A "NEW" One List?

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
cjet
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:26 pm
Location: yyc

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by cjet »

fish4life wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:10 am What is the seniority of the negotiators at WestJet? Did they keep their jobs?
2 will be laid off June 1 and another will bump down into Encore as a Capt. The negotiators had a mandate of no concessions from the membership.

Cjet
---------- ADS -----------
 
yvrpilot82
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:26 pm

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by yvrpilot82 »

The salt in the wound is any Swoop pilot will have preference over WestJet spots before a WestJet pilot who decided to remain furloughed instead of taking a pink tie. Seniority takes second place to a spot as an "active pilot" it would seem.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Commonwealth
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:26 pm

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Commonwealth »

yvrpilot82 wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:25 pm The salt in the wound is any Swoop pilot will have preference over WestJet spots before a WestJet pilot who decided to remain furloughed instead of taking a pink tie. Seniority takes second place to a spot as an "active pilot" it would seem.
I do not follow this logic. All current Swoop pilots are to be furloughed May 1 and June 1. When this happens are they all not considered “inactive?” How do Swoop pilots get preference for WestJet positions out of seniority?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
CaptainHaddock
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:22 am
Location: Nowhere fast

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by CaptainHaddock »

I think the short term concession MMG of 55 or even 50 would have been given for a longer MOA pretty easily, I could see differing the ESP until certain metrics are met by the company. But waiving the ESP (basically our retirement savings) for a longer term tied to any relaxing of scope on Swoop or at Encore is a bridge to far. This is an unprecedented blow to our industry and the economies of the world, and the majority of us are willing to cut back, the 50-55MMG and differing our ESP is already a 40+% cost cut. That would fly I am guessing, but add on top of that the expansion of the Swoop WAWCON and your just cementing in those cuts for ever. The company could have easily mitigated layoff with just those two items-but I am guessing they wanted to tie other items to it to change the contract. The fact that WJ continues to pour money down the Swoop hole just proves that they are dead set on resetting our WAWCON with it. Why else run two 737 domestic airlines on top of each other when you have a 95% drop in capacity. 🤷‍♀️
---------- ADS -----------
 
Billions of Bilious Blue Blistering Barnacles!
User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Bede »

.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Bede on Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Bede »

.
---------- ADS -----------
 
cloak
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by cloak »

CaptainHaddock wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:51 pm I think the short term concession MMG of 55 or even 50 would have been given for a longer MOA pretty easily, I could see differing the ESP until certain metrics are met by the company....
Under the circumstances likely most agree, so the question remains why the union has not communicated the offer? The main reasons for a "union" were transparency and inclusivity (in decision-making), neither of which are being done with this union. What is the difference if instead of the company they decide what's best! The 1700 laid-off pilots deserve to know the offer, as the pilot group deserve a chance to vote.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Maxpwr
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:12 pm

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Maxpwr »

.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Maxpwr on Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
cloak
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by cloak »

Maxpwr wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:11 pm We didn’t see the offer because it was laughable. The NC sees it, laughs, then counters. At the end of the day the offer might have moved from laughable to merely insulting. Talks are over now as they should be. And yes the NC is getting praise for listening to the pilot group and not giving away the farm. If a deal is to be made then it has to be reasonable. The pilots alone should bear the entire cost of this situation.
Why do you say "the pilots alone should bear the cost of this situation"?
And If you haven't seen the offer, how do you know it was laughable?
Maybe the pilot group should decide through a vote on whether the offer was laughable, insulting or other variations?!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Squid
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Timmins

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Squid »

Maxpwr wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:11 pm
cloak wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:15 pm
CaptainHaddock wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:51 pm I think the short term concession MMG of 55 or even 50 would have been given for a longer MOA pretty easily, I could see differing the ESP until certain metrics are met by the company....
Under the circumstances likely most agree, so the question remains why the union has not communicated the offer? The main reasons for a "union" were transparency and inclusivity (in decision-making), neither of which are being done with this union. What is the difference if instead of the company they decide what's best! The 1700 laid-off pilots deserve to know the offer, as the pilot group deserve a chance to vote.
We didn’t see the offer because it was laughable. The NC sees it, laughs, then counters. At the end of the day the offer might have moved from laughable to merely insulting. Talks are over now as they should be. And yes the NC is getting praise for listening to the pilot group and not giving away the farm. If a deal is to be made then it has to be reasonable. The pilots alone should bear the entire cost of this situation.
My brother was talking to the NC guy from YQT. He was telling him they didn’t want to accept the reduced mmg with a reduced work month in days. Apparently would have saved a pile of jobs is my guess just like it did for us. Then the LEC really has no choice but to support it I guess. Would be a good question to ask for all to hear the real answer and not this way. Not really fair that you don’t hear a peep as to the real why. Your guys. Your inexperienced negot committee.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Furloughed
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:44 pm
Location: Calgary

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Furloughed »

Nobody saw the results of the one and only survey. And in my opinion the survey should have had more options and/or a comment section.

I don't think anybody really thought there would be 1700 actual layoffs which is exactly what happened.

I don't think anyone thought "hold the line" or whatever juvenile slogan they were pushing before this harsh reality set in (I don't think it truly has set in yet for a lot of people) meant 1700 people wondering how to pay the mortgage in 8 to 12 months, while the top few hundred keep their full salaries, and 20% ESPP.

I do think that there should have been a lot more communication during this process while still respecting the NDA I am sure they all had to sign.

I also think the last and final offer of the Company should have gone to a vote of the entire membership. Mgmt and the NC would have had to agree to the wording of the release, but at least the NC would have had a clear mandate to accept or reject based on facts. Then if 1700 people were still laid off, so be it, but everyone would have had a final say in their destiny.

And people are seriously patting the NC on the back for what they accomplished? Winding up with the absolute worst case scenario possible for the majority of the Membership?

And does anyone want to confirm that we will still be paying Alpa dues on the CEWS? I mean the Government is willing to forgive the Company from paying the employer portion of CPP & EI as this isn't actual "earnings". Is ALPA going to throw us a tiny 2% bone and waive their dues on CEWS (E stands for Emergency, and S for Subsidy). My guess is NO, I mean they did accomplish so much for us in this process, but one can hope. If this CEWS gets extended to 20 weeks, that is $335.41 per pilot in ALPA dues we will be paying off of our Emergency Wage Subsidy. That's a car payment or a couple weeks groceries for some of us. I can't wait to see the answer to this.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Mrbobmarly111
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:29 am

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Mrbobmarly111 »

I've worked at 2 ALPA companies and they are the absolute worst (westjet wasn't one of them btw). And long story short Mother Alpa is nowhere to be seen. I am not going to go into all the many reasons I have for truly hating them. But people should start opening their eyes. When every ALPA company has its members saying the same thing "its not alpa its the representation..." well screw it. Keep save help your neighbors and for the love of god. Tell your friends to vote no next time alpa comes selling snake oil.
---------- ADS -----------
 
hurtin'albertan
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:40 pm

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by hurtin'albertan »

Squid wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:33 pm
My brother was talking to the NC guy from YQT. He was telling him they didn’t want to accept the reduced mmg with a reduced work month in days. Apparently would have saved a pile of jobs is my guess just like it did for us. Then the LEC really has no choice but to support it I guess. Would be a good question to ask for all to hear the real answer and not this way. Not really fair that you don’t hear a peep as to the real why. Your guys. Your inexperienced negot committee.
Sorry "they" the company or "they" the NC and MEC? Cause I'd take a lower MMG and less days on the hook that they could sked me for for the summer if it meant I and more guys kept our jobs and more guys kept their seats.

But that's just me.

But fwiw i heard "they" the company also wanted to basically erase the scope section and recall into the pink suckhole, which other posters have also heard. Not a stretch to wonder why since "they" the company have been talking up swoop every Wednesday at 2pm... :roll: :x

So maybe we should ask for the straight goods from our reps?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Madman
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:16 am

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Madman »

cloak wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:15 pm
CaptainHaddock wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:51 pm I think the short term concession MMG of 55 or even 50 would have been given for a longer MOA pretty easily, I could see differing the ESP until certain metrics are met by the company....
Under the circumstances likely most agree, so the question remains why the union has not communicated the offer? The main reasons for a "union" were transparency and inclusivity (in decision-making), neither of which are being done with this union. What is the difference if instead of the company they decide what's best! The 1700 laid-off pilots deserve to know the offer, as the pilot group deserve a chance to vote.
Absolutely....I totally agree. Where’s the transparency?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Squid
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Timmins

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Squid »

“They” meaning your negotiating committee. The NC guys with years of experience? Sorry. I know sensitive times. Guess you won’t know until the questions are asked but that would be a great question to ask on what the minimum guarantee proposal(s) was. Really sad to hear none of this came back to the group. My napkin math probably saved you guys at least 750 -900 spots. Just a guess. How good is that when u say hurtin Albertan that “you heard” when you work there.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Maxpwr
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:12 pm

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Maxpwr »

.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Maxpwr on Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
flyinhigh
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2599
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:42 pm
Location: my couch

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by flyinhigh »

Guys, this is Westjet. The negotiating group on the companies side is a bunch of snakes (I worked across the table from this group for over a year). They would have absolutely used this down turn to extract numerous clauses from the current agreement you have just to save a penny and screw you in the futher. If your negotiating team (who I know personally and can't say enough about) sent them packing, than count your lucky blessings.

As for seeing a final offer from the company to vote. If both parties are under a NDA, you will not see anything as it would be a material breach and I can guarantee whenever financials are discussed this would apply.
Maxpwr wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:14 am AC seems to have come up with reasonable deals yet WESTJET wants to use this situation to stick their hand in our chest and rip out our beating hearts. Not gonna happen this time, and that’s refreshing.
This is because Westjet is hell bound on repeating at 50 years of history thinking the pilot group will take it. The management group their should all be turffed (with the exception of SIms and Martin, i've had some good chats with them and they seem genuinely thoughtful and concerned), they don't have any business experience, they just kissed ass all the way up.
---------- ADS -----------
 
jjj
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 737
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:53 am

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by jjj »

The NC is looking way into the future well beyond a 2 year recovery. They are looking into the next contract.

When the dust settles and it will - this group needs to be back where it was.

WS is operating at 5% capacity. How many jobs of the 1700 lost do you think they could have saved @Furlough? At what cost? Spitballing says they would have saved a couple hundred jobs. The tipping point being somewhere to avoid a bottleneck of training as an example. Not worth it when the next 1500 guys come back at 50% wages as Swoop pilots feeding the WS network.

Have a good day.

JJJ
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2219
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by rudder »

This is meant as a comment not a criticism.

It is ironic that during the 2000-2010 decade, AC had its low points in labour relations.in many cases it took third party intervention to avoid strike/lockout, to impose collective agreements, and was generally viewed as a decade of gross discord between labour and senior management. Contrast that to labour relations AC between 2011-2020. Consensual agreements. Growth. Prosperity. And even the COVID crisis has not yet triggered a harsh word between labour and senior management (just some criticism of the relative inaction of the Federal government thus far as it applies to the airline sector).

Meanwhile, at WJ the first decade of the 21st century was generally positive. Forward progress. Growth. Shared success. Oh, and repeated public jabs from WJ senior management (CB in particular) about how dysfunctional the employee-employer relationship was at AC compared to WJ. In other words - gloating.

And the second decade? Less shared success. Growing pains. Unionization. Labour discord. The end of public ownership. And circa 2020, an inability to deal in an honest and forthright manner on the largest existential crisis that air carriers will face in their history.

Why has WJ chosen this tactic? Or ONEX? Who knows.

Regardless, it certainly appears that the shoe is on the other foot. Where is gloating CB now?
---------- ADS -----------
 
jjj
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 737
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:53 am

Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by jjj »

Rudder - your comments are accurate.

CB used to be held in high regards. It's been several years since he was re dubbed "Angry Grampa."

Yes the shoe is on the other foot and CB made out like a bandit after Uncle Gerry came to the rescue.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”