OTS WesJet Mainline FO

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DropTanks
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by DropTanks » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:28 am

They don’t look for loopholes, they just flat out won’t abide by the contract and will push it as long as they can until forced by either a negotiated MOS or the arbitrator himself...that could take another couple months to accomplish so as far as company is concerned it’s a win. Meanwhile the pilots just get angrier and angrier. Golf clap.
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Freeport_Flyer
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Freeport_Flyer » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:09 pm

ZoomZoom147 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:44 am
Good morning folks,

I’ve recently been pooled and am super excited about it. I have a couple questions for those of you that commute:

-Currently, how long of a wait is it to hold a YYC base? I’ve read the threads and consensus is about 2-3 years. If approved, would a shared seniority list with WJE affect this?
-How feasible is it to commute from YYC-YYZ? Do you bid on longer pairings and/or to start/end your pairings with a deadhead? What are your schedules like?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
I like the question about the one list that went unanswered. As of today the one list only exists between Swoop and WestJet. Given what happened with arbitration and the lack of voting interest, I would expect it stays this way. Encore will have to work out something with their pilots. Flow will continue but an Encore pilot coming in will be bottom of the list and shouldn’t affect you.
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kiaszceski
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by kiaszceski » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:40 pm

Okay, so for now, let's say an FO joins Encore, upgrades to CA within 2 years and move to Calgary.
Then he waits to flow to Mainline for about 2 years and becomes 737 FO.
He has 4 years of "Seniority" so he could technically hold a YYC FO 737 position or least won't have to build seniority from scratch. However, since the One List is gone for now he won't be able to do it and will commute from Toronto for years thus unable to make viable OT or reserve unless he stays away from his family in a crashpad?
I'm not discussing the choice made by one but only if the scenario is likely or not.

Am I right?
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seriousflyer
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by seriousflyer » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:25 pm

Your scenario is unquantifiable. It is impossible to predict crew planning, fleet plans, expansion, or reductions more than 24 months in the future if Westjet Mgmt/BOD didnt sell the company, and now the fact that we have new owners, who have priorities that are completely ambiguous, makes it completely illogical to assume anything at the moment.

If the one list is dead, and now Encore FOs have senirorty only withing encore, then flow to westjet, they would start at the BOTL of the westjet pilot list. The answer to your question: if YYZ spots are the only spots Open at mainline at the time you are eligible from encore based on your encore seniority, then yes, you would go to YYZ, until a bid is released showing vacancy in another base, in which you could hold as per your senirorty number at westjet mainline, you would be awarded. However we have no idea what the timelines or vacancies would be in the next 12 months let alone in 48 months.
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seriousflyer
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by seriousflyer » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:30 pm

I'll add, just to be clear in your scenario, if you were to start today as encore FO, work four years, with the ONE lolist intact, you most likely would not be able to hold YYC FO when you flowed. There are hundreds of pilots in front of you trying to do the same thing. For example, I've been at Encore 3 1/2 years, flowed to westjet, YYZ FO, I'm number 50 or so, to bid back to YYC. So even with 4 years senirorit on the list, I still will not hold YYC FO.
Unless ONEX changes everything, this is what the story is now.
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kiaszceski
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by kiaszceski » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:48 am

seriousflyer wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:30 pm
I'll add, just to be clear in your scenario, if you were to start today as encore FO, work four years, with the ONE lolist intact, you most likely would not be able to hold YYC FO when you flowed. There are hundreds of pilots in front of you trying to do the same thing. For example, I've been at Encore 3 1/2 years, flowed to westjet, YYZ FO, I'm number 50 or so, to bid back to YYC. So even with 4 years senirorit on the list, I still will not hold YYC FO.
Unless ONEX changes everything, this is what the story is now.
Thank you for the explanation, much appreciated.
What I understand is to hold YYC FO, we should be expecting at least 4-5 years in YYZ if nothing changes without the One List?
With the One list, could an Encore Captain in YYC wait for his number to be based in YYC when flowing?

And oh, I guess that's the same story when you upgrade? Unless you wait in the right seat until you can hold YYC CA?
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seriousflyer
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by seriousflyer » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:35 am

If you are hired at mainline as YYZ FO, it would be 4 or 5 years before being able to hold YYC with one list intact.

Depending on what our group decides regarding the direction of the one list, that could change.

If the one list dies - and all pilots retain their senirority and all future hired pilots go on the bottom of the list of their respective company. A YYZ new hire FO Mainline would have to see how it all shakes out, I would guess that it still would be 5 years. But that would start to shrink as the lists start to seperate.
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CXALE
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by CXALE » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:22 pm

Calls going out for Nov GS
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Lebowski
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Lebowski » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:04 am

Does anyone know more about this November GS? Did they call OTS applicants from the hiring pool already or just internal ones (Encore and Swoop)?

Many thanks.
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CXALE
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by CXALE » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:43 am

At least one OTS that I know of
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Lebowski » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:42 pm

Interesting, thanks for the answer.
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seriousflyer
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by seriousflyer » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:38 pm

Most are encore and swoop. I think GS is late October not Nov.
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FlyingMonkey
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by FlyingMonkey » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:25 pm

Company hasn’t announced anything to us at Encore about an upcoming WJ GS...
I think it’s just rumours at this point.
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IwasInverted
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by IwasInverted » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:03 pm

Hi guys,

Thanks for answering my question and providing some insight. Obviously, no one can predict what the future holds. This rings especially true in aviation. That being said, WJ has some exciting growth opportunities with the addition of 787s, ONEX plans, and the joint venture with Delta. New flight duty rules will require additional pilots, as well. They will be selling the 767s and the One list complicates things but I think the upgrade time for an OTS pilot at WJ will be the quickest since the inception of WJ in the years to come.

Sure, AC is better for pay and upgrade time but there has been a mad rush for the two years NB upgrades and that is not going to last. They are supposed to hire several hundred pilots next year, I doubt there are several hundred captain positions opening up in two years for them as well.


Cheers
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WestJet Puke
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by WestJet Puke » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:15 am

IwasInverted wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:03 pm
Hi guys,

Thanks for answering my question and providing some insight. Obviously, no one can predict what the future holds. This rings especially true in aviation. That being said, WJ has some exciting growth opportunities with the addition of 787s, ONEX plans, and the joint venture with Delta. New flight duty rules will require additional pilots, as well. They will be selling the 767s and the One list complicates things but I think the upgrade time for an OTS pilot at WJ will be the quickest since the inception of WJ in the years to come.

Sure, AC is better for pay and upgrade time but there has been a mad rush for the two years NB upgrades and that is not going to last. They are supposed to hire several hundred pilots next year, I doubt there are several hundred captain positions opening up in two years for them as well.


Cheers
I wish I could be as optimistic as you.

The junior-most B737 CA here is a September 2010 hire, YYZ-based. And I'd guess 50-75 folks senior to that CA have bypassed for lifestyle, as they live in YYC or YVR and don't want to commute to Toronto.

The combined WestJet-Encore-Swoop seniority list has roughly 2100 pilots on it. For anyone hired today, there are approximately 1200 people ahead of you to upgrade. Even if WestJet upgraded 50 people per year, a virtually unprecedented pace in the company's history, you are still looking at a 20+ year upgrade here.

The wildcard is the B787. But for all the talk about how it is really going to open things up, I haven't seen it. The junior-most B767 FO is a 2008 DOH. The junior-most B787 FO is a 2006 DOH. My exposure to the 787 is limited to two deadheads. I won't see that airplane, even as an FO, for years.

Oh - the quickest upgrades in the history of WestJet occured in the early years, when it was just a matter of months, and then a year or two. It gradually bulged to a 3-4-5-6 year process, and as I noted above, is now sitting at about 9 years.

The people here are great, and you'll make decent money as a mainline FO, but please base your decisions on facts and data.

By contrast, Air Canada has two year A320 or B737MAx Captains.

Good luck, and Welcome Aboard.
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kiaszceski
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by kiaszceski » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:45 am

WestJet Puke wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:15 am
IwasInverted wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:03 pm
Hi guys,

[...]
Sure, AC is better for pay and upgrade time but there has been a mad rush for the two years NB upgrades and that is not going to last. They are supposed to hire several hundred pilots next year, I doubt there are several hundred captain positions opening up in two years for them as well.


Cheers
I wish I could be as optimistic as you.
[...]
By contrast, Air Canada has two year A320 or B737MAx Captains.

Good luck, and Welcome Aboard.

Thank you for your insight.
What about the MAX? Once released by TC, wouldn't it shorten the upgrade time?
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altiplano
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by altiplano » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:20 am

IwasInverted wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:03 pm
Sure, AC is better for pay and upgrade time but there has been a mad rush for the two years NB upgrades and that is not going to last. They are supposed to hire several hundred pilots next year, I doubt there are several hundred captain positions opening up in two years for them as well.
I wouldn't underestimate the potential...

Current position bid is 350 Captain openings 120 widebody, 230 narrowbody.
There's are 100+ retirements/year, of primarily Captains, for the next decade+.
We still need to show crewing for 11 more confirmed 737 orders.
We still need to show crewing for the bulk of the 45 A220 orders.
Not to mention the options...
We have increased crewing in an initial response to regulatory changes, but I expect we will see additional crewing as this stabilizes.
Also, widebody FO seats pay rates comparable to a narrowbody Captain... 220 777/787/330/767 seats are currently unbid
Good luck.
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WestJet Puke
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by WestJet Puke » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:57 pm

[/quote]


Thank you for your insight.
What about the MAX? Once released by TC, wouldn't it shorten the upgrade time?

[/quote]


As far as I know, we were staffed back in March-April-May of this past year as if we had the 13 MAX 8s that are grounded, we just covered the shortfall by running the rest of the fleet harder (more block hours). So its not like there is going to be an immediate need for 13 extra airplanes worth of crewing. The staffing is already in place.

The wildcard is that over the last few months, we have been bleeding pilots to AC. That has mostly been midlevel to junior B737 FOs. So that won't really give anyone a noticeably quicker upgrade.

You could also factor in retirements to bring down the projected 22 year upgrade that I noted above. Although we have comparatively few compared to AC, who are retiring 100+ a year for years to come. Much of our pilot group is in our 30s, 40s, or 50s. As WestJet is only 23 years old, we don't quite have a seniority list relatively evenly spread out by age, whereby we have pilots from 23 to 65. We have so few retirements this year I could probably count them on both hands. Alternatively, just imagine that you were 30 years old and hired by WestJet in 1996. You are now 53, with another 12 years of flying Teal airplanes if you want it. Get what I am saying.

I try to be optimistic about the future. Hopefully there will be some widebody growth. However for the last few years it has been all sorts of talk about growth, but it really hasn't filtered down to the masses. Any WestJet widebody FO slot requires more than a decade of seniority to hold, whereas at AC, if you want it, you could be in a long-haul aircraft from Day 1.

DaveP - any good tidbits from the pilot hiring / staffing side of the house :) :) :)
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DaveP
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by DaveP » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:44 pm

Hi,
Scott is prepping a com with the latest forecast.

2 classes of ten remaining for this year (Oct 21 and Nov4) for WestJet. I just did the class averages and we are just over 4100 hrs tt for WestJet classes ytd.

As for 2020 - it’s going to be very very busy. I’ll let Scott introduce the numbers to our pilots first. Lots in play for us!

It will be out shortly and I’ll be happy to expand on that after!
Take care
Dave
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Tdicommuter
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Tdicommuter » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:39 pm

DaveP wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:44 pm
Hi,
Scott is prepping a com with the latest forecast.

2 classes of ten remaining for this year (Oct 21 and Nov4) for WestJet. I just did the class averages and we are just over 4100 hrs tt for WestJet classes ytd.

As for 2020 - it’s going to be very very busy. I’ll let Scott introduce the numbers to our pilots first. Lots in play for us!

It will be out shortly and I’ll be happy to expand on that after!
Take care
Dave
sorry Dave
I respect you and appreciate the candor here but I think you made a typo...

That post should say zero people because the only 20 we are hiring are going to be encore pilots.

But super exciting stuff for 2020 nonetheless.
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Hudson90
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Hudson90 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:03 pm

WestJet Puke wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:57 pm

Thank you for your insight.
What about the MAX? Once released by TC, wouldn't it shorten the upgrade time?

[/quote]


As far as I know, we were staffed back in March-April-May of this past year as if we had the 13 MAX 8s that are grounded, we just covered the shortfall by running the rest of the fleet harder (more block hours). So its not like there is going to be an immediate need for 13 extra airplanes worth of crewing. The staffing is already in place.

The wildcard is that over the last few months, we have been bleeding pilots to AC. That has mostly been midlevel to junior B737 FOs. So that won't really give anyone a noticeably quicker upgrade.

You could also factor in retirements to bring down the projected 22 year upgrade that I noted above. Although we have comparatively few compared to AC, who are retiring 100+ a year for years to come. Much of our pilot group is in our 30s, 40s, or 50s. As WestJet is only 23 years old, we don't quite have a seniority list relatively evenly spread out by age, whereby we have pilots from 23 to 65. We have so few retirements this year I could probably count them on both hands. Alternatively, just imagine that you were 30 years old and hired by WestJet in 1996. You are now 53, with another 12 years of flying Teal airplanes if you want it. Get what I am saying.

I try to be optimistic about the future. Hopefully there will be some widebody growth. However for the last few years it has been all sorts of talk about growth, but it really hasn't filtered down to the masses. Any WestJet widebody FO slot requires more than a decade of seniority to hold, whereas at AC, if you want it, you could be in a long-haul aircraft from Day 1.

DaveP - any good tidbits from the pilot hiring / staffing side of the house :) :) :)
[/quote]



To my young avatars out there considering the Captain upgrade times or Wide-body f/o time to position cycles. Be very careful. Consider the path you’ve chosen to become pilots. I’ve been in the airline industry for over 32 years. I remember like it was yesterday, when captains at Canadian Airlines, spent 20 plus years in the right seat before holding a Captain position on reserve B737-200. Or could bid and hold DC-10 f/o reserve after 14 years. Air Canada wasn’t much different. Plan for your Career, not the position. It will come in due time. The Airline industry has its waves of ups and downs. If you plan your upgrade time, you maybe setting yourself up. It’s only a matter of time before we’re back to the old days, of long waits for upgrades. AC included. I understand you have bills to pay. But don’t get to focussed on the fast track to the Captain seat. Remember, it’s the Journey not the destination. Just an old guys thoughts. Safe flying.
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bob99
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by bob99 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:24 am

Tdicommuter wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:39 pm
DaveP wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:44 pm
Hi,
Scott is prepping a com with the latest forecast.

2 classes of ten remaining for this year (Oct 21 and Nov4) for WestJet. I just did the class averages and we are just over 4100 hrs tt for WestJet classes ytd.

As for 2020 - it’s going to be very very busy. I’ll let Scott introduce the numbers to our pilots first. Lots in play for us!

It will be out shortly and I’ll be happy to expand on that after!
Take care
Dave
sorry Dave
I respect you and appreciate the candor here but I think you made a typo...

That post should say zero people because the only 20 we are hiring are going to be encore pilots.

But super exciting stuff for 2020 nonetheless.
I was told from an Encore pilot that these ground schools will be all OTS because they're so short at Encore. Is this correct??
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bob99
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by bob99 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:38 pm

Disregard. Encore pilots just got an email saying no flow for the fall because they're too short staffed. Fall classes will be all OTS.
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kiaszceski
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by kiaszceski » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:20 pm

Is that because of the One List being removed?
From what I understand only Captain can flow to Mainline?
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Oleo 4
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Oleo 4 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:16 pm

Flow is based on seniority on the list(s) regardless of position. The transfer agreement (one list) is still up in the air.
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