One List

[lostaviator]

Encore pilots voted overwhelmingly in support of the contract which had the flow language in it. Did that language not have a “minimum” number of pilots per year with a “target” of maintaining a higher percentage?

If they’re following the contract, that you voted for, unfortunately it is out of WestJet pilots hands. This falls on you guys.

If they aren’t following the contract, there’s a process for that too.

[Bede]

Even without the one list, you’re seeing a mainline jet seat before the age of 25.

Are you kidding me? I don't know of anyone who got on at Encore before 23. Even then, I only know ONE person who started flying when they were 16 and were lucky enough to be able to afford to fly and gain experience before they were 25.

At this rate, I don't expect to hit mainline until I am at least 35.

I have flown with 2 FO's at mainline that were 25.

[WestJet Puke]

At this rate, I don't expect to hit mainline until I am at least 35.

Ohh, noes! In the not-too-far-ago past, I ran into my initial PPL flight instructor in the concourse in YVR. He'd been at JAzz for ~5years at that point, and was looking at about the same before an upgrade, let alone a shot at mainline. As we are about the same age, he'd started at Jazz at ~ 35...

Now lets throw into the picture the guys who are at 1500 hours who are passing me into WestJet mainline.

It's a bit of a slap in the face.

There are 0 1500 hour FOs at WestJet mainline.....

[Freeport_Flyer]

I think the hardest thing, and a lot of the frustration, for Encore pilots at the moment is the uncertainty and zero direction from leadership. If things were just finalized (One list, flow, Onex) then it would be a lot easier to make the decision to stay or go. Unfortunately there is no time horizon on any of those things other than "soon". So with that, you stay put and hope for the best or you jump ship expecting the worst. You could be right and all goes as planned at Westjet, or, you're right and you go to Air Canada, Sun Wing, Transat, etc...

The catch is the time-line to move on. If you stick around and it all goes pear shaped then you're a few months behind on your application than you would be if you started right... Now...

Good luck!

[lostaviator]

I think the hardest thing, and a lot of the frustration, for Encore pilots at the moment is the uncertainty and zero direction from leadership. If things were just finalized (One list, flow, Onex) then it would be a lot easier to make the decision to stay or go. Unfortunately there is no time horizon on any of those things other than "soon". So with that, you stay put and hope for the best or you jump ship expecting the worst. You could be right and all goes as planned at Westjet, or, you're right and you go to Air Canada, Sun Wing, Transat, etc...

The catch is the time-line to move on. If you stick around and it all goes pear shaped then you're a few months behind on your application than you would be if you started right... Now...

Good luck!

If you’re not happy with the leadership, change it. I believe you guys/gals just gave some members of your mec another mandate, so you can’t be THAT unhappy with the leadership.

The game you’re playing in regards to knowing when to jump ship is as difficult to solve as nailing the stock market. No one has the right answer, and if someone did, we would all be doing the same thing. Thousands and thousands of pilots have made the wrong call in the past, and some have made the right ones. If you’re already losing sleep over it, it might be a long career filled with many more sleepless night. This industry is as unpredictable as they come.

[Freeport_Flyer]

I think the hardest thing, and a lot of the frustration, for Encore pilots at the moment is the uncertainty and zero direction from leadership. If things were just finalized (One list, flow, Onex) then it would be a lot easier to make the decision to stay or go. Unfortunately there is no time horizon on any of those things other than "soon". So with that, you stay put and hope for the best or you jump ship expecting the worst. You could be right and all goes as planned at Westjet, or, you're right and you go to Air Canada, Sun Wing, Transat, etc...

The catch is the time-line to move on. If you stick around and it all goes pear shaped then you're a few months behind on your application than you would be if you started right... Now...

Good luck!

If you’re not happy with the leadership, change it. I believe you guys/gals just gave some members of your mec another mandate, so you can’t be THAT unhappy with the leadership.

The term leadership was all inclusive. Union and Management. From what I've heard the Union has been trying to get answers from the company but they are being put off or ignored. The company will do nothing in terms of operational decisions until after the Onex deal is done and there is nothing the union can really do about it. Again, frustration on all fronts.

[lostaviator]

Yea, about that. That isn’t something new since Onex happened. That’s just an excuse you’re being given and the way WJ has been doing business since the day a union started knocking on their door.

If the Union is telling you they can’t do anything for 1.9% of your salary, tell them to take a hike and get some guys in there with BALLS. If they can’t deal with WJ management in the current set-up, they definitely won’t be able to deal with businessmen who actually know what they’re doing (Onex)

[Yycjetdriver]

I think the hardest thing, and a lot of the frustration, for Encore pilots at the moment is the uncertainty and zero direction from leadership. If things were just finalized (One list, flow, Onex) then it would be a lot easier to make the decision to stay or go. Unfortunately there is no time horizon on any of those things other than "soon". So with that, you stay put and hope for the best or you jump ship expecting the worst. You could be right and all goes as planned at Westjet, or, you're right and you go to Air Canada, Sun Wing, Transat, etc...

The catch is the time-line to move on. If you stick around and it all goes pear shaped then you're a few months behind on your application than you would be if you started right... Now...

Good luck!

If AC or even AT calls then go! If mainline FO’s with 5+ years are leaving and some junior skippers too. There isn’t much hope things would improve enough to make it worth waiting around for an Encore pilot. That’s even if management would want to make those types of improvements, which it’s safe to assume they don’t.

[Mrbobmarly111]

Everyone please please please apply to AC asap. You'll be paid like a first year encore cpt as a FO on flat pay and after 4 years (or upgrade sooner) it goes up substantially (making over 100 grand depending on the type you are on). They have a real contract and a real pension plan. I would rather fly up north then commute for a job at weatjet. If you've been told no or you dont have the requirements then I understand. But otherwise please please please apply now. Help yourself. Stop making excuses get out now.

[plausiblyannonymous]

There are 0 1500 hour FOs at WestJet mainline.....

They are asking for a minimum of 1500 hours.

Can you guarantee that no mainline pilot was hired on at 1500 hours?

[goingnowherefast]

2000hrs has gotten at least one person hired and another an interview. I'm talking about WJ, not swamp either.

I don't work at WJ, I just know a couple candidates recently involved with the hiring process.

[tbayav8er]

So apparently, some of the junior Encore FO's who bid to Swoop when they first started up have now been awarded Mainline FO positions. In my opinion, that's brutal. The rest of us at Encore didn't bid to swoop because we wanted to support the mainline pilots by not bidding over to Swoop, and this is what we get. Those junior Encore FO's just jumped the line ahead of the entire Encore pilot group.

[Blue42]

So apparently, some of the junior Encore FO's who bid to Swoop when they first started up have now been awarded Mainline FO positions. In my opinion, that's brutal. The rest of us at Encore didn't bid to swoop because we wanted to support the mainline pilots by not bidding over to Swoop, and this is what we get. Those junior Encore FO's just jumped the line ahead of the entire Encore pilot group.

So why didn’t you bid over to mainline then? There were a couple Capts and 5 FOs that moved to mainline, all YYZ based. If you’re over 2 years you could’ve held a mainline spot, 4 years and you hold YYC.

And I’m not trying to be a dick but just curious, everyone has their reasons....

[tbayav8er]

Not quite. I've been at Encore for a little over 2 years, and I'm still more than 220 spots down the Encore list alone. This is also irrelevant, because management has shutdown flow from Encore to mainline, with no timeline in place to reinstate flow. The reason these people got a mainline spot who started around the same time as me is because they bid over to Swoop while the one list was still in tact. Since the Swoop pilots are now part of the same pilot list as mainline, those pilots that went to Swoop from Encore are near the top of the Swoop list, and therefore were able to bid successfully to mainline. The Swoop bid has been closed off to Encore pilots, as part of management shutting down flow, but even if I were to bid to Swoop (which I have no intention to ever do), I would start at the bottom of that list, and be 2 years lower on the pilot list than other guys who started at Encore the same time as me, who decided to bid over to Swoop, while the mainline pilots were still in arbitration. Anyways, I can complain until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, I just have to wait and see if I get a better job elsewhere. It's just BS though, and it's frustrating to see people who were willing to basically undercut WJ pilots while they were in arbitration get awarded for it.

[Blue42]

Not quite. I've been at Encore for a little over 2 years, and I'm still more than 220 spots down the Encore list alone. This is also irrelevant, because management has shutdown flow from Encore to mainline, with no timeline in place to reinstate flow. The reason these people got a mainline spot who started around the same time as me is because they bid over to Swoop while the one list was still in tact. Since the Swoop pilots are now part of the same pilot list as mainline, those pilots that went to Swoop from Encore are near the top of the Swoop list, and therefore were able to bid successfully to mainline. The Swoop bid has been closed off to Encore pilots, as part of management shutting down flow, but even if I were to bid to Swoop (which I have no intention to ever do), I would start at the bottom of that list, and be 2 years lower on the pilot list than other guys who started at Encore the same time as me, who decided to bid over to Swoop, while the mainline pilots were still in arbitration. Anyways, I can complain until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, I just have to wait and see if I get a better job elsewhere. It's just BS though, and it's frustrating to see people who were willing to basically undercut WJ pilots while they were in arbitration get awarded for it.

Gotcha.....forgot about the flow part not happening right now. With planned over 200 new hires next year at mainline I’m sure it’ll start up again. Hopefully sooner then later....

[tbayav8er]

Thanks, I hope so too! I would prefer to stay here....I've wanted to work at WJ since I was 12 years old....I'm now 30....so to be this close to my goal, and have all this unfold the way it has been is pretty disappointing.

[tbayav8er]

Also, I wanted to bust a rumour I've heard from some people not totally "in the know", about how this is going down. I've heard comments from people concerning the shutdown of flow saying things like "Well you shouldn't worry, because the company has to flow 60%/year to mainline with your new agreement". This is incorrect. That 60% rule was voted down as part of the one-list LOA. As it stands now, if a new transfer agreement, flow LOU or whatever is not put in place, the company isn't required to flow a single person from Encore. They do have to pay the ~$3500/pilot each year if they decided not to flow anyone, but $3500/year is peanuts in the long run compared to spending extra time not at a mainline carrier. Also to reiterate, I don't blame the mainline pilots for voting down the original LOA. I think more should have been done to present an adequate LOA that would have been more agreeable to all parties involved. Hopefully it gets sorted out, but in the meantime, it really sucks.

[lostaviator]

Also, I wanted to bust a rumour I've heard from some people not totally "in the know", about how this is going down. I've heard comments from people concerning the shutdown of flow saying things like "Well you shouldn't worry, because the company has to flow 60%/year to mainline with your new agreement". This is incorrect. That 60% rule was voted down as part of the one-list LOA. As it stands now, if a new transfer agreement, flow LOU or whatever is not put in place, the company isn't required to flow a single person from Encore. They do have to pay the ~$3500/pilot each year if they decided not to flow anyone, but $3500/year is peanuts in the long run compared to spending extra time not at a mainline carrier. Also to reiterate, I don't blame the mainline pilots for voting down the original LOA. I think more should have been done to present an adequate LOA that would have been more agreeable to all parties involved. Hopefully it gets sorted out, but in the meantime, it really sucks.

You're saying there isn’t a written commitment to flow in the Encore contract? The contract was voted on before the “one list” loa... why in the world did you guys vote on a contract that had no commitment to flow? Especially before the LOA language had even been revealed.

The old wjpa agreement at least had that.

[George Taylor]

tbayav8er I feel your pain. WestJet has really gone down hill in the last few years, and no-one with the ability to make change has a clue. It isn't all that great a mainline either. We better hope ONEX can fix it, or it won't matter. The Encore guys should be pissed that you voted on a CBA before all the other details were sorted out. I still feel the angry grandpa and his minions have out smarted Alpa, and continue to be adversarial. Fingers crossed.

[tbayav8er]

Also, I wanted to bust a rumour I've heard from some people not totally "in the know", about how this is going down. I've heard comments from people concerning the shutdown of flow saying things like "Well you shouldn't worry, because the company has to flow 60%/year to mainline with your new agreement". This is incorrect. That 60% rule was voted down as part of the one-list LOA. As it stands now, if a new transfer agreement, flow LOU or whatever is not put in place, the company isn't required to flow a single person from Encore. They do have to pay the ~$3500/pilot each year if they decided not to flow anyone, but $3500/year is peanuts in the long run compared to spending extra time not at a mainline carrier. Also to reiterate, I don't blame the mainline pilots for voting down the original LOA. I think more should have been done to present an adequate LOA that would have been more agreeable to all parties involved. Hopefully it gets sorted out, but in the meantime, it really sucks.

You're saying there isn’t a written commitment to flow in the Encore contract? The contract was voted on before the “one list” loa... why in the world did you guys vote on a contract that had no commitment to flow? Especially before the LOA language had even been revealed.

The old wjpa agreement at least had that.

Exactly. There is no flow commitment in the contract. There is the penalty in the contract for the company if they do not flow people. Ie. If they flow less than 70 pilots/year, they have to pay $28 800 per pilot less than 70 and divide it amongst the Encore pilot group each year. So if there are 550 pilots at Encore, that's $3665 per pilot, but that's it as far as flow language. The company could just continue paying everyone that $3665/year every year, and not flow a single pilot if they were so inclined.

tbayav8er I feel your pain. WestJet has really gone down hill in the last few years, and no-one with the ability to make change has a clue. It isn't all that great a mainline either. We better hope ONEX can fix it, or it won't matter. The Encore guys should be pissed that you voted on a CBA before all the other details were sorted out. I still feel the angry grandpa and his minions have out smarted Alpa, and continue to be adversarial. Fingers crossed.

In hindsight, it's easy to agree with you. However, I was one of the people who voted in favour of the contract (as well as over 90% of the other pilots) because I really was under the impression that the one-list and flow were "in the bag", and with the one-list and 60% flow, it was an attractive contract. Without those two things, not so much. Obviously, knowing what I know now, I would have voted differently.

I really like flying the Q400, and I work with lots of great people. I've got to give it to the hiring department. They do a great job hiring good people. But as much as I enjoy the flying and the overall daily routine, it's hard not to feel demotivated with all that's happening right now. We were told by management "We have to delay implementing trip and duty RIGs until June 2020 that so we can continue to support flow"....Well here we are with no flow for who knows how long, and still no trip and duty RIGs until June 2020.