A "NEW" One List?

[cloak]

Question, if the WAWCON at Swoop is so bad did anyone from mainline take the seats from the results of the PSB? Just wondering.....

Apparently quite a few, including association members that fought Swoop, which is ironic and shows the realities of life are not always idealistic!

[cloak]

ALPA... Why is anybody shocked? They did what they always do. Protect the upper seniority pilots and sell out the junior ones. This is just a very extreme example. 1700 extreme which in my opinion is probably at least 600 more than it should have been considering the range initially presented was 550 - 1700 layoffs; you would think there had to be a middle ground. ... I'm not sure, but you may still receive your ALPA magazine. Pretty sure you will get the USA Propaganda as that's where most of our dues go anyway. And I am sure we will still get the ALPA Daily email at 10am like clockwork though, I know that's the highlight of my day. I also look forward to the MEC email but for some reason during the "negotiations" there really wasn't too many of those. Guess they must have been too busy.

Your disappointment is understandable. They say a union is as good as the people that are on it. Likely there needs to be more diversity among the association members from across the membership to truly represent all, that is if ALPA survives this rout! At any rate, such important decisions must be made through majority vote and proper ratification. Again, that was done in the states and there is no reason it can't be done at WestJet.

[Madman]

ALPA... Why is anybody shocked? They did what they always do. Protect the upper seniority pilots and sell out the junior ones. This is just a very extreme example. 1700 extreme which in my opinion is probably at least 600 more than it should have been considering the range initially presented was 550 - 1700 layoffs; you would think there had to be a middle ground. ... I'm not sure, but you may still receive your ALPA magazine. Pretty sure you will get the USA Propaganda as that's where most of our dues go anyway. And I am sure we will still get the ALPA Daily email at 10am like clockwork though, I know that's the highlight of my day. I also look forward to the MEC email but for some reason during the "negotiations" there really wasn't too many of those. Guess they must have been too busy.

Your disappointment is understandable. They say a union is as good as the people that are on it. Likely there needs to be more diversity among the association members from across the membership to truly represent all, that is if ALPA survives this rout! At any rate, such important decisions must be made through majority vote and proper ratification. Again, that was done in the states and there is no reason it can't be done at WestJet.

Exactly.
ALPA is a US of A born association, and works really hard for our US members, but not so much for us Canadians. Why?

[Dyna]

It has nothing to do with ALPA, it’s up to the entire pilot group to pull in the same direction in order makes gains. I’ve heard so many people say they wished we were with CUPE, or that JM, or Onex would swoop in (no pun intended) and save us. It doesn’t matter what union/association name is on the door, it’s up us. It’s not like ALPA is sitting in Herndon with the ability to fix this relationship with WJ and are simply ignoring us because we’re Canadian. JM said it at wing night, he can’t fix this. We have to do that ourselves.

The sooner the anti-ALPA crowd get over the fact that we certified, the better. ALPA is here. If anyone doesn’t like the direction we are headed, get involved and work for positive changes. Volunteer, join a committee, throw your name in for LEC/MEC positions. WJ loves a fractured pilot group, we need to stop feeding it.

I’m not an ALPA fanboy by any means. I’m certainly not happy with comms from our reps through this PSB, or how they have allowed the company to behave without any pushback. Fly it and grieve it, call your manager and fight it out yourself, etc. That’s not a strong stance and allows the company to continue to wipe their behinds with our CA. That’s not because of ALPA, it’s because WJ pilots have allowed it to happen. We need stronger leadership and a united pilot group with a backbone.

Madman, I realize my last post goes against what I wrote above. I apologize for making it personal. I hope we can all come together and repair this fractured pilot group. Things will never improve otherwise.

[fish4life]

What is the seniority of the negotiators at WestJet? Did they keep their jobs?

[cjet]

What is the seniority of the negotiators at WestJet? Did they keep their jobs?

2 will be laid off June 1 and another will bump down into Encore as a Capt. The negotiators had a mandate of no concessions from the membership.

Cjet

[yvrpilot82]

The salt in the wound is any Swoop pilot will have preference over WestJet spots before a WestJet pilot who decided to remain furloughed instead of taking a pink tie. Seniority takes second place to a spot as an "active pilot" it would seem.

[Commonwealth]

The salt in the wound is any Swoop pilot will have preference over WestJet spots before a WestJet pilot who decided to remain furloughed instead of taking a pink tie. Seniority takes second place to a spot as an "active pilot" it would seem.

I do not follow this logic. All current Swoop pilots are to be furloughed May 1 and June 1. When this happens are they all not considered “inactive?” How do Swoop pilots get preference for WestJet positions out of seniority?

[CaptainHaddock]

I think the short term concession MMG of 55 or even 50 would have been given for a longer MOA pretty easily, I could see differing the ESP until certain metrics are met by the company. But waiving the ESP (basically our retirement savings) for a longer term tied to any relaxing of scope on Swoop or at Encore is a bridge to far. This is an unprecedented blow to our industry and the economies of the world, and the majority of us are willing to cut back, the 50-55MMG and differing our ESP is already a 40+% cost cut. That would fly I am guessing, but add on top of that the expansion of the Swoop WAWCON and your just cementing in those cuts for ever. The company could have easily mitigated layoff with just those two items-but I am guessing they wanted to tie other items to it to change the contract. The fact that WJ continues to pour money down the Swoop hole just proves that they are dead set on resetting our WAWCON with it. Why else run two 737 domestic airlines on top of each other when you have a 95% drop in capacity.

[Bede]

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[Bede]

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[cloak]

I think the short term concession MMG of 55 or even 50 would have been given for a longer MOA pretty easily, I could see differing the ESP until certain metrics are met by the company....

Under the circumstances likely most agree, so the question remains why the union has not communicated the offer? The main reasons for a "union" were transparency and inclusivity (in decision-making), neither of which are being done with this union. What is the difference if instead of the company they decide what's best! The 1700 laid-off pilots deserve to know the offer, as the pilot group deserve a chance to vote.

[Maxpwr]

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[cloak]

We didn’t see the offer because it was laughable. The NC sees it, laughs, then counters. At the end of the day the offer might have moved from laughable to merely insulting. Talks are over now as they should be. And yes the NC is getting praise for listening to the pilot group and not giving away the farm. If a deal is to be made then it has to be reasonable. The pilots alone should bear the entire cost of this situation.

Why do you say "the pilots alone should bear the cost of this situation"?
And If you haven't seen the offer, how do you know it was laughable?
Maybe the pilot group should decide through a vote on whether the offer was laughable, insulting or other variations?!

[Squid]

I think the short term concession MMG of 55 or even 50 would have been given for a longer MOA pretty easily, I could see differing the ESP until certain metrics are met by the company....

Under the circumstances likely most agree, so the question remains why the union has not communicated the offer? The main reasons for a "union" were transparency and inclusivity (in decision-making), neither of which are being done with this union. What is the difference if instead of the company they decide what's best! The 1700 laid-off pilots deserve to know the offer, as the pilot group deserve a chance to vote.

We didn’t see the offer because it was laughable. The NC sees it, laughs, then counters. At the end of the day the offer might have moved from laughable to merely insulting. Talks are over now as they should be. And yes the NC is getting praise for listening to the pilot group and not giving away the farm. If a deal is to be made then it has to be reasonable. The pilots alone should bear the entire cost of this situation.

My brother was talking to the NC guy from YQT. He was telling him they didn’t want to accept the reduced mmg with a reduced work month in days. Apparently would have saved a pile of jobs is my guess just like it did for us. Then the LEC really has no choice but to support it I guess. Would be a good question to ask for all to hear the real answer and not this way. Not really fair that you don’t hear a peep as to the real why. Your guys. Your inexperienced negot committee.

[Furloughed]

Nobody saw the results of the one and only survey. And in my opinion the survey should have had more options and/or a comment section.

I don't think anybody really thought there would be 1700 actual layoffs which is exactly what happened.

I don't think anyone thought "hold the line" or whatever juvenile slogan they were pushing before this harsh reality set in (I don't think it truly has set in yet for a lot of people) meant 1700 people wondering how to pay the mortgage in 8 to 12 months, while the top few hundred keep their full salaries, and 20% ESPP.

I do think that there should have been a lot more communication during this process while still respecting the NDA I am sure they all had to sign.

I also think the last and final offer of the Company should have gone to a vote of the entire membership. Mgmt and the NC would have had to agree to the wording of the release, but at least the NC would have had a clear mandate to accept or reject based on facts. Then if 1700 people were still laid off, so be it, but everyone would have had a final say in their destiny.

And people are seriously patting the NC on the back for what they accomplished? Winding up with the absolute worst case scenario possible for the majority of the Membership?

And does anyone want to confirm that we will still be paying Alpa dues on the CEWS? I mean the Government is willing to forgive the Company from paying the employer portion of CPP & EI as this isn't actual "earnings". Is ALPA going to throw us a tiny 2% bone and waive their dues on CEWS (E stands for Emergency, and S for Subsidy). My guess is NO, I mean they did accomplish so much for us in this process, but one can hope. If this CEWS gets extended to 20 weeks, that is $335.41 per pilot in ALPA dues we will be paying off of our Emergency Wage Subsidy. That's a car payment or a couple weeks groceries for some of us. I can't wait to see the answer to this.

[Mrbobmarly111]

I've worked at 2 ALPA companies and they are the absolute worst (westjet wasn't one of them btw). And long story short Mother Alpa is nowhere to be seen. I am not going to go into all the many reasons I have for truly hating them. But people should start opening their eyes. When every ALPA company has its members saying the same thing "its not alpa its the representation..." well screw it. Keep save help your neighbors and for the love of god. Tell your friends to vote no next time alpa comes selling snake oil.

[hurtin'albertan]

My brother was talking to the NC guy from YQT. He was telling him they didn’t want to accept the reduced mmg with a reduced work month in days. Apparently would have saved a pile of jobs is my guess just like it did for us. Then the LEC really has no choice but to support it I guess. Would be a good question to ask for all to hear the real answer and not this way. Not really fair that you don’t hear a peep as to the real why. Your guys. Your inexperienced negot committee.

Sorry "they" the company or "they" the NC and MEC? Cause I'd take a lower MMG and less days on the hook that they could sked me for for the summer if it meant I and more guys kept our jobs and more guys kept their seats.

But that's just me.

But fwiw i heard "they" the company also wanted to basically erase the scope section and recall into the pink suckhole, which other posters have also heard. Not a stretch to wonder why since "they" the company have been talking up swoop every Wednesday at 2pm...

So maybe we should ask for the straight goods from our reps?

[Madman]

I think the short term concession MMG of 55 or even 50 would have been given for a longer MOA pretty easily, I could see differing the ESP until certain metrics are met by the company....

Under the circumstances likely most agree, so the question remains why the union has not communicated the offer? The main reasons for a "union" were transparency and inclusivity (in decision-making), neither of which are being done with this union. What is the difference if instead of the company they decide what's best! The 1700 laid-off pilots deserve to know the offer, as the pilot group deserve a chance to vote.

Absolutely....I totally agree. Where’s the transparency?

[Squid]

“They” meaning your negotiating committee. The NC guys with years of experience? Sorry. I know sensitive times. Guess you won’t know until the questions are asked but that would be a great question to ask on what the minimum guarantee proposal(s) was. Really sad to hear none of this came back to the group. My napkin math probably saved you guys at least 750 -900 spots. Just a guess. How good is that when u say hurtin Albertan that “you heard” when you work there.