OTS WesJet Mainline FO

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kiaszceski
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by kiaszceski »

WestJet Puke wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:15 am
IwasInverted wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:03 pm Hi guys,

[...]
Sure, AC is better for pay and upgrade time but there has been a mad rush for the two years NB upgrades and that is not going to last. They are supposed to hire several hundred pilots next year, I doubt there are several hundred captain positions opening up in two years for them as well.


Cheers
I wish I could be as optimistic as you.
[...]
By contrast, Air Canada has two year A320 or B737MAx Captains.

Good luck, and Welcome Aboard.

Thank you for your insight.
What about the MAX? Once released by TC, wouldn't it shorten the upgrade time?
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altiplano
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by altiplano »

IwasInverted wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:03 pm Sure, AC is better for pay and upgrade time but there has been a mad rush for the two years NB upgrades and that is not going to last. They are supposed to hire several hundred pilots next year, I doubt there are several hundred captain positions opening up in two years for them as well.
I wouldn't underestimate the potential...

Current position bid is 350 Captain openings 120 widebody, 230 narrowbody.
There's are 100+ retirements/year, of primarily Captains, for the next decade+.
We still need to show crewing for 11 more confirmed 737 orders.
We still need to show crewing for the bulk of the 45 A220 orders.
Not to mention the options...
We have increased crewing in an initial response to regulatory changes, but I expect we will see additional crewing as this stabilizes.
Also, widebody FO seats pay rates comparable to a narrowbody Captain... 220 777/787/330/767 seats are currently unbid
Good luck.
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WestJet Puke
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by WestJet Puke »

[/quote]


Thank you for your insight.
What about the MAX? Once released by TC, wouldn't it shorten the upgrade time?

[/quote]


As far as I know, we were staffed back in March-April-May of this past year as if we had the 13 MAX 8s that are grounded, we just covered the shortfall by running the rest of the fleet harder (more block hours). So its not like there is going to be an immediate need for 13 extra airplanes worth of crewing. The staffing is already in place.

The wildcard is that over the last few months, we have been bleeding pilots to AC. That has mostly been midlevel to junior B737 FOs. So that won't really give anyone a noticeably quicker upgrade.

You could also factor in retirements to bring down the projected 22 year upgrade that I noted above. Although we have comparatively few compared to AC, who are retiring 100+ a year for years to come. Much of our pilot group is in our 30s, 40s, or 50s. As WestJet is only 23 years old, we don't quite have a seniority list relatively evenly spread out by age, whereby we have pilots from 23 to 65. We have so few retirements this year I could probably count them on both hands. Alternatively, just imagine that you were 30 years old and hired by WestJet in 1996. You are now 53, with another 12 years of flying Teal airplanes if you want it. Get what I am saying.

I try to be optimistic about the future. Hopefully there will be some widebody growth. However for the last few years it has been all sorts of talk about growth, but it really hasn't filtered down to the masses. Any WestJet widebody FO slot requires more than a decade of seniority to hold, whereas at AC, if you want it, you could be in a long-haul aircraft from Day 1.

DaveP - any good tidbits from the pilot hiring / staffing side of the house :) :) :)
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DaveP
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by DaveP »

Hi,
Scott is prepping a com with the latest forecast.

2 classes of ten remaining for this year (Oct 21 and Nov4) for WestJet. I just did the class averages and we are just over 4100 hrs tt for WestJet classes ytd.

As for 2020 - it’s going to be very very busy. I’ll let Scott introduce the numbers to our pilots first. Lots in play for us!

It will be out shortly and I’ll be happy to expand on that after!
Take care
Dave
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Tdicommuter
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Tdicommuter »

DaveP wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:44 pm Hi,
Scott is prepping a com with the latest forecast.

2 classes of ten remaining for this year (Oct 21 and Nov4) for WestJet. I just did the class averages and we are just over 4100 hrs tt for WestJet classes ytd.

As for 2020 - it’s going to be very very busy. I’ll let Scott introduce the numbers to our pilots first. Lots in play for us!

It will be out shortly and I’ll be happy to expand on that after!
Take care
Dave
sorry Dave
I respect you and appreciate the candor here but I think you made a typo...

That post should say zero people because the only 20 we are hiring are going to be encore pilots.

But super exciting stuff for 2020 nonetheless.
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Hudson90
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Hudson90 »

WestJet Puke wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:57 pm

Thank you for your insight.
What about the MAX? Once released by TC, wouldn't it shorten the upgrade time?

[/quote]


As far as I know, we were staffed back in March-April-May of this past year as if we had the 13 MAX 8s that are grounded, we just covered the shortfall by running the rest of the fleet harder (more block hours). So its not like there is going to be an immediate need for 13 extra airplanes worth of crewing. The staffing is already in place.

The wildcard is that over the last few months, we have been bleeding pilots to AC. That has mostly been midlevel to junior B737 FOs. So that won't really give anyone a noticeably quicker upgrade.

You could also factor in retirements to bring down the projected 22 year upgrade that I noted above. Although we have comparatively few compared to AC, who are retiring 100+ a year for years to come. Much of our pilot group is in our 30s, 40s, or 50s. As WestJet is only 23 years old, we don't quite have a seniority list relatively evenly spread out by age, whereby we have pilots from 23 to 65. We have so few retirements this year I could probably count them on both hands. Alternatively, just imagine that you were 30 years old and hired by WestJet in 1996. You are now 53, with another 12 years of flying Teal airplanes if you want it. Get what I am saying.

I try to be optimistic about the future. Hopefully there will be some widebody growth. However for the last few years it has been all sorts of talk about growth, but it really hasn't filtered down to the masses. Any WestJet widebody FO slot requires more than a decade of seniority to hold, whereas at AC, if you want it, you could be in a long-haul aircraft from Day 1.

DaveP - any good tidbits from the pilot hiring / staffing side of the house :) :) :)
[/quote]



To my young avatars out there considering the Captain upgrade times or Wide-body f/o time to position cycles. Be very careful. Consider the path you’ve chosen to become pilots. I’ve been in the airline industry for over 32 years. I remember like it was yesterday, when captains at Canadian Airlines, spent 20 plus years in the right seat before holding a Captain position on reserve B737-200. Or could bid and hold DC-10 f/o reserve after 14 years. Air Canada wasn’t much different. Plan for your Career, not the position. It will come in due time. The Airline industry has its waves of ups and downs. If you plan your upgrade time, you maybe setting yourself up. It’s only a matter of time before we’re back to the old days, of long waits for upgrades. AC included. I understand you have bills to pay. But don’t get to focussed on the fast track to the Captain seat. Remember, it’s the Journey not the destination. Just an old guys thoughts. Safe flying.
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bob99
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by bob99 »

Tdicommuter wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:39 pm
DaveP wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:44 pm Hi,
Scott is prepping a com with the latest forecast.

2 classes of ten remaining for this year (Oct 21 and Nov4) for WestJet. I just did the class averages and we are just over 4100 hrs tt for WestJet classes ytd.

As for 2020 - it’s going to be very very busy. I’ll let Scott introduce the numbers to our pilots first. Lots in play for us!

It will be out shortly and I’ll be happy to expand on that after!
Take care
Dave
sorry Dave
I respect you and appreciate the candor here but I think you made a typo...

That post should say zero people because the only 20 we are hiring are going to be encore pilots.

But super exciting stuff for 2020 nonetheless.
I was told from an Encore pilot that these ground schools will be all OTS because they're so short at Encore. Is this correct??
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bob99
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by bob99 »

Disregard. Encore pilots just got an email saying no flow for the fall because they're too short staffed. Fall classes will be all OTS.
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kiaszceski
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by kiaszceski »

Is that because of the One List being removed?
From what I understand only Captain can flow to Mainline?
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Oleo 4
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Oleo 4 »

Flow is based on seniority on the list(s) regardless of position. The transfer agreement (one list) is still up in the air.
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pacman007
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by pacman007 »

Isn’t there a mandatory flow percentage per class that Westjet has to follow? If there is,and Westjet just chooses not to follow it, there should be money paid to the pilots who should have gone over to mainline. But I’m sure your new union is all over this? I don’t understand what you guys are doing over there.
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Sharklasers
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Sharklasers »

bob99 wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:38 pm Disregard. Encore pilots just got an email saying no flow for the fall because they're too short staffed. Fall classes will be all OTS.

Thats one way to keep the Air Canada HR inbox full.......
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MrTurbine
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by MrTurbine »

pacman007 wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:46 am Isn’t there a mandatory flow percentage per class that Westjet has to follow? If there is,and Westjet just chooses not to follow it, there should be money paid to the pilots who should have gone over to mainline. But I’m sure your new union is all over this? I don’t understand what you guys are doing over there.
From the encore pilot perspective.

- fall mainline initial courses
All going to OTS. Not just for the fall, wording used , “foreseeable future”. Pilot morale was already at an all time low, don’t get me started on what’s being discussed in the last 24 hours here. Why? Captain shortage, mostly YYZ, but yes, we need YYC skippers too. Cause of shortage, hiring too many instructors and reeeealy low time FOs that are not going to upgrade until 2021, and no incentives whatsoever for an OTS qualified individual to come here direct entry captain, who would rather go straight to mainline or swoop and start the clock as an FO. Yes, better to go to swoop these days than encore, can’t believe those words came out of my mouth.

- incentives to be at encore
As of right now, nothing, nada, 0.
In discussions, retention plan and protocol from the company to attract more people. Is anything legitimate going to come out of it, PROB 40 - nope. We have been getting screwed royally from all parties involved (company and mainline pilots, who I used to call siblings) for the last 12 months.
The real retention plan and LITERALLY the ONLY thing any of us cared about, was the one list. The latest and greatest version that’s going to a vote for the mainline pilots, is anyone who was at Encore BEFORE MAY 14 2019 keeps their seniority on the one list. Anyone who started after that day will get NO seniority. They have to wait to flow to swoop or mainline (which is currently non-existent) and then start their clock for seniority.

- Current wages and working conditions
Newest CBA brought very little improvements, and not in areas that actually matter. Best thing, duty rigs, that only start in June of 2020. We need it now because as skippers we are being worked to the bone. Extensions on duty day are more common than getting flow into Vancouver.
Are things going to improve with the latest email about conversations with the union? Small chance. Very very small.

So you work at mainline, what can you do?

Don’t vote yes for the latest one list propaganda. We should NOT screw over any encore pilot, even if they started after May 14, irrespective of experience. This is the airline seniority game. Everyone comes here for that one sole reason. If you want to screw our future pilots over, pro-date it for a future date like Jan 1, 2020. That way, anyone who is doing the interview process fully understands what they are signing up for. That way you don’t piss off our pilots on property even more.
Keep in mind, we all did the same interview process years ago, and some chose encore, some chose mainline. Our peers who stayed at up north and overseas crap holes only decided to join us now, and shouldn’t have the right to bump in seniority just because we at the little regional have a prop in front of the jet.

You don’t work at westjet/swoop/encore but you’re thinking about it.

If you are low time and can’t get an interview with swoop or westjet, apply at encore.

We have lots of you’s Anyway. This way you can flow to swoop as soon as you have 1500TT and have spent a year on property and have your AAs. But you don’t have to do another interview, and you’ll know how to do things the westjet way when you flow. It’ll help you out lots, make you a fantastic 705 pilot and our training is phenomenal. I guess we have to be given the situation we are in. You’ll thank me later.

If you have more than 1500TT and still want westjet instead of AC, then apply directly to swoop or mainline depending on what city you live in. You fly a few more days at swoop and make a little less money, but you don’t really give a s&!t if you don’t have to commute to the six 4 times a month.

If you are comparing between jazz and encore, definitely jazz, and I’m not going to expand further for obvious reasons.

If you are comparing between westjet and AC and don’t know the current facts, AC is a ton better place to be at, AS OF RIGHT NOW. Will things get better here, especially considering new ownership, I think so yes, and that’s what we are all hoping for. Or else my 4 bars would be gold and not silver. Is there room for future growth, expansion and better wages and working conditions, yes, I think so. Not in the near future. If united parked a max in the desert already as of last week, don’t use the max returning to service as a growth plan in the near future. More 78s and increasing fleet at encore could definitely do that. If you don’t have encore, you don’t have widebodys. Please keep that in mind.

What it is like for a current encore pilot.
Uncertainty, bad paycheques, frustration. If you started before May 14 2019, you will be waiting an average (maybe more) of 4 years, before your seniority comes up for flow. If you are from YYC, Then you flow, ONLY TO YYZ, and then apply for a base transfer to YVR. That takes 2-3 years if things go smooth, right now it’s more. After you get YVR, you wait another 2 for YYC, if you are lucky enough. Then you spend 2-3 years enjoying not commuting before you are eligible to hold YYZ skip. 5-7 years later if the starts align, you can hold YYC skip. Or just play the long haul FO game and take any type in YYC and max out on the pay scale and chill out. A month before your retirement party, you can hold wide body skipper. (That last line was over the top exaggerated, sorry)


My last thoughts. John swallow was right. Sadly. I’m very disappointed to say that. What I really didn’t see coming is that the one list would be betrayed by our very own pilots. I always thought it would be the company that finds a way to do us over. Not you folks. Well done.


Ps. If this latest one list thing goes through, in 5 years encore will be a completely separate entity. We will have jets, (CRJ 705s and Embraer 175s) and turn into another jazz. (We are allowed to have jets upto 76 seats on our latest CBA). We will have a C scale for jet pilots. Swoop has the B scale, and if you think we won’t be offered lower, think again. We will then supply our pilots the hope to one day interview at westjet. Maybe a couple of CBAs later come up with a 30 year plan and force westjet to have 90% flow for all encore pilots to mainline every year. Not sure where I’m making all this crap up from, just sounds oddly familiar.






IMC and head winds.
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citizenbanana
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by citizenbanana »

The mainline pilots aren't voting on anything as of right now.
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kiaszceski
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by kiaszceski »

citizenbanana wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:05 pm The mainline pilots aren't voting on anything as of right now.
So this has been already voted or included in the latest mainline CBA?
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MrTurbine
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by MrTurbine »

citizenbanana wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:05 pm The mainline pilots aren't voting on anything as of right now.
Then you will be soon.
Page 2 - WJA council 234 resolution - one list
Page 2 - WJA council 234 resolution - one list
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Page 1 - WJA council 234 resolution - one list
Page 1 - WJA council 234 resolution - one list
1F1152D6-7F13-4632-A165-E7DFC104F548.jpeg (388.8 KiB) Viewed 4811 times
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citizenbanana
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by citizenbanana »

This is a resolution only.
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moe
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by moe »

I believe the resolution is now on hold until the PTA (pilot transfer agreement) is worked out..
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JoeyBarton
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by JoeyBarton »

[youtube][/youtub

So a wj ots new hire is virtually ahead of everybody at Encore?
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seriousflyer
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by seriousflyer »

No. If the resolution passes, all encore pilots hired before May 14, 2019, their senirority is made whole. Maintaining seniority start date on the westjet pilot senirorty list. Pilots after May 14, start to accrue more senirorty than new hires at encore.
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