ONEX plans

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Fanblade
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by Fanblade » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:29 am

cloak wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:58 am

On your first paragraph, how was it then in 1999, to fend off the Onex bid, Air Canada secured financing from United and Lufthansa, were they within the limit?
This comment tells me you don’t understand the issue.

The foreign ownership rules are about control. Who owns and controls the airline. Not about where loans or financing comes from. The question being asked is simply this. If Onex owns and controls WJ, what mechanism is in place to ensure Onex stays Canadian controlled? Since proper mechanisms must be in place to ensure WJ remains Canadian controlled, what are they? None of this will be difficult to fix for Onex if it’s needed. Much of the question revolves around Onex’s current voting structure and what happens after leadership succession.
cloak wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:58 am
As for your second paragraph, not sure about restrictions, but I expect to see conditions and concessions required to allow the AC/TS merger to pass. Among others, notable would be re-examining LHR slots, other EU routes rights and perhaps requirement to reduce capacity for a number of years to allow new entrants establish themselves, Aeroplan membership, and T3 gates at YYZ will likely have to be surrendered as AC consolidates operations.
Really? That sounds more like a wish list.

Competition on the LHR route won’t change one iota after a TS/AC merger as TS doesn’t go there. Perhaps AC should give up slots in PVG as well with that kind of thinking. Maybe DBX? How about LGA?

Competition not affected = Competition Bureau no care.

LGW still has competition from.........um, what’s that airlines name? ........um. Oh yeah. WestJet. In fact the level of competition will go exactly back to where it was prior to WJ’s entry.

AC won’t want to split its operation to T3. They will be looking to negotiate their way out.

TS simply isn’t large enough to degrade competition except on specific routes out of Quebec to/from France and some sun destinations. That is where the focus will be.
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cloak
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by cloak » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:12 am

Fanblade wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:29 am
...TS simply isn’t large enough to degrade competition except on specific routes out of Quebec to/from France and some sun destinations. That is where the focus will be.
Your assertions are not founded in facts. Transat controls as much capacity to Sun as Air Canada which is about 25%. So their merger puts both WestJet and Sunwing at a disadvantage and likely there will be requirement for divesture of routes and capacity.

Likewise to the EU, Transat controls over 20% capacity (little less than half of AC), so combined they will have a very dominant position to squeeze out competition. This again requires divesture of routes, assets and capacity to reduce dominance and provide competition and choice. Although no other Canadian carrier is currently allowed to serve LHR, it's not by design, rather a left over of crown corporation days of AC and buying out competition. As the market will be different after the merger, all routes, including LHR, should and likely will be under review. There is precedence for this where in the U.S American was forced to concede slots at both Reagan and LaGuardia. Before an unbiased Bureau, the case can easily be made for the same in this merger.
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Fanblade
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by Fanblade » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:45 am

cloak wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:12 am
Fanblade wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:29 am
...TS simply isn’t large enough to degrade competition except on specific routes out of Quebec to/from France and some sun destinations. That is where the focus will be.
Your assertions are not founded in facts. Transat controls as much capacity to Sun as Air Canada which is about 25%. So their merger puts both WestJet and Sunwing at a disadvantage and likely there will be requirement for divesture of routes and capacity.
Actually the Transat/AC merger will leave AC with 100% of the capacity on some routes out of Quebec to France and Sun destinations. Yes those routes will be looked at.
cloak wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:12 am
Likewise to the EU, Transat controls over 20% capacity (little less than half of AC), so combined they will have a very dominant position to squeeze out competition. This again requires divesture of routes, assets and capacity to reduce dominance and provide competition and choice.
Are you kidding?????? The amount of competition over the Atlantic is fierce. AC controls about 12% of it. US carriers routinely target Canadians through their hubs to the EU. AC targets Americans in the same way. KlM same. BA same. Air France the same. To suggest AC is a dominant player on the Atlantic is ridiculous. You seem to be focused on Canadian competition in isolation, with regard to international routes. That is illogical. There doesn’t need to be 2 Canadian carriers on a route for adequate competition and consumer protection. Actually there doesn’t need to be any Canadian carriers to have adequate competition.
cloak wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:12 am
There is precedence for this where in the U.S American was forced to concede slots at both Reagan and LaGuardia. Before an unbiased Bureau, the case can easily be made for the same in this merger.
The US Airways/American merger led to almost total dominance in DCA and LGA. I will repeat that for you. The merger led to dominance at specific airports. The competition Bureau didn’t tell American they had to give up slots in MIA because of their dominant position in DCA/LGA. They focused solely on the airports and routes impacted by the merge.

I expect the Competition Bureau to do the same here. Identify Routes/airports where Competition has been reduced as a result of the merger before them. LHR is not an airport impacted in any way shape or form by this merger. It is simply twisted logic and wishful thinking on your part.
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by privateer » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:34 pm

I wonder if the plan is to buy/move some Q400s to Pacific Coastal?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... tj-460936/
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by JBI » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:10 am

privateer wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:34 pm
I wonder if the plan is to buy/move some Q400s to Pacific Coastal?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... tj-460936/
No, not the plan
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by x-wind » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:33 pm

Does Midco have any other businesses or was it created just to own Westjet.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:46 pm

privateer wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:34 pm
I wonder if the plan is to buy/move some Q400s to Pacific Coastal?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... tj-460936/
PasCo just bought some Q classics... but that's separate from WEN.
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by kiaszceski » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:57 pm

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:46 pm
privateer wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:34 pm
I wonder if the plan is to buy/move some Q400s to Pacific Coastal?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... tj-460936/
PasCo just bought some Q classics... but that's separate from WEN.
I’m sure we’ll soon find out Pasco will have a CPA with Westjet/Encore and they will be flowing to Encore after 1500hrs...
Thus allowing more Enxore FO to the left seat and Capt to flow to mainline! :mrgreen:

Yeah yeah I know I am living in Disney world :smt040
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by JBI » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:52 pm

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:46 pm

PasCo just bought some Q classics... but that's separate from WEN.
No, they have not.
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by '97 Tercel » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:53 pm

If it's posted on the intranet then it's real
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by x-wind » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:29 pm

Does Midco have any other businesses or was it created just to own Westjet?
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by johnkruk » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:09 pm

Swoop doing work for Sunwing ? Is this step one in the exit for Swoop ???
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by cloak » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:00 am

Think big picture and the era of consolidation that we're in! As WestJet transforms into a full service global carrier with joint ventures and alliances, Swoop is needed to protect the rear, diversify its service and really serve a different market segment. As WestJet grows, so will Swoop.
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Last edited by cloak on Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ONEX plans

Post by cloak » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:00 am

Sorry, DP.
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by CaptainHaddock » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:52 pm

Fingers crossed Sunwing buys Swoop.
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cloak
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by cloak » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:05 am

CaptainHaddock wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:52 pm
Fingers crossed Sunwing buys Swoop.
How's this different from WestJet keeping it separate which was the original plan?!! :?
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by CaptainHaddock » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:18 am

Because it removes Swoop from the WJ group, it is an arbitrated anchor in our agreement and point of division in our group. Not by pilot group making, but certainly created by management. The fact that there are hundreds pilots eligible to bid into Swoop from WJ/Encore and they are advertising here on Avcanada banners, and over seas at recruiter presentations just to fill those seats shows the discord it has sown.
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cloak
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by cloak » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:13 pm

CaptainHaddock wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:18 am
Because it removes Swoop from the WJ group, it is an arbitrated anchor in our agreement and point of division in our group. Not by pilot group making, but certainly created by management. The fact that there are hundreds pilots eligible to bid into Swoop from WJ/Encore and they are advertising here on Avcanada banners, and over seas at recruiter presentations just to fill those seats shows the discord it has sown.
I see, you're suggesting that it would have been better if WestJet didn't want to have a company like Swoop and someone else would have had it. Not that shoulda coulda woulda are useful, but chances are that flying would have been done by someone like Swoop, the question is would its benefits go to WestJet or another company that would be able to take market share away from behind. WestJet knows this well because A) it did it to others, and B) Jetsgo almost did it to them. So, there!
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by altiplano » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:00 am

But realitychex said airline within an airline NEVER works.
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by cloak » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:08 am

Well, you can talk to him about that. In this case though, clearly it is a response to Air Canada. It can be said that WestJet is learning from history whereby Air Canada bankrupted Canada 3000 but by a "Tango" and then it decided to apply some "Rouge"! WestJet is being wise even if some of its own staff don't get it; it'll save them their jobs.
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by altiplano » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:59 am

No way this is in response to AC. The Swoop market and model is completely different than AC.

C3 went bankrupt because they ran out of money, had debts due, and nobody would lend them anymore.
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by cloak » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:08 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:59 am
C3 went bankrupt because they ran out of money, had debts due, and nobody would lend them anymore.
Turns out denial is not just a river in Egypt! Just because you keep telling yourself that, it don't make it the truth! Air Canada and its Tango were absolutely responsible for demise of Canada 3000, and many others....all it takes is a quick search in case one was too young to remember 18 years ago.

•FROM: Nov. 9, 2001: Air Canada's 'Tango' service barely avoids cease-and-desist order
Late last year, the federal Competition Bureau was about to issue a cease-and-desist order that would have shut down Tango, but the ruling was preempted by the collapse of Canada 3000 in November.

Source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-ca ... 1-1.311489

Interestingly, combined with massive losses at Air Canada, I wonder why!
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by altiplano » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:32 pm

Record losses during a recession and after September 11 you say?

No kidding?

How many airlines went bankrupt after that era?

Cease and desist? Whatever. Not much credibility or story in that article. Didn't happen anyway.
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by cloak » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:48 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:32 pm
Cease and desist? Whatever. Not much credibility or story in that article. Didn't happen anyway.
Wow, "didn't happen"?! Never thought I'd hear that so soon! That is exactly how they change history!!
At any rate, don't know what grade you were in at the time, but been there, done that, got the t-shirt!

In fact, for the illumination of the younger ones, I'll tell a story called: Air Canada.

Air Canada used to be a crown corporation up until 1988, and for those who don't know what that means, it means it got to do what it wanted while the taxpayers paid for it. In 1988 Air Canada became a "private" corporation and between then and 2001, in the space of 13 years, Air Canada managed to accrue as many BILLIONS (read BILLIONS) in debt, in other words 20% of Argentina's national debt that was on the brink of bankruptcy then. That astronomical debt was accumulated in the process of undercutting competition out of business which was(is) basically Air Canada's corporate strategy. It was a surprise, and in much gratitude to bail-outs of another Liberal regime that was in power then that Air Canada survived. Please don't insult our intelligence by some revisionist re-written history!! If you want to change history, change something more distant, not something many would remember.
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Re: ONEX plans

Post by altiplano » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:23 pm

The article itself says the cease and desist didn't happen with the limited information it speculates.

Learn to read your own article.

And drop the ad hominem bullshit if you really have an argument.

Not to mention revisionist!!! Your own diatribe is reek of inaccuracy.
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