ONEX plans

[garfield]

They will sell back the company to AC in 2 years for 5.5B or more and the government will approve it!

[fish4life]

They will sell back the company to AC in 2 years for 5.5B or more and the government will approve it!

That’s a very poor return in investment, especially for a private equity firm. Only 5% / year would not be acceptable.

[WestJet Puke]

I agree that Onex has big plans for WestJet. It has been after having a major airline for over two decades and at least an many continents. There is no money in selling WestJet group in pieces. More importantly WestJet group as a whole is worth much more than the sum of its parts.

There is no money in selling the pieces? The owners of ACE holdings walked away with billions during and after AC’s bankruptcy. A company that was technically worthless. Onex has always lost out on acquiring an airline to monetize until now. Watch for that word by the way or anything like it. Extracting shareholder value has been used as well. The lingo changes but the methodology doesn’t.

In order to do a “monetization” ala Robert Milton, the first thing you need to do is take the company private. Why? Because you need to rid yourself of the fiduciary duty to shareholders. This one detail should give you pause. If Onex was really about expansion, why go private? That’s counter intuitive to expansion and the billions in investment it will take....

Fanblade,

Of course you could be right and it will all come to pass as you say; at the same time, I don't foresee it that way. Let's just say Robert Milton was a different type of person, which is why he is not remembered well or often. One does not endeavor to repeat Genghis Khan if one knows about his so called "legacy". True that it is an extreme example, but only to drive the point home.

It is known that Onex has been after acquiring a major airline for over two decades and now it has an opportunity, oddly enough against the very airline that fought its first attempt. It is more likely that it is poised to show what it can do to make its new airline, at the cusp of its international growth, a truly international airline with multiple long haul routes, joint venture and partnerships, and then reap its benefits too. It is doubtful that it intends to come in to repeat the exact same "performance" of its nemesis (its Genghis!) to make a few bucks. After making lots of money, which Onex (and Schwartz) have, it becomes about the "legacy". Either way, we'll all know soon enough.

It all depends on what side of the coin you are on. There was a study that came out a few years ago that famously pointed out that 1 in 200 people in the world have Genghis Khan's DNA. Talk about leaving your mark.

https://bumpreveal.com/blogs/statistics ... escendants

Although we in the flight ops side tend to look at Milton in a very negative way, I always wonder how people at the executive level perceive him. He walked away from AC with hundreds of millions of dollars. Regardless of who your CEO is or what they are telling you, there is no doubt they know about him and probably hope to achieve that kind of payday. Does Onex thinks that is the kind of strategy that will get them the most $ for their WJ investment? I tend to believe that WJ is worth more in one piece and has a lot of potential when more international flying can be added to our network, but ultimately it is not my call.

[cloak]

It all depends on what side of the coin you are on. There was a study that came out a few years ago that famously pointed out that 1 in 200 people in the world have Genghis Khan's DNA. Talk about leaving your mark.

https://bumpreveal.com/blogs/statistics ... escendants

Although we in the flight ops side tend to look at Milton in a very negative way, I always wonder how people at the executive level perceive him. He walked away from AC with hundreds of millions of dollars. Regardless of who your CEO is or what they are telling you, there is no doubt they know about him and probably hope to achieve that kind of payday. Does Onex thinks that is the kind of strategy that will get them the most $ for their WJ investment? I tend to believe that WJ is worth more in one piece and has a lot of potential when more international flying can be added to our network, but ultimately it is not my call.

So...then in your estimation it's all about money?!

[Fanblade]

It all depends on what side of the coin you are on. There was a study that came out a few years ago that famously pointed out that 1 in 200 people in the world have Genghis Khan's DNA. Talk about leaving your mark.

https://bumpreveal.com/blogs/statistics ... escendants

Although we in the flight ops side tend to look at Milton in a very negative way, I always wonder how people at the executive level perceive him. He walked away from AC with hundreds of millions of dollars. Regardless of who your CEO is or what they are telling you, there is no doubt they know about him and probably hope to achieve that kind of payday. Does Onex thinks that is the kind of strategy that will get them the most $ for their WJ investment? I tend to believe that WJ is worth more in one piece and has a lot of potential when more international flying can be added to our network, but ultimately it is not my call.

So...then in your estimation it's all about money?!

Of course it is. It's business.

The point is no one knows if Onex's plans are to create, or extract value. Both are an option. Money will determine which route is chosen.

Only time will answer the question

[goldeneagle]

Although we in the flight ops side tend to look at Milton in a very negative way, I always wonder how people at the executive level perceive him.

Look where he is today, that'll tell you. Dont think the job of 'chairman of the board at United Continental Holdings' would go to somebody they didn't think highly of.

[yycflyguy]

Milton is not the reason for AC success today. As previous posters alluded to, he stripped value out of AC “unlocking shareholder value” was the buzz term. Calin Rovenescu, and more credit should really be given to Ben Smith for the turnaround. After rouge was forced on us, He was able to convince ACPA negotiators, MEC and the voting members that a ten year contract under present conditions was a good idea. I hate what happened to our contract but respect what their side was able to do. It was the framework for other union negotiations and the market loved that there would be labour peace. Unprecedented growth followed. Would have happened with or without our concessionary losses, IMO.

[Freeport_Flyer]

Whatever Onex's plans are, Air Canada is worried...

Air Canada Challenges Onex’s Takeover of Rival WestJet
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... al-westjet

[Sharklasers]

Whatever Onex's plans are, Air Canada is worried...

Air Canada Challenges Onex’s Takeover of Rival WestJet
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... al-westjet

You think Westjet wont be applying for intervenor status when the competition bureau begins its proceedings on the AC/TS merger?
AC isnt scared, this is how the game is played. If onex is outside the lines then they will have to fix it.

[Hudson90]

Whatever Onex's plans are, Air Canada is worried...

Air Canada Challenges Onex’s Takeover of Rival WestJet
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... al-westjet

You think Westjet wont be applying for intervenor status when the competition bureau begins its proceedings on the AC/TS merger?
AC isnt scared, this is how the game is played. If onex is outside the lines then they will have to fix it.

That’s the problem! Onex isn’t outside the lines. It’s nothing more then stall tactics from AC. Now the AC/TS merger, now that’s another story. Good luck with the competition bureau on that one.

[Sharklasers]

That’s the problem! Onex isn’t outside the lines. It’s nothing more then stall tactics from AC. Now the AC/TS merger, now that’s another story. Good luck with the competition bureau on that one.

Well there you go. The CTA can drop their due diligence and go home, Hudson90 says its all good.
You probably saved the tax payer millions.

[Hudson90]

That’s the problem! Onex isn’t outside the lines. It’s nothing more then stall tactics from AC. Now the AC/TS merger, now that’s another story. Good luck with the competition bureau on that one.

Well there you go. The CTA can drop their due diligence and go home, Hudson90 says its all good.
You probably saved the tax payer millions.

You crack me up. Do you really think the competition bureau isn’t looking at the Onex/WestJet acquisition through a fine tooth comb to make sure their within the Canadian regulatory guidelines. Onex is one of the biggest Equity firms In the world. I would give them a little more credit on their paper work habits after spending over five billion for WS. If their offside, be rest assured they will be called out. Question is why AC felt the need to put this complaint forward now ? I believe it’s a stall tactic.

Onex will, or should I say would have, acquired WS in late September. Mean while Calin is still trying to acquire TS but was given the brake Signal till May 2020. Hmmmmm.

[Hangry]

Who’s Calvin?

[iflyroads]

Who’s Calvin?

The best friend of Hobbs.

[cloak]

Air Canada's merger with Transat is unlikely to be approved without major changes and delays. It knows it and is now trying to delay the competition as well. Of course it has no merit. Not to mention that Air Canada and its CEO have history with Onex and can't stand the fact that it is going to be running the competition, with its deep pockets!

[Hudson90]

Air Canada's merger with Transat is unlikely to be approved without major changes and delays. It knows it and is now trying to delay the competition as well. Of course it has no merit. Not to mention that Air Canada and its CEO have history with Onex and can't stand the fact that it is going to be running the competition, with its deep pockets!

Bingo..!!!!!!

[Tdicommuter]

Air Canada's merger with Transat is unlikely to be approved without major changes and delays. It knows it and is now trying to delay the competition as well. Of course it has no merit. Not to mention that Air Canada and its CEO have history with Onex and can't stand the fact that it is going to be running the competition, with its deep pockets!

Bingo..!!!!!!

Firstly the regulations surrounding ownership/foreign ownership of an airline are legit! All of us in Canada should respect that! Period. We do not want... Nor need foreign money propping up/supporting crappy airlines for their gains while we ALL suffer!!!

Remember that! More than we have against each other we have in common!!!

As pilots we should both celebrate both deals. ((Except cloak... He is a bottom feeding scab that deserves much worst than he (,she) will get)).

We all want growth... And money... And routes. ((Except cloak.. He (she?) Want contractions/crummy wages/ and the same routes)).

Competition bureau's job is not to stop the merger... Rather outline details to make it happen... Aka a Quebec job plan and routes... Etc.

Funding for Onex will be easy. Prove this deal has enough home dough to go.

Other than that just like Nancy Reagan said in response to Swoop looking for people.... "Just say no"

We ALL sick together we will be good. Best thing to happen to an air Canada pilot...a rich WestJet pilot!

[Hudson90]

Air Canada's merger with Transat is unlikely to be approved without major changes and delays. It knows it and is now trying to delay the competition as well. Of course it has no merit. Not to mention that Air Canada and its CEO have history with Onex and can't stand the fact that it is going to be running the competition, with its deep pockets!

Bingo..!!!!!!

Firstly the regulations surrounding ownership/foreign ownership of an airline are legit! All of us in Canada should respect that! Period. We do not want... Nor need foreign money propping up/supporting crappy airlines for their gains while we ALL suffer!!!

Remember that! More than we have against each other we have in common!!!

As pilots we should both celebrate both deals. ((Except cloak... He is a bottom feeding scab that deserves much worst than he (,she) will get)).

We all want growth... And money... And routes. ((Except cloak.. He (she?) Want contractions/crummy wages/ and the same routes)).

Competition bureau's job is not to stop the merger... Rather outline details to make it happen... Aka a Quebec job plan and routes... Etc.

Funding for Onex will be easy. Prove this deal has enough home dough to go.

Other than that just like Nancy Reagan said in response to Swoop looking for people.... "Just say no"

We ALL sick together we will be good. Best thing to happen to an air Canada pilot...a rich WestJet pilot!
[/quote



Fair enough Tdicommuter, except for the jabs to cloak. He/she has their opinions. It’s been a great debate. I call it as I see it. In no way to harm the dedicated pilots at AC or any other pilot out there. Hoping for the best to all. Looking forward to the day I retire and flying Floats partime.

[TheStig]

There aren't too many Canadian companies that face more scrutiny than Air Canada. The benefit of having to work within the ACPPA, comply with foreign ownership restrictions, operate as a Federally regulated private organization with employees who need to maintain different licenses, negotiate with 5 different unions, comply with contracts and regulations, etc, is that you get really good at figuring out when your competition is colouring outside the lines. Maybe they are maybe they aren't but it's a good opportunity to have the books of a private equity firm examined.

The only remarks you'll ever hear the CEO make with respect to competition is that AC needs a level playing field. Access to foreign capital is a huge benefit.

Out of curiosity, everyone seems to think that the competition bureau will place restrictions on the AC/TS merger, are there any airlines in the North Atlantic market who have such restrictions? Air France/KLM, BA/Iberia? Open Skies is open skies, I'm not sure why Canadians always feel the need to punish its successful businesses.

[cloak]

There aren't too many Canadian companies that face more scrutiny than Air Canada. The benefit of having to work within the ACPPA, comply with foreign ownership restrictions, operate as a Federally regulated private organization with employees who need to maintain different licenses, negotiate with 5 different unions, comply with contracts and regulations, etc, is that you get really good at figuring out when your competition is colouring outside the lines. Maybe they are maybe they aren't but it's a good opportunity to have the books of a private equity firm examined.

The only remarks you'll ever hear the CEO make with respect to competition is that AC needs a level playing field. Access to foreign capital is a huge benefit.

Out of curiosity, everyone seems to think that the competition bureau will place restrictions on the AC/TS merger, are there any airlines in the North Atlantic market who have such restrictions? Air France/KLM, BA/Iberia? Open Skies is open skies, I'm not sure why Canadians always feel the need to punish its successful businesses.

On your first paragraph, how was it then in 1999, to fend off the Onex bid, Air Canada secured financing from United and Lufthansa, were they within the limit?

As for your second paragraph, not sure about restrictions, but I expect to see conditions and concessions required to allow the AC/TS merger to pass. Among others, notable would be re-examining LHR slots, other EU routes rights and perhaps requirement to reduce capacity for a number of years to allow new entrants establish themselves, Aeroplan membership, and T3 gates at YYZ will likely have to be surrendered as AC consolidates operations.

[Fanblade]

On your first paragraph, how was it then in 1999, to fend off the Onex bid, Air Canada secured financing from United and Lufthansa, were they within the limit?

This comment tells me you don’t understand the issue.

The foreign ownership rules are about control. Who owns and controls the airline. Not about where loans or financing comes from. The question being asked is simply this. If Onex owns and controls WJ, what mechanism is in place to ensure Onex stays Canadian controlled? Since proper mechanisms must be in place to ensure WJ remains Canadian controlled, what are they? None of this will be difficult to fix for Onex if it’s needed. Much of the question revolves around Onex’s current voting structure and what happens after leadership succession.

As for your second paragraph, not sure about restrictions, but I expect to see conditions and concessions required to allow the AC/TS merger to pass. Among others, notable would be re-examining LHR slots, other EU routes rights and perhaps requirement to reduce capacity for a number of years to allow new entrants establish themselves, Aeroplan membership, and T3 gates at YYZ will likely have to be surrendered as AC consolidates operations.

Really? That sounds more like a wish list.

Competition on the LHR route won’t change one iota after a TS/AC merger as TS doesn’t go there. Perhaps AC should give up slots in PVG as well with that kind of thinking. Maybe DBX? How about LGA?

Competition not affected = Competition Bureau no care.

LGW still has competition from.........um, what’s that airlines name? ........um. Oh yeah. WestJet. In fact the level of competition will go exactly back to where it was prior to WJ’s entry.

AC won’t want to split its operation to T3. They will be looking to negotiate their way out.

TS simply isn’t large enough to degrade competition except on specific routes out of Quebec to/from France and some sun destinations. That is where the focus will be.

[cloak]

...TS simply isn’t large enough to degrade competition except on specific routes out of Quebec to/from France and some sun destinations. That is where the focus will be.

Your assertions are not founded in facts. Transat controls as much capacity to Sun as Air Canada which is about 25%. So their merger puts both WestJet and Sunwing at a disadvantage and likely there will be requirement for divesture of routes and capacity.

Likewise to the EU, Transat controls over 20% capacity (little less than half of AC), so combined they will have a very dominant position to squeeze out competition. This again requires divesture of routes, assets and capacity to reduce dominance and provide competition and choice. Although no other Canadian carrier is currently allowed to serve LHR, it's not by design, rather a left over of crown corporation days of AC and buying out competition. As the market will be different after the merger, all routes, including LHR, should and likely will be under review. There is precedence for this where in the U.S American was forced to concede slots at both Reagan and LaGuardia. Before an unbiased Bureau, the case can easily be made for the same in this merger.

[Fanblade]

...TS simply isn’t large enough to degrade competition except on specific routes out of Quebec to/from France and some sun destinations. That is where the focus will be.

Your assertions are not founded in facts. Transat controls as much capacity to Sun as Air Canada which is about 25%. So their merger puts both WestJet and Sunwing at a disadvantage and likely there will be requirement for divesture of routes and capacity.

Actually the Transat/AC merger will leave AC with 100% of the capacity on some routes out of Quebec to France and Sun destinations. Yes those routes will be looked at.

Likewise to the EU, Transat controls over 20% capacity (little less than half of AC), so combined they will have a very dominant position to squeeze out competition. This again requires divesture of routes, assets and capacity to reduce dominance and provide competition and choice.

Are you kidding?????? The amount of competition over the Atlantic is fierce. AC controls about 12% of it. US carriers routinely target Canadians through their hubs to the EU. AC targets Americans in the same way. KlM same. BA same. Air France the same. To suggest AC is a dominant player on the Atlantic is ridiculous. You seem to be focused on Canadian competition in isolation, with regard to international routes. That is illogical. There doesn’t need to be 2 Canadian carriers on a route for adequate competition and consumer protection. Actually there doesn’t need to be any Canadian carriers to have adequate competition.

There is precedence for this where in the U.S American was forced to concede slots at both Reagan and LaGuardia. Before an unbiased Bureau, the case can easily be made for the same in this merger.

The US Airways/American merger led to almost total dominance in DCA and LGA. I will repeat that for you. The merger led to dominance at specific airports. The competition Bureau didn’t tell American they had to give up slots in MIA because of their dominant position in DCA/LGA. They focused solely on the airports and routes impacted by the merge.

I expect the Competition Bureau to do the same here. Identify Routes/airports where Competition has been reduced as a result of the merger before them. LHR is not an airport impacted in any way shape or form by this merger. It is simply twisted logic and wishful thinking on your part.

[privateer]

I wonder if the plan is to buy/move some Q400s to Pacific Coastal?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... tj-460936/

[JBI]

I wonder if the plan is to buy/move some Q400s to Pacific Coastal?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... tj-460936/

No, not the plan