BETRAYAL!

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altiplano
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by altiplano » Wed May 15, 2019 8:25 am

Rezy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:49 pm
AC pilots do not get the ability to bump into Jazz or Sky Regional if there are layoffs - so that’s a flawed argument.
If you’re in favour of a one list, Why would that one list not apply for everyone on the list in regards to layoffs?
Why would a 1 year OTS WJ hire have the ability to bump a 4 year Encore pilot out of their job? That’s an unprecedented ability and highly illegal, so it was removed from the LOU as it’d never stand up in courts.
AC pilots can't bump down to the regionals because that's not our seniority list... but I could bump down to any position my seniority will hold in a reduction scenario. There are 20 positions in this company at present you can be qualified in. Reducing causes a lot of training.
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Impact
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Impact » Wed May 15, 2019 9:17 am

Mr. North wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:28 pm
Impact wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:07 pm
Was never a supporter of the one list as it was structured.
Tell that to the 500+ Encore pilots who agreed to work under those terms, and whom are now SOL! ....
I have in the past, and I'll continue to do so in the future. But let's face it, the way the one list was structured was an absolutely unprecedented and unrealistic windfall for Encore pilots. Balance needed to be restored, and there's still an outside chance it'll swing back in your favour, although I doubt that it will.

I don't blame you for being angry, but you were sold a bill of goods that some of us knew would not stand the test and scrutiny of time, especially given that the AC/Air Ontario decision was hot off the presses during the initial stages of the one-list discussions 6+ years ago. One could see this debacle coming a mile away had they opened their eyes to what has happened in the past.....taking human nature into account and all.
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FISH-FLY
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by FISH-FLY » Wed May 15, 2019 10:04 am

There is a lot of talk today about how this is going to get fixed, and that the MEC's and the company will be all over it ASAP. If that is the case, then why did the WJ MEC make it clear that a NO vote would be the end of this, and that the LOU was not up for renegotiation? Was that just a scare tactic to get a YES result? In other words, holy ****, they actually voted NO, we better fix this I guess? I'd be surprised if they went back on their word on that so quickly, or even at all. It wouldn't instill much confidence in their credibility.

The vote happened, and voters had ample time to become informed. As for the 400ish abstainers, that is a right of their's too. Not a sure bet that the bulk of them would've voted YES. There were likely a large number in there that chose to let the decided voters drive the outcome, or perhaps abstain rather than vote their preference which was NO. Sure, there was likely the odd dipshit that couldn't be bothered, but it's a leap to suggest that the vote would've gone in the other direction had those 400 decided to vote.
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Rezy
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Rezy » Wed May 15, 2019 10:33 am

FISH-FLY wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:04 am
There is a lot of talk today about how this is going to get fixed, and that the MEC's and the company will be all over it ASAP. If that is the case, then why did the WJ MEC make it clear that a NO vote would be the end of this, and that the LOU was not up for renegotiation? Was that just a scare tactic to get a YES result? In other words, holy ****, they actually voted NO, we better fix this I guess? I'd be surprised if they went back on their word on that so quickly, or even at all. It wouldn't instill much confidence in their credibility.

The vote happened, and voters had ample time to become informed. As for the 400ish abstainers, that is a right of their's too. Not a sure bet that the bulk of them would've voted YES. There were likely a large number in there that chose to let the decided voters drive the outcome, or perhaps abstain rather than vote their preference which was NO. Sure, there was likely the odd dipshit that couldn't be bothered, but it's a leap to suggest that the vote would've gone in the other direction had those 400 decided to vote.
I’m hopeful that it will get reworked, but I doubt that it will. To quote the MEC
“As we get further away from January 1 it becomes exponentially more difficult to ever reconstruct a list that has had all of the Encore DOH seniority placeholder positions stripped from it.”
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jjj
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by jjj » Thu May 16, 2019 12:37 am

eyebrow737 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:05 am
jjj wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:31 pm
Already some chatter about a JS ban.

Probably not a bad idea. Better to keep the area clear rather than getting under the skin of a pilot trying to do their job.

It’s your jump and I respect that.

The support for a true seniority list is there and this isn’t over yet.

I think cool heads will prevail.

I understand the sentiments of everyone at Encore and this kind of blow back was considered by many NO voters.

This is far from over.

Get mad at us and have your reaction - I get it.

We’ll be at the table again soon to sort this out.

JJJ
More talk of jumpseat banning at WestJet JJJ? This time again with internal WestJet pilots?

Had it crossed any of your minds yet but that you are doing something wrong? And now a known corporate raider has bought WS... Time to come over to AC? You can get a special offer of 55k for four years.

Silly games by silly children
Hi eyebrow.

Thanks for coming out.

It didn’t take 24 hrs and a motion is already in place to sort this out.

I don’t know how long it will take or if it will be successful but the crux of it all is to crystallize seniority across the subsidiaries of the parent company and not be subject to the handshake language of the failed LOA.

This is an initiative from WJ mainline pilots in support of our brothers and sisters at Encore.

There is no betrayal - there is a a drive to do this correctly.

Regards to all.

For those affected in this term of uncertainty I understand your sentiments and respect your reactions. I respect those who choose to close the jumpseat. That is your prerogative.

Cheers.

JJJ

eyebrow - your offer is declined
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I WAS Birddog
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by I WAS Birddog » Fri May 17, 2019 6:34 pm

lostaviator wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:36 pm
WJ has been playing this chess game ten times better then us since the day we filed for certification.
+1

Just because pilots fly sophisticated machines into complex airspace doesn't mean pilots are sophisticated in strategic maneuvering in complex business negotiations. ALPA fncked you...and for that you pay them 1.9% of your hard earned salary.

Hats off to the company executives. Checkmate.
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Transonic
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Transonic » Fri May 17, 2019 8:42 pm

I WAS Birddog wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 6:34 pm
lostaviator wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:36 pm
WJ has been playing this chess game ten times better then us since the day we filed for certification.
+1

Just because pilots fly sophisticated machines into complex airspace doesn't mean pilots are sophisticated in strategic maneuvering in complex business negotiations. ALPA fncked you...and for that you pay them 1.9% of your hard earned salary.

Hats off to the company executives. Checkmate.

Really?

Mainline pilots secured YOS, Trip and Duty rigs and industry standard Scope. The cost is a 180 million gain over 4 years, according to ALPA.

The result; The CEO, EVP Ops and EVP Swoop retired in 2018. Now, the lasting founder and chairmen of the board will retire with ONEX purchase.

WestJet intended for all NGs to be on Swoop's OC, a new narrow body jet at Encore and only MAX/787 at WestJet.

That did not happen. Swoop is only a ULCC, with no integration with WestJet.

The win/lose attitude of 2018 didn't work and we all suffered.

So far, the latest trend indicates an inflection - think win win.

The one list will be solved. We all want it.

Go WestJet.
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by aerobod » Fri May 17, 2019 9:48 pm

Transonic wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:42 pm
WestJet intended for all NGs to be on Swoop's OC, a new narrow body jet at Encore and only MAX/787 at WestJet.

That did not happen. Swoop is only a ULCC, with no integration with WestJet.
The initial planning for Swoop in early 2017 always envisioned a completely separate operation from WestJet due to the cost model not being achievable with any integration or all the overhead that codeshare and using systems such as Sabre compared with Navitaire brings.

Swoop was always planned from the beginning to operate only one aircraft configuration, basically modelled on Ryanair with 189 seat 738s.

All budget and project resources assigned to Swoop in early 2017 were based on these two basic principles, with the 7c CASM target being rigidly enforced (as presented at the Investor Days in Dec 2017).

The ULCC market that Swoop is designed to compete in has also been estimated to be in the range of 40 to 70 aircraft over the next 5 years or so for all Canadian operators, so the whole NG fleet would not be able to be deployed into the ULCC market.

I’m sure it is surprising to many on this forum, but pilot considerations were only a small component of all the decisions on what, why and how Swoop was implemented.

WestJet mainline has never been planned as an all MAX or 787 fleet, as the MAX “7.5” with the extra seats would leave major gaps in the correct aircraft on many routes that the -600 and -700s currently meet, especially as the MAX 7s may never be taken, with a shift towards only MAX 8s and 10s.

If Encore ever does take jets such as the A220-100, it would take a minimum of 5 years for anything to be viable due to aircraft availability and rework of the business model and would also be a strange fit with the current firm Boeing orders that require seats to be filled. It would also be very disruptive while still trying to build Swoop / ULCC and international widebody markets - something that would have caused even more analyst angst and stock price uncertainty if it was true.
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Red1 » Sat May 18, 2019 7:58 am

I really don't want to repeat history again, because it was bad, and beyond wasteful.

So everyone stop, take a deep breath and remove the emotion.

The question Encore pilots need to simply ask, Why? Why did the majority of WestJet mainline pilots vote down this LOU.
-Do you believe they simply wanted to F-over 500 some encore pilots just cause? probably not.
- Where mad at management and saw this LOU as a Lever to re-open negotiation again? maybe some.
- Could potentially gain in seniority as the Encore pilots would be removed from the list? very few.
- Didn't like the language in the LOU as it deviated from the original LOU which included bump-down language in case off lay-offs? most likely.

The questions WestJet mainline pilots need to ask is
-did you think how this would personally be perceived by 500 plus encore pilots, you just sucker punched them in the gut? probably not, everyone always misses the personal side.
- do you really, I mean really think this will open up the contract again? it wont.
- did you consider that the whipsaw affect of a no vote could potentially be worse than not having the bump-down protection? scope I get it... but I wouldn't want to bet the farm on scope language?
- hoped that a no vote would be followed by a quick regroup, followed by a second LOU that included bump-down language? it won't this will take time.

I truly believe that its in every pilots (and I mean everyone's) interest that the one list gets solved. We can't repeat the sins of our past. But this will take time, it wont be solved overnight and people need to be patient. Jump seat bans,etc are just plain stupid and wont help your cause. Instead ask why, why did it fail, and get back to negotiating a solution.
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livin'
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by livin' » Sat May 18, 2019 9:52 am

Rezy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:55 pm
KAG wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:43 pm
Rezy,
the reason ac pilots cant bump down to jazz or SR is because they have seperate lists. You go to AC from either company its BOTL.
As for not taking a dash spot from the jet in a layoff scenario - I would. You think a major down turn lasting years you'll ride the UI line for only so long. And a 100k position vs shit government handout looks pretty good after a while. Not everyone can or would take a contract xpat job.
Training costs, yes it's a consideration for the company but that's what happens at AC. A single reduction bid creates multiple training events.
You mentioned the scenario of a first year jet pilot bumping a 4 year encore pilot - no worries there can't happen, the 4th year pilot is senior.
Guys what killed this was wording not intent. I truly think it's going to get fixed. It better.
I'd hate to see history repeat itself (AC/air Ontario/jazz)
Dyna suggested that AC Max pilots would be out on the street if they couldn’t bump another pilot, I was merely pointing out that they can’t bump into regional pilot positions.
The original LOU gave the ability for junior WJ pilots to bump a senior Encore pilot - that’s what I was addressing as it seemed that was what Dyna was promoting.
I agree that it should be one list up and one list down (layoffs), I now see the language that some people have had an issue with and agree that it’s somewhat problematic.
I also agree that almost all WJ would take a reduction to a q400 if it meant retaining employment. Taking away that ability obviously created a significant amount of discomfort with job security for WJ pilots.
Here’s to hoping it gets reworked and fixed for all parties.
The big difference here is that Jazz/Skyregional are each independent companies of which Air Canada owns 0%. Its my understanding that Westjet owns 100% of Encore...ie. common employer. AC pilots aren’t able to and shouldn’t be able to bump into Jazz positions in the event of layoffs but WJ pilots should be able to bump into Encore. Because you have a common employer then flow should be able to go both ways.
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by DropTanks » Sat May 18, 2019 11:19 am

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Last edited by DropTanks on Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Demeter
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Demeter » Sat May 18, 2019 1:35 pm

Attention MEC, please make it a priority to fixing the one list. Most everyone wants if it only contained even partial language around flow back. Pilot #1 and his forum buddy need to start pulling their heads outta their butts. The group has finally started to figure out they have always been about themselves. :?
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Transonic
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by Transonic » Mon May 20, 2019 6:07 pm

aerobod wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:48 pm
Transonic wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:42 pm
WestJet intended for all NGs to be on Swoop's OC, a new narrow body jet at Encore and only MAX/787 at WestJet.

That did not happen. Swoop is only a ULCC, with no integration with WestJet.
The initial planning for Swoop in early 2017 always envisioned a completely separate operation from WestJet due to the cost model not being achievable with any integration or all the overhead that codeshare and using systems such as Sabre compared with Navitaire brings.

Swoop was always planned from the beginning to operate only one aircraft configuration, basically modelled on Ryanair with 189 seat 738s.

All budget and project resources assigned to Swoop in early 2017 were based on these two basic principles, with the 7c CASM target being rigidly enforced (as presented at the Investor Days in Dec 2017).

The ULCC market that Swoop is designed to compete in has also been estimated to be in the range of 40 to 70 aircraft over the next 5 years or so for all Canadian operators, so the whole NG fleet would not be able to be deployed into the ULCC market.

I’m sure it is surprising to many on this forum, but pilot considerations were only a small component of all the decisions on what, why and how Swoop was implemented.

WestJet mainline has never been planned as an all MAX or 787 fleet, as the MAX “7.5” with the extra seats would leave major gaps in the correct aircraft on many routes that the -600 and -700s currently meet, especially as the MAX 7s may never be taken, with a shift towards only MAX 8s and 10s.

If Encore ever does take jets such as the A220-100, it would take a minimum of 5 years for anything to be viable due to aircraft availability and rework of the business model and would also be a strange fit with the current firm Boeing orders that require seats to be filled. It would also be very disruptive while still trying to build Swoop / ULCC and international widebody markets - something that would have caused even more analyst angst and stock price uncertainty if it was true.
You're absolutely right about pilots being self-centered!

My apologies for not being clearer, I meant that the Swoop OC would harbour all NGs and thus be operated by the conditions of the LOU while branded as WestJet.

The above statement comes second hand from one of our negotiators. WestJet's proposal was a small narrow body jet at Encore, anything at Swoop and all 1500 WS pilots would remain employed at WestJet. Therefore A220s at Encore, MAX and 787s at WestJet that employ 1500 pilots and the balance of WestJet branded NGs on the Swoop OC along with Swoop or WestJet branded 767s.

Kaplan ruled fairly. He awarded a Scope clause that provides Swoop the room it needs to fill the ULCC void but does not harm any mainline growth. Which is exactly what WestJet's public message was however not what they proposed.

All is in the past and most of those decision makers are gone. IMHO, the attitude from leadership is changing.

Onward and Upward.
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swimming
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Re: BETRAYAL!

Post by swimming » Mon May 20, 2019 6:35 pm

76 seat A220 eh? That’s some serious leg room!
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