A "NEW" One List?

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Squid
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Squid »

I think it’s always easy for pilots to point out it’s always the company fault (see above) yet they have no communication from the union. Not sticking up for anyone here. There isn’t a lot of time in these types of negotiations and shit has to get done. Gotta laugh at those comments flyinghigh because that’s what you bring or brought to the table? Omg that’s hilarious you must be a sensation with the whole peer group?. JJj with all the years on negotiation and strategy experience you believe these guys are really looking way into the future? That’s hilarious too. The best thing you can do is make things temporary and work collaboratively in time like this.
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Madman
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Madman »

All ALPA Reps need to familiarize themselves with the Mission Statement.

B6017F03-526A-42FC-91AF-2CC799480314.jpeg
B6017F03-526A-42FC-91AF-2CC799480314.jpeg (212.41 KiB) Viewed 7218 times
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by hurtin'albertan »

flyinhigh wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:53 am (I worked across the table from this group for over a year).
In what capacity if you don't mind me asking?
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Blue42
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Blue42 »

It’s now Tuesday, last communication was Thursday afternoon stating negotiations are done! Promise of an “all pilot call”, zero communication since then!! Great job!
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cloak
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by cloak »

The radio silence shows disrespect for the 700 pilots who will be laid-off by week's end, and the other 1000 who will follow, not only to fail to mitigate lay-offs but also to fail to transparently, timely and professionally communicate the facts. Much less would ordinarily cause a recall.

Experience suggests that this union has had big talks but small actions. Landing below Swoop original pay in arbitration, one list votes mixed with compensation, the failure to mitigate any lay-offs, and lack of communication all show the MEC either doesn't trust the membership to make its own decisions through proper ratification or cannot build a working relationship with management to represent the pilots effectively.

The MEC seems to do enough "survey" to justify its actions, without actually sharing the results. The members are left wondering if not speculating and resorting to hearsay from "friends" to make themselves feel better! That's not democratic. Whatever their experience or intentions, lack of results is evident. Encore MEC in comparison has done a better job to advance the interests' of its members in spite of WestJet unknowns.

"My way or the highway" style of negotiations often times lands one on the highway! What the pilot group needs and deserves is a transparent and respectful representation that is all-inclusive, democratic and bears results, not angry slogans. If Swoop is going to be the arrowhead of recovery at WestJet; the pilot group needs to foster a cordial relationship to respond to that need while negotiating practical mutually agreeable terms.
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Transonic
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Transonic »

cloak wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:30 pm The radio silence shows disrespect for the 700 pilots who will be laid-off by week's end, and the other 1000 who will follow, not only to fail to mitigate lay-offs but also to fail to transparently, timely and professionally communicate the facts. Much less would ordinarily cause a recall.

Experience suggests that this union has had big talks but small actions. Landing below Swoop original pay in arbitration, one list votes mixed with compensation, the failure to mitigate any lay-offs, and lack of communication all show the MEC either doesn't trust the membership to make its own decisions through proper ratification or cannot build a working relationship with management to represent the pilots effectively.

The MEC seems to do enough "survey" to justify its actions, without actually sharing the results. The members are left wondering if not speculating and resorting to hearsay from "friends" to make themselves feel better! That's not democratic. Whatever their experience or intentions, lack of results is evident. Encore MEC in comparison has done a better job to advance the interests' of its members in spite of WestJet unknowns.

"My way or the highway" style of negotiations often times lands one on the highway! What the pilot group needs and deserves is a transparent and respectful representation that is all-inclusive, democratic and bears results, not angry slogans. If Swoop is going to be the arrowhead of recovery at WestJet; the pilot group needs to foster a cordial relationship to respond to that need while negotiating practical mutually agreeable terms.
Hi Cloak, you should talk to a rep.

The company sees opportunity in this crisis. Their bargaining positioning was on the lines of:
1. Gutting scope, larger Jets at Encore;
2. ESP removed until their discretion;
3. Compensation reductions;
4. Layoff pay concessions;
5. Recall out of seniority.

No wonder the negotiations failed.
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Blue42
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Blue42 »

Transonic wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:24 pm
cloak wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:30 pm The radio silence shows disrespect for the 700 pilots who will be laid-off by week's end, and the other 1000 who will follow, not only to fail to mitigate lay-offs but also to fail to transparently, timely and professionally communicate the facts. Much less would ordinarily cause a recall.

Experience suggests that this union has had big talks but small actions. Landing below Swoop original pay in arbitration, one list votes mixed with compensation, the failure to mitigate any lay-offs, and lack of communication all show the MEC either doesn't trust the membership to make its own decisions through proper ratification or cannot build a working relationship with management to represent the pilots effectively.

The MEC seems to do enough "survey" to justify its actions, without actually sharing the results. The members are left wondering if not speculating and resorting to hearsay from "friends" to make themselves feel better! That's not democratic. Whatever their experience or intentions, lack of results is evident. Encore MEC in comparison has done a better job to advance the interests' of its members in spite of WestJet unknowns.

"My way or the highway" style of negotiations often times lands one on the highway! What the pilot group needs and deserves is a transparent and respectful representation that is all-inclusive, democratic and bears results, not angry slogans. If Swoop is going to be the arrowhead of recovery at WestJet; the pilot group needs to foster a cordial relationship to respond to that need while negotiating practical mutually agreeable terms.
Hi Cloak, you should talk to a rep.

The company sees opportunity in this crisis. Their bargaining positioning was on the lines of:
1. Gutting scope, larger Jets at Encore;
2. ESP removed until their discretion;
3. Compensation reductions;
4. Layoff pay concessions;
5. Recall out of seniority.

No wonder the negotiations failed.
I agree that it’s no wonder negotiations ended, but it would nice if this was communicated. Guess it depends who you talk you, I’ve talked to reps and none of this info was divulged....
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by hurtin'albertan »

Blue42 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:03 pm
Transonic wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:24 pm
cloak wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:30 pm The radio silence shows disrespect for the 700 pilots who will be laid-off by week's end, and the other 1000 who will follow, not only to fail to mitigate lay-offs but also to fail to transparently, timely and professionally communicate the facts. Much less would ordinarily cause a recall.

Experience suggests that this union has had big talks but small actions. Landing below Swoop original pay in arbitration, one list votes mixed with compensation, the failure to mitigate any lay-offs, and lack of communication all show the MEC either doesn't trust the membership to make its own decisions through proper ratification or cannot build a working relationship with management to represent the pilots effectively.

The MEC seems to do enough "survey" to justify its actions, without actually sharing the results. The members are left wondering if not speculating and resorting to hearsay from "friends" to make themselves feel better! That's not democratic. Whatever their experience or intentions, lack of results is evident. Encore MEC in comparison has done a better job to advance the interests' of its members in spite of WestJet unknowns.

"My way or the highway" style of negotiations often times lands one on the highway! What the pilot group needs and deserves is a transparent and respectful representation that is all-inclusive, democratic and bears results, not angry slogans. If Swoop is going to be the arrowhead of recovery at WestJet; the pilot group needs to foster a cordial relationship to respond to that need while negotiating practical mutually agreeable terms.
Hi Cloak, you should talk to a rep.

The company sees opportunity in this crisis. Their bargaining positioning was on the lines of:
1. Gutting scope, larger Jets at Encore;
2. ESP removed until their discretion;
3. Compensation reductions;
4. Layoff pay concessions;
5. Recall out of seniority.

No wonder the negotiations failed.
I agree that it’s no wonder negotiations ended, but it would nice if this was communicated. Guess it depends who you talk you, I’ve talked to reps and none of this info was divulged....
While I agree it would have been nice to have this info divulged from official sources, perhaps the MEC were keeping their powder dry so as not to poison the well and give the company an opportunity to come to its senses over the weekend. If they put this info out officially it could have the effect of hampering the hopes of a "working relationship" to maybe restart talks?
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Squid
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Squid »

Blue42 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:03 pm
Transonic wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:24 pm
cloak wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:30 pm The radio silence shows disrespect for the 700 pilots who will be laid-off by week's end, and the other 1000 who will follow, not only to fail to mitigate lay-offs but also to fail to transparently, timely and professionally communicate the facts. Much less would ordinarily cause a recall.

Experience suggests that this union has had big talks but small actions. Landing below Swoop original pay in arbitration, one list votes mixed with compensation, the failure to mitigate any lay-offs, and lack of communication all show the MEC either doesn't trust the membership to make its own decisions through proper ratification or cannot build a working relationship with management to represent the pilots effectively.

The MEC seems to do enough "survey" to justify its actions, without actually sharing the results. The members are left wondering if not speculating and resorting to hearsay from "friends" to make themselves feel better! That's not democratic. Whatever their experience or intentions, lack of results is evident. Encore MEC in comparison has done a better job to advance the interests' of its members in spite of WestJet unknowns.

"My way or the highway" style of negotiations often times lands one on the highway! What the pilot group needs and deserves is a transparent and respectful representation that is all-inclusive, democratic and bears results, not angry slogans. If Swoop is going to be the arrowhead of recovery at WestJet; the pilot group needs to foster a cordial relationship to respond to that need while negotiating practical mutually agreeable terms.
Hi Cloak, you should talk to a rep.

The company sees opportunity in this crisis. Their bargaining positioning was on the lines of:
1. Gutting scope, larger Jets at Encore;
2. ESP removed until their discretion;
3. Compensation reductions;
4. Layoff pay concessions;
5. Recall out of seniority.

No wonder the negotiations failed.
I agree that it’s no wonder negotiations ended, but it would nice if this was communicated. Guess it depends who you talk you, I’ve talked to reps and none of this info was divulged....
Good and accurate take blue 42. They need to talk otherwise points 1 to 5 from transonic are just gossip and spin.
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Madman
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Madman »

hurtin'albertan wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:25 pm
Blue42 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:03 pm
Transonic wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:24 pm

Hi Cloak, you should talk to a rep.

The company sees opportunity in this crisis. Their bargaining positioning was on the lines of:
1. Gutting scope, larger Jets at Encore;
2. ESP removed until their discretion;
3. Compensation reductions;
4. Layoff pay concessions;
5. Recall out of seniority.

No wonder the negotiations failed.
I agree that it’s no wonder negotiations ended, but it would nice if this was communicated. Guess it depends who you talk you, I’ve talked to reps and none of this info was divulged....
While I agree it would have been nice to have this info divulged from official sources, perhaps the MEC were keeping their powder dry so as not to poison the well and give the company an opportunity to come to its senses over the weekend. If they put this info out officially it could have the effect of hampering the hopes of a "working relationship" to maybe restart talks?
Seriously. You think the MEC was granting the Company time to “come to its senses”. If this was the plan of our MEC, it’s the most foolish tactic I’ve heard yet...and again shows a new level of incompetence.
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Furloughed
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Furloughed »

Yes, to me it sounds like someone needed to come to their senses. Regardless, the NC whether they were in control of their senses or not, had an obligation to communicate the final offer of WJ Mgmt to the pilot group. I don't mean spill the confidential financial data and violate the NDA, I mean give us the final offer, whatever it was, and let us vote. To me a Union is about a collective voice and a democratic right to vote.

The NC didn't have to say that WJ is bleeding $50 Mil a day (Delta has stated publicly that is what they are bleeding), or anything of the sort. They could have just said that "as what most of you have read in the media, Canadian Airlines are facing devastating times, with loads down in the 95% range. The Company claims they can not honour the current CA and to try and mitigate the losses of ------- jobs (maybe 500 to 600) the final offer of WJ is this --------" They Company also says that in line with what is going on south of the border, we could be looking at 24 to 36 months for recalls as a best case scenario. The NC recommends against the offer, or recommends in favour of the offer. Whatever they wanted to put there. Then there could have been a clear vote. Are you in favour of the last presented offer? YES or NO? Pretty simple. And if there was several offeres in play, then list them all and put them to a vote. As it stands now, we don't even know what the results of the original survey were. Be honest, do any of you even remember the questions in the survey off the top of your head without going back through your email and looking?

Maybe ALPA Canada or USA could have chimed in as well and said what they forecast as a realistic recovery period if they disagreed with WJ assessment. How many times have the ALPA Cheerleaders praised ALPA and their resources? We keep hearing about the Legal and Financial and Negotiation Experts etc etc. Well, where the hell were all these experts during the "negotiation". And why didn't we hear from them. All we heard for our Millions in paid dues was the sound of.......Crickets!

I see the bid results have been finalized. Anyone from ALPA or our NC going to chime in now? We are still waiting to hear something. Just saying.

And as for my question yesterday, nobody has answered me yet. Is ALPA going to take the 1.98% in "dues" from our Emergency Wage subsidy? I would like an answer and I don't want a PM. Post it here for all of the rest of us dues paying members to see. If nobody else did the math, for every 4 weeks on CEWS x 1700 pilots, that = $114,039 per month in Dues to ALPA off of our Emergency Wage Supplement. Anyone else here feel like we may not be getting $114K worth of service or benefits every month? And that is not including the dues from the 600 pilots who are still working and paying full dues. Yeah, ALPA definitely isn't a business now is it?
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brooks
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by brooks »

I don't think the PTA was worth the paper it was printed on. Guys were saying if we don't vote yes the company will whipsaw the two pilot groups. Well they've done a pretty good job of doing that even with the one list. Bump downs who took Encore spots just took a pay cut and there is no guarantee that they will be back at ML anytime soon. You are operationally required to stay put until WJ has right sized the airline. Same with going to Swoop. I doubt they will train a guy on the Dash only to have them move back ML after 6 months. I get it people have to feed their families, but don't expect to be recalled back to the ML bargaining unit anytime soon.

Interesting if you try and book a seat after June 5, the YYC-YVR route looks like a normal schedule. WJ could be planning this to be short lived. As soon as our overly cautious government lift the travel bans I expect things to quickly get back to normal.

My thoughts.
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cloak
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by cloak »

Transonic wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:24 pm
Hi Cloak, you should talk to a rep.

The company sees opportunity in this crisis. Their bargaining positioning was on the lines of:
1. Gutting scope, larger Jets at Encore;
2. ESP removed until their discretion;
3. Compensation reductions;
4. Layoff pay concessions;
5. Recall out of seniority.

No wonder the negotiations failed.
You could be right, although it doesn't seem likely that after very similar MMG reductions and ESP deferrals with both bargaining units for April, later extending those arrangements with Encore to the end of year, then they would demand those things from WJ MEC?! Not very plausible. At any rate, the reps are duty-bound to share that info transparently with all those that entrusted them with representation, that's all.
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Bede
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Bede »

Transonic wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:24 pm The company sees opportunity in this crisis. Their bargaining positioning was on the lines of:
1. Gutting scope, larger Jets at Encore;
2. ESP removed until their discretion;
3. Compensation reductions;
4. Layoff pay concessions;
5. Recall out of seniority.
That's grossly exaggerated.
Furloughed wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:34 pmWe keep hearing about the Legal and Financial and Negotiation Experts etc etc. Well, where the hell were all these experts during the "negotiation".
At home working 14-20 hours/day (I'm not exaggerating) by video conference on your behalf while concurrently managing their children.
Furloughed wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:34 pm And why didn't we hear from them.
You did. Through your reps. Do you think it's a good idea for ALPA to publicly disclose the raw data that negotiating positions are based on?
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Maxpwr
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Maxpwr »

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Last edited by Maxpwr on Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Transonic
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Transonic »

Cloak,

I believe Mainline and Encore and not comparable due to layoff pay provisions/EI top up in the mainline CA.

Here’s some rough math/counting of the cost of a 75% EI top up on the 1000 June 1st layoffs.

I roughly assumed an average FO rate of $105 and 4 YOS.

June 1st layoff comprises of 460 CAs and 540 FOs.

Roughly 200 bumped down into Encore, 90 CAs and 110FOs.

So 370 CAs and 430 FOs laid off.

370 x $205 x 77.5hrs x 75% x 10 weeks = 19.8million

Minus EI @ 500 week, 1.9 million

Total CA layoff top up cost 17.9 million.

430 x $105 x 77.5hrs x 8 weeks = 5.2 million.
Minus EI @ 1.7 million.

Total FO layoff top up 3.5 million.

Total cost to WS 23 million.

Encore MOA 2 cost.

292 positions, 146 CA and 146 FO.

146 CA x $85 x 50hrs x 8 months = 6.2 million

146 FO x $50 x 50hrs x 8 months = 3.6 million.

Total cost of WN MOA2 9.8 million.


So EI top up alone may be 2x the labour pilot cost of Encore under MOA2! Therefore the negotiation with mainline is an entirely different animal.

I don’t think this is over. However I’m told that we will not be the party to initiate talks.

50-55hrs/month and deferred ESP would have pass however the company wasn’t even close to that.
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Squid
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Squid »

Transonic wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:00 am Cloak,

I believe Mainline and Encore and not comparable due to layoff pay provisions/EI top up in the mainline CA.

Here’s some rough math/counting of the cost of a 75% EI top up on the 1000 June 1st layoffs.

I roughly assumed an average FO rate of $105 and 4 YOS.

June 1st layoff comprises of 460 CAs and 540 FOs.

Roughly 200 bumped down into Encore, 90 CAs and 110FOs.

So 370 CAs and 430 FOs laid off.

370 x $205 x 77.5hrs x 75% x 10 weeks = 19.8million

Minus EI @ 500 week, 1.9 million

Total CA layoff top up cost 17.9 million.

430 x $105 x 77.5hrs x 8 weeks = 5.2 million.
Minus EI @ 1.7 million.

Total FO layoff top up 3.5 million.

Total cost to WS 23 million.

Encore MOA 2 cost.

292 positions, 146 CA and 146 FO.

146 CA x $85 x 50hrs x 8 months = 6.2 million

146 FO x $50 x 50hrs x 8 months = 3.6 million.

Total cost of WN MOA2 9.8 million.


So EI top up alone may be 2x the labour pilot cost of Encore under MOA2! Therefore the negotiation with mainline is an entirely different animal.

I don’t think this is over. However I’m told that we will not be the party to initiate talks.

50-55hrs/month and deferred ESP would have pass however the company wasn’t even close to that.
So transonic your negotiating committee guy just chimes in letting us know that your information is grossly exaggerated. So is that not reason enough to stop spreading the bs. While we have you Bede what was offered for mmg and max days worked? Curious why you didn’t follow our model and how many jobs would it have saved? Do you honestly expect 2000 plus pilots to call their reps?
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Transonic
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Transonic »

Bede wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:04 am
Transonic wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:24 pm The company sees opportunity in this crisis. Their bargaining positioning was on the lines of:
1. Gutting scope, larger Jets at Encore;
2. ESP removed until their discretion;
3. Compensation reductions;
4. Layoff pay concessions;
5. Recall out of seniority.
That's grossly exaggerated.
Thanks Bede for clearing that up.

And thank you for all the hard work!
Squid wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:10 am
So transonic your negotiating committee guy just chimes in letting us know that your information is grossly exaggerated. So is that not reason enough to stop spreading the bs. While we have you Bede what was offered for mmg and max days worked? Curious why you didn’t follow our model and how many jobs would it have saved? Do you honestly expect 2000 plus pilots to call their reps?
The point of my 2nd post was to illustrate the magnitude of mainline’s CA versus Encore MOA2. They are rough numbers however I wouldn’t classify it as BS.
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Blue42
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Blue42 »

Squid wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:10 am
Transonic wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:00 am Cloak,

I believe Mainline and Encore and not comparable due to layoff pay provisions/EI top up in the mainline CA.

Here’s some rough math/counting of the cost of a 75% EI top up on the 1000 June 1st layoffs.

I roughly assumed an average FO rate of $105 and 4 YOS.

June 1st layoff comprises of 460 CAs and 540 FOs.

Roughly 200 bumped down into Encore, 90 CAs and 110FOs.

So 370 CAs and 430 FOs laid off.

370 x $205 x 77.5hrs x 75% x 10 weeks = 19.8million

Minus EI @ 500 week, 1.9 million

Total CA layoff top up cost 17.9 million.

430 x $105 x 77.5hrs x 8 weeks = 5.2 million.
Minus EI @ 1.7 million.

Total FO layoff top up 3.5 million.

Total cost to WS 23 million.

Encore MOA 2 cost.

292 positions, 146 CA and 146 FO.

146 CA x $85 x 50hrs x 8 months = 6.2 million

146 FO x $50 x 50hrs x 8 months = 3.6 million.

Total cost of WN MOA2 9.8 million.


So EI top up alone may be 2x the labour pilot cost of Encore under MOA2! Therefore the negotiation with mainline is an entirely different animal.

I don’t think this is over. However I’m told that we will not be the party to initiate talks.

50-55hrs/month and deferred ESP would have pass however the company wasn’t even close to that.
So transonic your negotiating committee guy just chimes in letting us know that your information is grossly exaggerated. So is that not reason enough to stop spreading the bs. While we have you Bede what was offered for mmg and max days worked? Curious why you didn’t follow our model and how many jobs would it have saved? Do you honestly expect 2000 plus pilots to call their reps?
Or maybe, while we’re at it, a communication of some sort could be sent out to the membership? ....6 days since last comms.....700 members gone in 2 days!!!
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Impact »

Bede wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:04 am
Transonic wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:24 pm The company sees opportunity in this crisis. Their bargaining positioning was on the lines of:
1. Gutting scope, larger Jets at Encore;
2. ESP removed until their discretion;
3. Compensation reductions;
4. Layoff pay concessions;
5. Recall out of seniority.
That's grossly exaggerated.
Furloughed wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:34 pmWe keep hearing about the Legal and Financial and Negotiation Experts etc etc. Well, where the hell were all these experts during the "negotiation".
At home working 14-20 hours/day (I'm not exaggerating) by video conference on your behalf while concurrently managing their children.
Furloughed wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:34 pm And why didn't we hear from them.
You did. Through your reps. Do you think it's a good idea for ALPA to publicly disclose the raw data that negotiating positions are based on?
I don't pay 2% of my salary for some ALPA rep to blow sunshine up my a** about the "resources" they have at their disposal, and now try to guilt me into feeling sorry for them for having do their job. Working 14-20 hours a day? That one made me chuckle. :lol:
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