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lostaviator
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Re: One List

Post by lostaviator »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:59 am That's a load of horse crap. You are arguing that you are right to stab your coworkers in the back because others do it.

It's the age old, if your friend jumped off a bridge, would you?
I fail to see how anyone is stabbing you in the back or how comradely only goes one way now. The only thing going one way was the proposed Transfer MOA.

We had a "One List" that an overwhelming majority of pilots voted Yes to in 2014.

Fast forward, the year is 2018/2019. 2 ALPA MEC's, WJ, Encore and Swoop sit down and dissolve the "One List" and spit something out called the "Pilot Transfer Agreement" with very different verbiage than the original "one list". The WJ pilots were concerned about the language so voted no.

WJ pilots never voted to eliminate the "One List". A $hitty new version was forced on us to vote for and we didn't like it. Why would we vote for something that is a step backwards? You don't have to vote yes to something the first time. A lesson I hope Encore has learned going forward. You voted on a backwards contract with no flow language.

Apparently the language has been modified and the next vote will start in a few weeks. Of course, they went and F'd it up another way now. We will see.
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George Taylor
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Re: One List

Post by George Taylor »

Theres no way the new agreement is going to pass.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

No likely it won't; likely there will be more fall-out too. Likely that puts pressure on WAWCON everywhere...
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tps8903
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Re: One List

Post by tps8903 »

George Taylor wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:37 am Theres no way the new agreement is going to pass.
Why?
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

tps8903 wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:55 am
George Taylor wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:37 am Theres no way the new agreement is going to pass.
Why?
Because the mainline guys really want to stick it to the company by throwing all of Encore under the bus.

They haven't seen the offer and they don't care to. They are just looking for the easiest group to take it out on.
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lostaviator
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Re: One List

Post by lostaviator »

Or maybe it's the fact we don't like being threatened with a pay cut for voting no.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:00 am Or maybe it's the fact we don't like being threatened with a pay cut for voting no.
Would you like to elaborate on that?
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lostaviator
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Re: One List

Post by lostaviator »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:02 am
lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:00 am Or maybe it's the fact we don't like being threatened with a pay cut for voting no.
Would you like to elaborate on that?
Keeping the value of our stock options post Onex takeover is now dependent on us voting yes to the new pilot transfer agreement.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:04 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:02 am
lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:00 am Or maybe it's the fact we don't like being threatened with a pay cut for voting no.
Would you like to elaborate on that?
Keeping the value of our stock options post Onex takeover is now dependent on us voting yes to the new pilot transfer agreement.
Great, tell your MEC that and don't use Encore as your leverage.
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lostaviator
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Re: One List

Post by lostaviator »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:07 am
lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:04 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:02 am

Would you like to elaborate on that?
Keeping the value of our stock options post Onex takeover is now dependent on us voting yes to the new pilot transfer agreement.
Great, tell your MEC that and don't use Encore as your leverage.
Take a moment and think about the whole situation, and then I urge you to reconsider who/what is being used as leverage.

Your MEC was in the room too, I suggest you ask them why they thought this was a good idea. More importantly, ask them why they keep supporting failing LOA's. I find it alarming that the none of our union peers recognize what their pilots will support/not support. Maybe it's time for a shakeup with both MECs.
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Last edited by lostaviator on Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:13 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:07 am
lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:04 am

Keeping the value of our stock options post Onex takeover is now dependent on us voting yes to the new pilot transfer agreement.
Great, tell your MEC that and don't use Encore as your leverage.
Take a moment and think about the whole situation, and then I urge you to reconsider who/what is being used as leverage.

Your MEC was in the room too, I suggest you ask them why they thought this was a good idea. More importantly, ask them why they keep delivering failing LOA's. Maybe it's time for a shakeup with both MEC.
We've just had a shakeup and our pilot group is not the ones who are saying that they are going to reject the new proposal before they know anything about it.
George Taylor wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:37 am Theres no way the new agreement is going to pass.
cloak wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:49 am No likely it won't; likely there will be more fall-out too. Likely that puts pressure on WAWCON everywhere...
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tps8903
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Re: One List

Post by tps8903 »

lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:04 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:02 am
lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:00 am Or maybe it's the fact we don't like being threatened with a pay cut for voting no.
Would you like to elaborate on that?
Keeping the value of our stock options post Onex takeover is now dependent on us voting yes to the new pilot transfer agreement.
The email said you will get full value market for the stock options if you vote yes. The alternative is to vote no and leave the value up to negotiations or an arbitrator. Neither of which will likely give you Black-Scholes value. So what exactly is the issue? You want more than market value?

I'm trying to understand.
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Last edited by tps8903 on Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
lostaviator
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Re: One List

Post by lostaviator »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:15 am
lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:13 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:07 am

Great, tell your MEC that and don't use Encore as your leverage.
Take a moment and think about the whole situation, and then I urge you to reconsider who/what is being used as leverage.

Your MEC was in the room too, I suggest you ask them why they thought this was a good idea. More importantly, ask them why they keep delivering failing LOA's. Maybe it's time for a shakeup with both MEC.
We've just had a shakeup and our pilot group is not the ones who are saying that they are going to reject the new proposal before they know anything about it.
George Taylor wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:37 am Theres no way the new agreement is going to pass.
cloak wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:49 am No likely it won't; likely there will be more fall-out too. Likely that puts pressure on WAWCON everywhere...
Know nothing about it? Do you read the things people write on here or do you just enjoy writing emotional statements? You aren't going to find many shoulders to cry on around here. Emotions aren't going to get the PTA passed.

The new PTA would stand a much better chance of passing if it wasn't tied to compensation. We have been dealing with this company for a long time and know when they are trying to pull a quick one on us.

I suggest you write your MEC and encourage them to reach out to the other parties in hopes of changing this before the vote opens. I intend to write my reps, but it takes all 5 groups to be on board to make any changes.
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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: One List

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:18 am [quote=plausiblyannonymous post_id=<a href="tel:1095476">1095476</a> time=<a href="tel:1573923571">1573923571</a> user_id=67461]
That's a load of horse crap. You are arguing that you are right to stab your coworkers in the back because others do it.

It's the age old, if your friend jumped off a bridge, would you?
I fail to see how anyone is stabbing you in the back or how comradely only goes one way now. The only thing going one way was the proposed Transfer MOA.

We had a "One List" that an overwhelming majority of pilots voted Yes to in 2014.

Fast forward, the year is 2018/2019. 2 ALPA MEC's, WJ, Encore and Swoop sit down and dissolve the "One List" and spit something out called the "Pilot Transfer Agreement" with very different verbiage than the original "one list". The WJ pilots were concerned about the language so voted no.

WJ pilots never voted to eliminate the "One List". A $hitty new version was forced on us to vote for and we didn't like it. Why would we vote for something that is a step backwards? You don't have to vote yes to something the first time. A lesson I hope Encore has learned going forward. You voted on a backwards contract with no flow language.

Apparently the language has been modified and the next vote will start in a few weeks. Of course, they went and F'd it up another way now. We will see.
[/quote]
I completely agree. I will wait to see the offer before making a decision obviously however whenever there is a threat/bribe/extra condition attached in order to sway my vote ....I immediately get concerned and start leaning against acceptance. This whole issue has never been about mainline pilots screwing their Encore brothers and sisters. It was about mainline getting screwed over and we voted no to that, which directly affected the Encore pilots. The Encore pilots who are angry with the mainline pilots need to redirect their anger to where it belongs...the company and the MEC’s who forever what reason changed the one list wording. Now that so much time has gone past without rectifying the list and many have been hired this is only going to end ugly....someone will be unhappy in the end.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

The reason why the last vote was rejected was mostly due to misinformation. The polling done afterward showed that the majority of people heard a rumour, didn't bother to read the proposal, and voted based on the rumour.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:04 pm ...The Encore pilots who are angry with the mainline pilots need to redirect their anger to where it belongs...the company and the MEC’s who forever what reason changed the one list wording. Now that so much time has gone past without rectifying the list and many have been hired this is only going to end ugly....someone will be unhappy in the end.
That's why it cannot be done, continued hiring will only make the problem bigger. Air Canada "controlled" regional "expectations" by creating more competition; WestJet wants to do it by leveraging WJ seniority, because without it Encore would have to have an industry-standard deal. In truth however, such deals, or Air Canada 4 year freeze, sacrifice junior or future pilots, skew the market and are the real culprits in lowering industry standards. In principle, if there is to be a company-specific seniority, it should only be earned by working at the said company, period! As for WJ pilots, they deserve to have an MEC that represents their interests fully, and not against or for special groups, ALPA, Encore, etc!
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Hudson90
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Re: One List

Post by Hudson90 »

cloak wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:41 pm
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:04 pm ...The Encore pilots who are angry with the mainline pilots need to redirect their anger to where it belongs...the company and the MEC’s who forever what reason changed the one list wording. Now that so much time has gone past without rectifying the list and many have been hired this is only going to end ugly....someone will be unhappy in the end.
That's why it cannot be done, continued hiring will only make the problem bigger. Air Canada "controlled" regional "expectations" by creating more competition; WestJet wants to do it by leveraging WJ seniority, because without it Encore would have to have an industry-standard deal. In truth however, such deals, or Air Canada 4 year freeze, sacrifice junior or future pilots, skew the market and are the real culprits in lowering industry standards. In principle, if there is to be a company-specific seniority, it should only be earned by working at the said company, period! As for WJ pilots, they deserve to have an MEC that represents their interests fully, and not against or for special groups, ALPA, Encore, etc!


+1
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citizenbanana
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Re: One List

Post by citizenbanana »

cloak wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:41 pm
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:04 pm ...The Encore pilots who are angry with the mainline pilots need to redirect their anger to where it belongs...the company and the MEC’s who forever what reason changed the one list wording. Now that so much time has gone past without rectifying the list and many have been hired this is only going to end ugly....someone will be unhappy in the end.
That's why it cannot be done, continued hiring will only make the problem bigger. Air Canada "controlled" regional "expectations" by creating more competition; WestJet wants to do it by leveraging WJ seniority, because without it Encore would have to have an industry-standard deal. In truth however, such deals, or Air Canada 4 year freeze, sacrifice junior or future pilots, skew the market and are the real culprits in lowering industry standards. In principle, if there is to be a company-specific seniority, it should only be earned by working at the said company, period! As for WJ pilots, they deserve to have an MEC that represents their interests fully, and not against or for special groups, ALPA, Encore, etc!
+2
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Biff
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Re: One List

Post by Biff »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:23 pm The reason why the last vote was rejected was mostly due to misinformation. The polling done afterward showed that the majority of people heard a rumour, didn't bother to read the proposal, and voted based on the rumour.
Please do share. What was this rumour that caused me to vote the way I did?
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tbayav8er
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Re: One List

Post by tbayav8er »

Ex DC-10, and everyone else at mainline.....please don't let the opinions of the one or two Encore pilots on here talking this way about mainline pilots let that reflect badly on the rest of us.

Myself and 99.99% of the other Encore pilots don't feel that the mainline pilots tried to screw us. I know, as does the vast majority of everyone else at Encore that we need to come to an agreement that is beneficial for both pilot groups.

Personally, I hope that this PTA (which I still have yet to see) will include the provisions that the mainline pilots wish to see, and I hope consideration can be given to voting in favour of the one list, with flow provisions as well. With that, I hope to see provisions as well for mainline pilots to be able to flow back to Encore in the event of downsizing, etc.


Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:04 pm
lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:18 am [quote=plausiblyannonymous post_id=<a href="tel:1095476">1095476</a> time=<a href="tel:1573923571">1573923571</a> user_id=67461]
That's a load of horse crap. You are arguing that you are right to stab your coworkers in the back because others do it.

It's the age old, if your friend jumped off a bridge, would you?
I fail to see how anyone is stabbing you in the back or how comradely only goes one way now. The only thing going one way was the proposed Transfer MOA.

We had a "One List" that an overwhelming majority of pilots voted Yes to in 2014.

Fast forward, the year is 2018/2019. 2 ALPA MEC's, WJ, Encore and Swoop sit down and dissolve the "One List" and spit something out called the "Pilot Transfer Agreement" with very different verbiage than the original "one list". The WJ pilots were concerned about the language so voted no.

WJ pilots never voted to eliminate the "One List". A $hitty new version was forced on us to vote for and we didn't like it. Why would we vote for something that is a step backwards? You don't have to vote yes to something the first time. A lesson I hope Encore has learned going forward. You voted on a backwards contract with no flow language.

Apparently the language has been modified and the next vote will start in a few weeks. Of course, they went and F'd it up another way now. We will see.
I completely agree. I will wait to see the offer before making a decision obviously however whenever there is a threat/bribe/extra condition attached in order to sway my vote ....I immediately get concerned and start leaning against acceptance. This whole issue has never been about mainline pilots screwing their Encore brothers and sisters. It was about mainline getting screwed over and we voted no to that, which directly affected the Encore pilots. The Encore pilots who are angry with the mainline pilots need to redirect their anger to where it belongs...the company and the MEC’s who forever what reason changed the one list wording. Now that so much time has gone past without rectifying the list and many have been hired this is only going to end ugly....someone will be unhappy in the end.
[/quote]
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