so it was removed from the LOU as it’d never stand up in courts.
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Biff
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Biff » Tue May 14, 2019 6:50 pm

What DYNA said...

I believe there will be a motion passed tomorrow night guys. The MEC will be mandated to renegotiate. If all the emotion I’m hearing here is real(and I’m sure it is), then the company would be stupid to not join us at the table. Don’t overreact until it’s over.
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by SPR » Tue May 14, 2019 6:55 pm

Dyna wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:24 pm
I have no regrets for my no vote...I have friends at Encore. Every single pilot there has my support and I will forward that to my MEC.
Cool. Here's what I think of that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__qSe1b_ukM
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by tps8903 » Tue May 14, 2019 7:11 pm

Biff wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:50 pm
What DYNA said...

I believe there will be a motion passed tomorrow night guys. The MEC will be mandated to renegotiate. If all the emotion I’m hearing here is real(and I’m sure it is), then the company would be stupid to not join us at the table. Don’t overreact until it’s over.
Well maybe both MEC's should send out some information. The last anyone has heard the WJ MEC "will not renegotiate the one list".
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by KAG » Tue May 14, 2019 7:43 pm

Rezy,
the reason ac pilots cant bump down to jazz or SR is because they have seperate lists. You go to AC from either company its BOTL.
As for not taking a dash spot from the jet in a layoff scenario - I would. You think a major down turn lasting years you'll ride the UI line for only so long. And a 100k position vs shit government handout looks pretty good after a while. Not everyone can or would take a contract xpat job.
Training costs, yes it's a consideration for the company but that's what happens at AC. A single reduction bid creates multiple training events.
You mentioned the scenario of a first year jet pilot bumping a 4 year encore pilot - no worries there can't happen, the 4th year pilot is senior.
Guys what killed this was wording not intent. I truly think it's going to get fixed. It better.
I'd hate to see history repeat itself (AC/air Ontario/jazz)
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Rezy
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Rezy » Tue May 14, 2019 7:55 pm

KAG wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:43 pm
Rezy,
the reason ac pilots cant bump down to jazz or SR is because they have seperate lists. You go to AC from either company its BOTL.
As for not taking a dash spot from the jet in a layoff scenario - I would. You think a major down turn lasting years you'll ride the UI line for only so long. And a 100k position vs shit government handout looks pretty good after a while. Not everyone can or would take a contract xpat job.
Training costs, yes it's a consideration for the company but that's what happens at AC. A single reduction bid creates multiple training events.
You mentioned the scenario of a first year jet pilot bumping a 4 year encore pilot - no worries there can't happen, the 4th year pilot is senior.
Guys what killed this was wording not intent. I truly think it's going to get fixed. It better.
I'd hate to see history repeat itself (AC/air Ontario/jazz)
Dyna suggested that AC Max pilots would be out on the street if they couldn’t bump another pilot, I was merely pointing out that they can’t bump into regional pilot positions.
The original LOU gave the ability for junior WJ pilots to bump a senior Encore pilot - that’s what I was addressing as it seemed that was what Dyna was promoting.
I agree that it should be one list up and one list down (layoffs), I now see the language that some people have had an issue with and agree that it’s somewhat problematic.
I also agree that almost all WJ would take a reduction to a q400 if it meant retaining employment. Taking away that ability obviously created a significant amount of discomfort with job security for WJ pilots.
Here’s to hoping it gets reworked and fixed for all parties.
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by KAG » Tue May 14, 2019 8:01 pm

Let cooler heads prevail. We'll get this sorted out.
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Impact » Tue May 14, 2019 8:06 pm

KAG wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:43 pm
.... You go to AC from either company its BOTL.
Which is the industry standard. Had that industry standard been followed here, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

There are indeed lessons to be learned from the AC/Air Ontario debacle.
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by jjj » Tue May 14, 2019 8:31 pm

Already some chatter about a JS ban.

Probably not a bad idea. Better to keep the area clear rather than getting under the skin of a pilot trying to do their job.

It’s your jump and I respect that.

The support for a true seniority list is there and this isn’t over yet.

I think cool heads will prevail.

I understand the sentiments of everyone at Encore and this kind of blow back was considered by many NO voters.

This is far from over.

Get mad at us and have your reaction - I get it.

We’ll be at the table again soon to sort this out.

JJJ
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by lostaviator » Tue May 14, 2019 9:36 pm

I don't think there will be another go at it. WestJet got what they wanted: A bunch of pink pilots AND they get to lay blame for this mess on the WJ pilots.

WJ has been playing this chess game ten times better then us since the day we filed for certification.
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by eyebrow737 » Wed May 15, 2019 3:05 am

jjj wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:31 pm
Already some chatter about a JS ban.

Probably not a bad idea. Better to keep the area clear rather than getting under the skin of a pilot trying to do their job.

It’s your jump and I respect that.

The support for a true seniority list is there and this isn’t over yet.

I think cool heads will prevail.

I understand the sentiments of everyone at Encore and this kind of blow back was considered by many NO voters.

This is far from over.

Get mad at us and have your reaction - I get it.

We’ll be at the table again soon to sort this out.

JJJ
More talk of jumpseat banning at WestJet JJJ? This time again with internal WestJet pilots?

Had it crossed any of your minds yet but that you are doing something wrong? And now a known corporate raider has bought WS... Time to come over to AC? You can get a special offer of 55k for four years.

Silly games by silly children
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by groundpilot » Wed May 15, 2019 8:08 am

eyebrow737 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:05 am
jjj wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:31 pm
Already some chatter about a JS ban.

Probably not a bad idea. Better to keep the area clear rather than getting under the skin of a pilot trying to do their job.

It’s your jump and I respect that.

The support for a true seniority list is there and this isn’t over yet.

I think cool heads will prevail.

I understand the sentiments of everyone at Encore and this kind of blow back was considered by many NO voters.

This is far from over.

Get mad at us and have your reaction - I get it.

We’ll be at the table again soon to sort this out.

JJJ
More talk of jumpseat banning at WestJet JJJ? This time again with internal WestJet pilots?

Had it crossed any of your minds yet but that you are doing something wrong? And now a known corporate raider has bought WS... Time to come over to AC? You can get a special offer of 55k for four years.

Silly games by silly children
FAKE NEWS

I would never defend the pay for the first 4 years at AC but this is WRONG

1st year your T4 will be above $60k, 2nd close to $70k, 3rd in the $80ks and 4th should be close to $100k

This is NOT including per diems. It varies a lot but a far, far cry from the $55k propaganda

And if you go left seat on any aircraft within the 4 years, the 4 years flat pay numbers are totally out the window
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