A "NEW" One List?

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mbav8r
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by mbav8r »

mbav8r wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:44 am
cloak wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:33 am
sstaurus wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:57 am Well those who were upset about Encore making concessions, must be right happy now that the mainline MEC wasn't able to save a single job. Those top ~500 guys can now continue making 150-200K +ESP while the rest get laid off.
Your disappointment is understandable. This is an unprecedented challenge which requires unprecedented new approaches. It also presents an opportunity to rebuild trust and improve relationships through cooperation and transparency. Most carriers around the globe have either stopped flying altogether or reduced hours substantially for a number of months.

The company must have offered something, either similar to April or similar to Encore, lower, higher...whatever it was, it is best to put that information to the membership and let them decide by ratifying it. I believe ALPA represented U.S carriers did just that fairly quickly online.

The company should also offer more appealing early retirement packages. This is to their advantage too as it reduces payroll at the top. It also creates new opportunities and allows these folks to take their well deserved retirements, so it's a win-win.
Cloak, you were a very vocal opponent to the one list, my question, did you take a lay-off or avail yourself to a spot at Encore?
You know cloak, no answer is still an answer, just saying.
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sstaurus
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by sstaurus »

Bede wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:52 am
sstaurus wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:57 am Well those who were upset about Encore making concessions, must be right happy now that the mainline MEC wasn't able to save a single job. Those top ~500 guys can now continue making 150-200K +ESP while the rest get laid off.
Actually, the MEC was capable of saving 1000 pilot jobs. However, the MEC is responsive to the membership and the membership clearly did not want to make concessions and therefore there was no deal. You can't "Hold the Line" while at the same time caving to the company's demands to save jobs.
I keep hearing this from a select few, but have yet to see any evidence that that is what the majority wished for. Obviously those at the top would like to continue making full contract, but I would bet that the majority of the rest would have gone with even a continuation of 55hrs or something similar. Share the pain and all that... I'm highly doubtful there were that many who wanted to fall on their sword and get laid off just to "hold the line". Sunset clauses or economic indicators can be used to restore the contract when the time comes like over at AC. Anyway, I guess we can only hope for the future at this point and move on.
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doiwannabeapilot
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

Maxpwr wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:39 am Company must have offered a huge cut including lower hours along with no ESP. So ALPA at the behest of the membership told them to go @#$! themselves. Lots of high fives going around right now. Well done. Now to focus on making sure WJ adheres to the contract for the huge layoffs they set into motion. Something about making a bed...lying in it....I dunno.
yeah, stick it to the man !
I hope they run out of cash and go billions into the red !
that'll be AWESOME ! Great success! Super high fives!
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Last edited by doiwannabeapilot on Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
doiwannabeapilot
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

Why should the current guys on property care about the PTA anymore? Doesn't really affect them that much anymore.
In true piloty fashion; who cares about everyone else.
jjj wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:53 am
sstaurus wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:57 am Well those who were upset about Encore making concessions, must be right happy now that the mainline MEC wasn't able to save a single job. Those top ~500 guys can now continue making 150-200K +ESP while the rest get laid off.
Correct that the WS MEC did not reduce the number of lay offs. What they did do was work full time on lay off mitigation until yesterday I believe. What we don't know is what they were up against. I can just imagine what the company wanted.

When this all turns around - pilots need good jobs to go back to. Laid off Encore pilots need the same light at the end of the tunnel that was there before.

I stand by my assertion that the Encore concessions were a blunder. Most of the pilots they were looking out for have been flushed. The bump down pilots are not happy with MOA 2.

The Pilot Transfer Agreement remains in jeopardy and I assure you it is not a retribution.

I stand by the WS MEC.
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cloak
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by cloak »

Using clichés like "hold the line", "stick it to them" are not negotiation and don't work at all under the current environment and are to the detriment of the pilot group because one supposedly "holds the line" against foreign enemies entering one's home; these are discussions and negotiations among parties very interested in the longevity and long term success of the company. In this world pandemic all airlines are cutting hours and working to mitigate the impact, which helps colleagues to stay on, saves the company money and helps with the recovery.

Accepting temporary lower blocks, similar to April arrangements, and also deferring (not cancel) ESPs are some of the "temporary" measures to cope with substantially reduced demand while also minimizing layoffs with automatic triggers whereby laid off pilots will be recalled and blocks restored if certain hours of OT are used. Maybe even try to negotiate other deferred income, in addition to ESP, when the company is doing well again. Regardless of the past, this is a good opportunity to foster new cooperation and work constructively for the common good.
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Gear Jerker
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Gear Jerker »

cloak beat me to it with a similar post. Anyway...




This "hold the line" analogy is quite ridiculous to me.

In reality, holding the line refers to a war, in which individual soldiers sacrifice their lives to ensure that their battalion/platoon/company etc can maintain its position and not retreat and give up ground. It is the ultimate selfless act.

In the case of WJ MEC layoff mitigation, it's a case of sacrificing the vast majority so that the small minority who's employee numbers are smaller can carry on unaffected while the vast majority makes $2000/mo on CERB once CEWS expires. Talk about a paycut. Talk about the opposite of selflessness.

Nobody answered my question previously.

Seriously guys... I have an open mind here. Given the scale and scope of this disruption to our industry, why is 0 concessions for maximum layoffs a good thing that you're in favour of?

Before anyone makes the argument of doing it ensure that the company follows the contract when times are good again... Encore's MOA1 and MOA2 both have expiry periods, at which point it is back to status quo in the CA. They also include triggers for renegotation as the company's income starts to increase again.

I really don't understand your side of the story, but I'm trying to.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by hurtin'albertan »

cloak wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:54 pm Using clichés like "hold the line", "stick it to them" are not negotiation and don't work at all under the current environment and are to the detriment of the pilot group because one supposedly "holds the line" against foreign enemies entering one's home; these are discussions and negotiations among parties very interested in the longevity and long term success of the company. In this world pandemic all airlines are cutting hours and working to mitigate the impact, which helps colleagues to stay on, saves the company money and helps with the recovery.

Accepting temporary lower blocks, similar to April arrangements, and also deferring (not cancel) ESPs are some of the "temporary" measures to cope with substantially reduced demand while also minimizing layoffs with automatic triggers whereby laid off pilots will be recalled and blocks restored if certain hours of OT are used. Maybe even try to negotiate other deferred income, in addition to ESP, when the company is doing well again. Regardless of the past, this is a good opportunity to foster new cooperation and work constructively for the common good.
I tend to agree with most of this. However, I have a hard time believing that our MEC or the negots guys would reject something reasonable like what you are saying in your second paragraph like temp lower block, ESP defer, sunset clauses based on time and or economic indicators, other REASONABLE TEMPORARY terms. We already had a fairly workable thing going for April that was acceptable once upon a time.

If I'm a betting man and just from chatter among the pilots I've talked to fwiw I'm thinking the company must have demanded some pretty wacky shit on top of a lower MMG and pause on esp for a while. But who the heck knows? Well I guess the mec reps and negots guys do, lol.

THis is in reply to gear jerker above too.
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mbav8r
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by mbav8r »

Or, this could be an indication that it’s not a temporary situation, the resumption could be a lot longer than anyone is expecting.
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

if its a lot longer....in that case, concessions would be even more desireable n'est-ce pas ?

Well, as long as the most senior people, (who one would reasonably expect or hope are in the best financial position) are ok and
employed at 100% salary !
The rest of us should be good on $573/week.

That's their prerogative, I guess.

mbav8r wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:32 pm Or, this could be an indication that it’s not a temporary situation, the resumption could be a lot longer than anyone is expecting.
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by lostaviator »

doiwannabeapilot wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:04 pm if its a lot longer....in that case, concessions would be even more desireable n'est-ce pas ?

Well, as long as the most senior people, (who one would reasonably expect or hope are in the best financial position) are ok and
employed at 100% salary !
The rest of us should be good on $573/week.

That's their prerogative, I guess.

mbav8r wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:32 pm Or, this could be an indication that it’s not a temporary situation, the resumption could be a lot longer than anyone is expecting.
They need to make their money back that they lost with the DH credit change. :rolleyes:
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by mbav8r »

doiwannabeapilot wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:04 pm if its a lot longer....in that case, concessions would be even more desireable n'est-ce pas ?

Well, as long as the most senior people, (who one would reasonably expect or hope are in the best financial position) are ok and
employed at 100% salary !
The rest of us should be good on $573/week.

That's their prerogative, I guess.
mbav8r wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:32 pm Or, this could be an indication that it’s not a temporary situation, the resumption could be a lot longer than anyone is expecting.
Well, not to be a dick but the ones at the top have been through a downturn or two, a lay-off or three, so yah if it’s going to be a long term thing better to just deal with the inevitable now.
Also, keep in mind there are many other costs associated with active employees, even a part time one.
For me, this is my third downturn and I will not make the next cut if any come, I don’t support the guys above me working for less so I can stay. I will be fine, I’ll use my savings and other skills to ride out this one which hopefully will be shorter than it’s starting to look like.
I drove a truck for 3 1/2 years and then flew a clapped out piece of crap for several piece of crap operations for a few years after the last one, so your woe is me, share the pain is falling on many deaf ears.
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doiwannabeapilot
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

Fair enough. Like I said, its their prerogative. I have no problem with it.
I also have no problem with CEO or executive salaries (this company or others), and I don't believe there are such things as greedy corporations either.
mbav8r wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:22 pm
doiwannabeapilot wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:04 pm if its a lot longer....in that case, concessions would be even more desireable n'est-ce pas ?

Well, as long as the most senior people, (who one would reasonably expect or hope are in the best financial position) are ok and
employed at 100% salary !
The rest of us should be good on $573/week.

That's their prerogative, I guess.
mbav8r wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:32 pm Or, this could be an indication that it’s not a temporary situation, the resumption could be a lot longer than anyone is expecting.
Well, not to be a dick but the ones at the top have been through a downturn or two, a lay-off or three, so yah if it’s going to be a long term thing better to just deal with the inevitable now.
Also, keep in mind there are many other costs associated with active employees, even a part time one.
For me, this is my third downturn and I will not make the next cut if any come, I don’t support the guys above me working for less so I can stay. I will be fine, I’ll use my savings and other skills to ride out this one which hopefully will be shorter than it’s starting to look like.
I drove a truck for 3 1/2 years and then flew a clapped out piece of crap for several piece of crap operations for a few years after the last one, so your woe is me, share the pain is falling on many deaf ears.
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Madman
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Madman »

WestJets biggest problem...ALPA, and the incompetence that their decisions made by those to represent and make the best decisions for ALL its members.
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by 80ktszzz »

:lol:
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by FlyingMonkey »

Madman wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:19 pm WestJets biggest problem...ALPA, and the incompetence that their decisions made by those to represent and make the best decisions for ALL its members.
You don’t make any sense.
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Red1 »

I blame everyone and no one. In any negotiations there are always two sides, and three stories. Only hindsight will allow us to look back and determine if the MEC/NC was willing to give enough or if the company was willing to negotiate at all. Could lay-off mitigations prevent the layoff of some of the pilots, how many, and at what cost. Hold the line is a nice token statement, until your collecting EI and out of a job for two years, then it means nothing. I still hold out some hope that a deal will get done, once cooler heads prevail and people begin to realize the devastating impact this will have on everyone in the pilot group.
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by flyinhigh »

Curious question as I have not read the PTA.

Is there language during recall that prevents an Encore pilot from being called to go to the 37? and holding a 37 driver on the Q. (i.e, The called back individual does not have the experience to be a Q captain yet. Can they hold the 37 driver on the Q in this case)

Genuinely curious as everyone has a number and this is Westjet after all.
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lostaviator
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by lostaviator »

flyinhigh wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:43 am Curious question as I have not read the PTA.

Is there language during recall that prevents an Encore pilot from being called to go to the 37? and holding a 37 driver on the Q. (i.e, The called back individual does not have the experience to be a Q captain yet. Can they hold the 37 driver on the Q in this case)

Genuinely curious as everyone has a number and this is Westjet after all.
Recalls are by seniority and seniority alone. Well... that's how it's supposed to be, but we will see what tricks WJ has up their sleeves in the future.
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tbayav8er
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by tbayav8er »

By my understanding, recall will be based on seniority, but it will be a recall to your respective bargaining group. So if you were laid off from WJ, you will be recalled to WJ. If you were laid off from Encore, you will be recalled to Encore. In other words, no, a more senior Encore pilot could not be recalled to WJ.
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lostaviator
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by lostaviator »

tbayav8er wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:27 am By my understanding, recall will be based on seniority, but it will be a recall to your respective bargaining group. So if you were laid off from WJ, you will be recalled to WJ. If you were laid off from Encore, you will be recalled to Encore. In other words, no, a more senior Encore pilot could not be recalled to WJ.
But a year 10 FO can be recalled to Year 1 Swoop FO! What a system!!!!
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