A "NEW" One List?

[ALPApolicy]

Sort of. The ability to bump was in the non-unionized WJPA mainline and Encore contracts from 2015. However, not included in those contracts was the very strong scope clause that now exists in the mainline ALPA contract. The contractual clauses issue that I have referred to (which AGAIN, provides really strong lay off protection for the mainline pilots... this is a good thing!) were not there in the WJPA contracts - there was no real scope and there wasn't lay-off protections. Now there is. The lay-off protections in the current ALPA contract is significantly stronger than in the WJPA contracts.

But here’s the thing. What was or wasn’t in the previous WJPA contract is irrelevant. We’re not here to vote on the WJPA contract.

While I actually agree with you that what was in the previous contract is irrelevant, my comment was a direct response to "George Taylor" who suggested, I think, that because the wording was in the previous WJPA contract it should/could be in a new LOA. I was suggesting why it was different.

We're not here to vote on the WJPA contract nor the previous LOA. The topic of this discussion was to try and figure out what exactly mainline pilots who voted no want to see in an LOA that will make them vote yes. Some want bumping - that's fair. I've outlined why I don't think that that may be an unobtainable negotiating position. But, if there are other alternatives I'm interested to hear.

We were to vote on the tri-party One List LOA. Nobody’s saying we don’t have some protections from lay-off built into the new contract, minimal as they may be. Yes I said minimal because I’ve seen much better lay-off protections in CA’s. It’s never been about the lay-off protections, it was about what we could do AFTER all those protections had been utilized and our position at mainline no longer existed. Bumping down in order of seniority on the exact list you wish to live on.

Aw, Twenty Dollars?! I wanted a peanut!

In my opinion, as a May 4, 2015 hire you have some incredible lay-off protection outlined in the current mainline scope clause (not in the lay-off section). You have this whether an LOA gets passed or not. The company cannot lay you off without renegotiating the CBA. I've outlined my reasons why ad nauseam. If I were in your position I'd honestly rather have that protection than the ability to bump. Arguably, if the company gets to the point where you're facing a lay-off there won't be anyone's position to bump into.

Because guess what...doing so would inherently become a lay-off prevention tool due to training costs for WestJet. See how that works? Secondly if the content of the LOA was in fact so good then I dare say we wouldn’t be having this conversation. It’s as simple as that. People don’t need lawyerly dissection of a document that makes them simply feel cheated. If it feels wrong then it feels wrong and they voted as such. Now the powers that be have very quickly felt the wrath of the group for their inadequate LOA and are working on new solutions. That’s how the system works. Vote for what’s in front of you.

You can feel however you want to feel. My "lawyerly dissection" will tell you what the contract (a document written by union and company lawyers) actually says.

I mean if your feeling is even though the company has to literally ask to renegotiate the CBA in order to lay you off and you still feel cheated, there's not much I can say to that. Also, if your feeling is that the only way you'll vote for a new LOA is that if, in addition to the contractual scope clause prohibiting layoffs for those hired May 2015 and earlier AND also prohibiting lay-offs of those after that date if as a result of business with Encore or any other commercial relationship you need the company to agree to something more, that's fine. If all the no voters feel that way too, that's fine. But it does give me a good sense of the actual chance of success of any future LOAs.

The old LOA is dead. Long live the LOA!

So is bumping the threshold? (As I've said, I'm not arguing against bumping. In fact my feelings towards bumping are very positive). But I've outlined my concerns with having that as a negotiating position. Is there any other positions that would make you (presumably a no voter), decide to vote yes if included in a new LOA?

This is exactly why I questioned the timing of the Encore vote and One List vote, if it were me at Encore, I would’ve voted no the the contract until the results of the one list vote or as an MEC member I would’ve delayed the vote for the same reason. I believe had the one list results been known prior to the contract vote, it would have turned out different.
Please excuse the indifference, Encore pilots have no one to blame but themselves for how it turns out, they had some leverage if they voted no until the seniority was resolved, now it’s completely up to the mainline pilots how this goes.
I’m also surprised they didn’t have a 17 year deal shoved it front of them, given according to yycjetdriver, us bad Jazz pilots set a huge precedent and everyone will have to sign extremely long term deals(paraphrasing, of course) guess he was wrong, shocker!

mbav8r,

If only it were that easy. Due to a number of reasons I've outlined previously, simply voting No on a TA while waiting for the One List LOA to be signed wasn't an option. For a number of reasons, it did need to be the second step in the process.

I don't condone non-Jazz pilots from playing armchair quarterback on the Jazz TA. Respectfully, if you don't completely understand the situation suggesting that "Encore pilots have no one to blame but themselves" is a misguided statement.

It’s really interesting for me to examine the arguments FOR the PTA/ONE LIST in light of the traumatic situation we find ourselves in.

According to our own legal beagle JBI, we mainline pilots of pre-2015 DOH were actually were better protected in the current situation if we had not signed the PTA and just kept the ALPA CBA as it was. As he stated:

You can feel however you want to feel. My "lawyerly dissection" will tell you what the contract (a document written by union and company lawyers) actually says.

I mean if your feeling is even though the company has to literally ask to renegotiate the CBA in order to lay you off and you still feel cheated, there's not much I can say to that. Also, if your feeling is that the only way you'll vote for a new LOA is that if, in addition to the contractual scope clause prohibiting layoffs for those hired May 2015 and earlier AND also prohibiting lay-offs of those after that date if as a result of business with Encore...”

In hindsight, maybe he’s right. Don’t know myself as I see legalese and my eyes glaze over.

[JBI]

So to be clear, on a week when 1600 or so of our fellow pilots and literally almost 10,000 of our colleagues are getting lay-off and furlough notices because of an international pandemic that is decimating the aviation industry, you are digging up old posts of mine with an anonymous internet account to try and refute an argument that ended up being moot as a one way bumping clause was added to the October PTA?

As I've said, if you want to e-mail me with your real identity and arrange to chat I'm happy to discuss. Until then, I hope you and your family stay well.

[Gear Jerker]

I say this with an open mind.

I really don't understand why prioritizing layoff mitigation, and doing as all the others have done and negotiating temporary (attached to an MOA with an expiry) pay concessions in order to save some jobs is not in the interest of WestJet pilots. I'd be happy to discuss via PM or phone if someone is not comfortable posting certain information.

In my view, we're in the midst of a once in a lifetime (hopefully) disruption which has had, and will continue to have devastating effects on the global economy, and is absolutely decimating airlines. My understanding is that 5-10% of normal revenue is more or less an industry standard right now. To me, a majority of the group eating sh*t temporarily is more fair, appropriate and humane during these times than having a proportionally very small group continue to work under the normal CA while the vast majority will soon make $2000 per month until they are recalled.

Help me understand, guys.

[sstaurus]

So to be clear, on a week when 1600 or so of our fellow pilots and literally almost 10,000 of our colleagues are getting lay-off and furlough notices because of an international pandemic that is decimating the aviation industry, you are digging up old posts of mine with an anonymous internet account to try and refute an argument that ended up being moot as a one way bumping clause was added to the October PTA?

As I've said, if you want to e-mail me with your real identity and arrange to chat I'm happy to discuss. Until then, I hope you and your family stay well.

Don’t take it personally...capt Wingsuit is bored and obviously back with his alter-egos

[Maxpwr]

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[sstaurus]

Well those who were upset about Encore making concessions, must be right happy now that the mainline MEC wasn't able to save a single job. Those top ~500 guys can now continue making 150-200K +ESP while the rest get laid off.

[cloak]

Well those who were upset about Encore making concessions, must be right happy now that the mainline MEC wasn't able to save a single job. Those top ~500 guys can now continue making 150-200K +ESP while the rest get laid off.

Your disappointment is understandable. This is an unprecedented challenge which requires unprecedented new approaches. It also presents an opportunity to rebuild trust and improve relationships through cooperation and transparency. Most carriers around the globe have either stopped flying altogether or reduced hours substantially for a number of months.

The company must have offered something, either similar to April or similar to Encore, lower, higher...whatever it was, it is best to put that information to the membership and let them decide by ratifying it. I believe ALPA represented U.S carriers did just that fairly quickly online.

The company should also offer more appealing early retirement packages. This is to their advantage too as it reduces payroll at the top. It also creates new opportunities and allows these folks to take their well deserved retirements, so it's a win-win.

[mbav8r]

Well those who were upset about Encore making concessions, must be right happy now that the mainline MEC wasn't able to save a single job. Those top ~500 guys can now continue making 150-200K +ESP while the rest get laid off.

Your disappointment is understandable. This is an unprecedented challenge which requires unprecedented new approaches. It also presents an opportunity to rebuild trust and improve relationships through cooperation and transparency. Most carriers around the globe have either stopped flying altogether or reduced hours substantially for a number of months.

The company must have offered something, either similar to April or similar to Encore, lower, higher...whatever it was, it is best to put that information to the membership and let them decide by ratifying it. I believe ALPA represented U.S carriers did just that fairly quickly online.

The company should also offer more appealing early retirement packages. This is to their advantage too as it reduces payroll at the top. It also creates new opportunities and allows these folks to take their well deserved retirements, so it's a win-win.

Cloak, you were a very vocal opponent to the one list, my question, did you take a lay-off or avail yourself to a spot at Encore?

[cloak]

Apparently certain unions would not allow the pilots to make accommodations by accepting reduced hours (for a period), and hopefully this is not the case here where ALPA for instance would not allow the MEC to entertain certain proposals.

[Bede]

Well those who were upset about Encore making concessions, must be right happy now that the mainline MEC wasn't able to save a single job. Those top ~500 guys can now continue making 150-200K +ESP while the rest get laid off.

Actually, the MEC was capable of saving 1000 pilot jobs. However, the MEC is responsive to the membership and the membership clearly did not want to make concessions and therefore there was no deal. You can't "Hold the Line" while at the same time caving to the company's demands to save jobs.

[cloak]

Actually, the MEC was capable of saving 1000 pilot jobs. However, the MEC is responsive to the membership and the membership clearly did not want to make concessions and therefore there was no deal. You can't "Hold the Line" while at the same time caving to the company's demands to save jobs.

Are pilots around the world "caving in" to agree to reduced blocks under the circumstances, including ALPA represented U.S carriers?
While a survey may indicate a preference, although not sure what the participation rate or results were, perhaps they should not be taken as "decisions" and with timely and transparent communications such important matters can be put to a vote? I believe ALPA did that in the states.

[Maxpwr]

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[Blue42]

So to be clear, on a week when 1600 or so of our fellow pilots and literally almost 10,000 of our colleagues are getting lay-off and furlough notices because of an international pandemic that is decimating the aviation industry, you are digging up old posts of mine with an anonymous internet account to try and refute an argument that ended up being moot as a one way bumping clause was added to the October PTA?

As I've said, if you want to e-mail me with your real identity and arrange to chat I'm happy to discuss. Until then, I hope you and your family stay well.

Don’t take it personally...capt Wingsuit is bored and obviously back with his alter-egos

The same guy that said he’ll have no problem working as much overtime as he can while 1700 coworkers are laid off......

[hurtin'albertan]

Apparently certain unions would not allow the pilots to make accommodations by accepting reduced hours (for a period), and hopefully this is not the case here where ALPA for instance would not allow the MEC to entertain certain proposals.

How then could ALPA have "allowed" Encore to accept their deal? Same union...

The same guy that said he’ll have no problem working as much overtime as he can while 1700 coworkers are laid off......

Yeah. Awesome. A few other guys saying this as well. Don't you (they) realize that this not only hurts the recall chances and timelines of those laid off, but it also sewers your chances at getting back to your old base, left seat, etc.

[jjj]

Well those who were upset about Encore making concessions, must be right happy now that the mainline MEC wasn't able to save a single job. Those top ~500 guys can now continue making 150-200K +ESP while the rest get laid off.

Correct that the WS MEC did not reduce the number of lay offs. What they did do was work full time on lay off mitigation until yesterday I believe. What we don't know is what they were up against. I can just imagine what the company wanted.

When this all turns around - pilots need good jobs to go back to. Laid off Encore pilots need the same light at the end of the tunnel that was there before.

I stand by my assertion that the Encore concessions were a blunder. Most of the pilots they were looking out for have been flushed. The bump down pilots are not happy with MOA 2.

The Pilot Transfer Agreement remains in jeopardy and I assure you it is not a retribution.

I stand by the WS MEC.

[mbav8r]

Well those who were upset about Encore making concessions, must be right happy now that the mainline MEC wasn't able to save a single job. Those top ~500 guys can now continue making 150-200K +ESP while the rest get laid off.

Your disappointment is understandable. This is an unprecedented challenge which requires unprecedented new approaches. It also presents an opportunity to rebuild trust and improve relationships through cooperation and transparency. Most carriers around the globe have either stopped flying altogether or reduced hours substantially for a number of months.

The company must have offered something, either similar to April or similar to Encore, lower, higher...whatever it was, it is best to put that information to the membership and let them decide by ratifying it. I believe ALPA represented U.S carriers did just that fairly quickly online.

The company should also offer more appealing early retirement packages. This is to their advantage too as it reduces payroll at the top. It also creates new opportunities and allows these folks to take their well deserved retirements, so it's a win-win.

Cloak, you were a very vocal opponent to the one list, my question, did you take a lay-off or avail yourself to a spot at Encore?

You know cloak, no answer is still an answer, just saying.

[sstaurus]

Well those who were upset about Encore making concessions, must be right happy now that the mainline MEC wasn't able to save a single job. Those top ~500 guys can now continue making 150-200K +ESP while the rest get laid off.

Actually, the MEC was capable of saving 1000 pilot jobs. However, the MEC is responsive to the membership and the membership clearly did not want to make concessions and therefore there was no deal. You can't "Hold the Line" while at the same time caving to the company's demands to save jobs.

I keep hearing this from a select few, but have yet to see any evidence that that is what the majority wished for. Obviously those at the top would like to continue making full contract, but I would bet that the majority of the rest would have gone with even a continuation of 55hrs or something similar. Share the pain and all that... I'm highly doubtful there were that many who wanted to fall on their sword and get laid off just to "hold the line". Sunset clauses or economic indicators can be used to restore the contract when the time comes like over at AC. Anyway, I guess we can only hope for the future at this point and move on.

[doiwannabeapilot]

Company must have offered a huge cut including lower hours along with no ESP. So ALPA at the behest of the membership told them to go @#$! themselves. Lots of high fives going around right now. Well done. Now to focus on making sure WJ adheres to the contract for the huge layoffs they set into motion. Something about making a bed...lying in it....I dunno.

yeah, stick it to the man !
I hope they run out of cash and go billions into the red !
that'll be AWESOME ! Great success! Super high fives!

[doiwannabeapilot]

Why should the current guys on property care about the PTA anymore? Doesn't really affect them that much anymore.
In true piloty fashion; who cares about everyone else.

Well those who were upset about Encore making concessions, must be right happy now that the mainline MEC wasn't able to save a single job. Those top ~500 guys can now continue making 150-200K +ESP while the rest get laid off.

Correct that the WS MEC did not reduce the number of lay offs. What they did do was work full time on lay off mitigation until yesterday I believe. What we don't know is what they were up against. I can just imagine what the company wanted.

When this all turns around - pilots need good jobs to go back to. Laid off Encore pilots need the same light at the end of the tunnel that was there before.

I stand by my assertion that the Encore concessions were a blunder. Most of the pilots they were looking out for have been flushed. The bump down pilots are not happy with MOA 2.

The Pilot Transfer Agreement remains in jeopardy and I assure you it is not a retribution.

I stand by the WS MEC.

[cloak]

Using clichés like "hold the line", "stick it to them" are not negotiation and don't work at all under the current environment and are to the detriment of the pilot group because one supposedly "holds the line" against foreign enemies entering one's home; these are discussions and negotiations among parties very interested in the longevity and long term success of the company. In this world pandemic all airlines are cutting hours and working to mitigate the impact, which helps colleagues to stay on, saves the company money and helps with the recovery.

Accepting temporary lower blocks, similar to April arrangements, and also deferring (not cancel) ESPs are some of the "temporary" measures to cope with substantially reduced demand while also minimizing layoffs with automatic triggers whereby laid off pilots will be recalled and blocks restored if certain hours of OT are used. Maybe even try to negotiate other deferred income, in addition to ESP, when the company is doing well again. Regardless of the past, this is a good opportunity to foster new cooperation and work constructively for the common good.