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George Taylor
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Re: One List

Post by George Taylor » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:09 am

The results of the Pilot Transfer Agreement ratification vote are in. The PTA has been accepted. 87% of WestJet pilots cast their electronic ballots and the vote has passed with 64% voting in favour of the agreement.
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oxfordhouse
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Re: One List

Post by oxfordhouse » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:36 am

Apparently an Encore Pilot is a WestJet Pilot 🙄
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Re: One List

Post by AirportCoffee » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:39 am

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180
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Re: One List

Post by 180 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:00 pm

Reinforcer wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:24 pm
Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.
You know nothing John Snow.

There’s no shortage of 30, 40, and 50 year olds at Encore with 7,000 to 10,000 plus hours of industry experience who joined 3 to 4 years ago when the Mainline doors were still shut and the only way into “Westjet” was through Encore out of YYZ.

And while all this business was getting sorted, there was a significant number of 20 and 30 year olds hired at Mainline with 3,000 hours or less of King Air and Metro experience.

“People” seem to think Encore is filled with inexperience.

That’s simply not the case.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One List

Post by Yycjetdriver » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:11 pm

180 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:00 pm
Reinforcer wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:24 pm
Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.
You know nothing John Snow.

There’s no shortage of 30, 40, and 50 year olds at Encore with 7,000 to 10,000 plus hours of industry experience who joined 3 to 4 years ago when the Mainline doors were still shut and the only way into “Westjet” was through Encore out of YYZ.

And while all this business was getting sorted, there was a significant number of 20 and 30 year olds hired at Mainline with 3,000 hours or less of King Air and Metro experience.

“People” seem to think Encore is filled with inexperience.

That’s simply not the case.
Either way regardless of age/experience this is a temporary bandaid put on one problem that will cause another. Never a good idea or business practice.
This PTA will help with retention and recruiting numbers at Encore in the present, however I’m going to assume there’s several hundred junior mainline/swoop pilot dusting off their resumes and applying to AC. It doesn’t matter where the departing pilots are mainline or encore, it’s not good for Westjet as a whole.
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doiwannabeapilot
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Re: One List

Post by doiwannabeapilot » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:24 pm

because
Pilot 'A' getting hired at Westjet Encore has 1500 hours
Pilot 'B' getting hired at Westjet has 1500 hours
Reinforcer wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:24 pm
I cannot quite understand how a reasonable person could argue in favour of a one-list between these two pilot groups.

Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.

As I said in my earlier post, encore really needs to work on improving its WAWCON instead of worrying about a seniority list on a different company. However, I still stand by my argument that those hired pre May 2019 should be honoured their spot on the list.
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doiwannabeapilot
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Re: One List

Post by doiwannabeapilot » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:29 pm

I guess upgrade times just improved significantly then !
New mainline FOs can expect left seat within 2-3 years!
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:11 pm
180 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:00 pm
Reinforcer wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:24 pm
Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.
You know nothing John Snow.

There’s no shortage of 30, 40, and 50 year olds at Encore with 7,000 to 10,000 plus hours of industry experience who joined 3 to 4 years ago when the Mainline doors were still shut and the only way into “Westjet” was through Encore out of YYZ.

And while all this business was getting sorted, there was a significant number of 20 and 30 year olds hired at Mainline with 3,000 hours or less of King Air and Metro experience.

“People” seem to think Encore is filled with inexperience.

That’s simply not the case.
Either way regardless of age/experience this is a temporary bandaid put on one problem that will cause another. Never a good idea or business practice.
This PTA will help with retention and recruiting numbers at Encore in the present, however I’m going to assume there’s several hundred junior mainline/swoop pilot dusting off their resumes and applying to AC. It doesn’t matter where the departing pilots are mainline or encore, it’s not good for Westjet as a whole.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One List

Post by Yycjetdriver » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:51 pm

doiwannabeapilot wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:29 pm
I guess upgrade times just improved significantly then !
New mainline FOs can expect left seat within 2-3 years!
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:11 pm
180 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:00 pm


You know nothing John Snow.

There’s no shortage of 30, 40, and 50 year olds at Encore with 7,000 to 10,000 plus hours of industry experience who joined 3 to 4 years ago when the Mainline doors were still shut and the only way into “Westjet” was through Encore out of YYZ.

And while all this business was getting sorted, there was a significant number of 20 and 30 year olds hired at Mainline with 3,000 hours or less of King Air and Metro experience.

“People” seem to think Encore is filled with inexperience.

That’s simply not the case.
Either way regardless of age/experience this is a temporary bandaid put on one problem that will cause another. Never a good idea or business practice.
This PTA will help with retention and recruiting numbers at Encore in the present, however I’m going to assume there’s several hundred junior mainline/swoop pilot dusting off their resumes and applying to AC. It doesn’t matter where the departing pilots are mainline or encore, it’s not good for Westjet as a whole.
How so? Current numbers were 7ish years and now add however many Encore pilots to those numbers. Even if several hundred leave, given current numbers/movement it’s now probably longer than 7 years for new mainline OTS pilots.
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Re: One List

Post by daedalusx » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:56 pm

Just because you can hold the left seat seniority wise doesn’t mean you’ll pass the assessment and upgrade course. One would hope most pilots are sufficiently self-aware of their abilities and experience level.
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Re: One List

Post by CaptainHaddock » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:57 pm

It’s actually still around 8 years, and would be even hire except so many bypass the upgrade to stay out west instead of moving/commuting to YYZ.......unless you are including Swoop, then there is no wait required at all-what a mess.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One List

Post by Yycjetdriver » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:15 pm

daedalusx wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:56 pm
Just because you can hold the left seat seniority wise doesn’t mean you’ll pass the assessment and upgrade course. One would hope most pilots are sufficiently self-aware of their abilities and experience level.
Oh really that’s crazy I didn’t know that (sarcasm).
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Re: One List

Post by bearitus » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:51 pm

That's great news for encore pilots, I am happy for my friends working there! As someone who has a resume in with WestJet mainline currently working left seat for another regional carrier I think I will withdraw my application at this point. Looks like AC and Sunwing are the only options left for me to apply to in Canada.
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Reinforcer
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Re: One List

Post by Reinforcer » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:41 pm

180 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:00 pm

Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.
You know nothing John Snow.

There’s no shortage of 30, 40, and 50 year olds at Encore with 7,000 to 10,000 plus hours of industry experience who joined 3 to 4 years ago when the Mainline doors were still shut and the only way into “Westjet” was through Encore out of YYZ.

And while all this business was getting sorted, there was a significant number of 20 and 30 year olds hired at Mainline with 3,000 hours or less of King Air and Metro experience.

“People” seem to think Encore is filled with inexperience.

That’s simply not the case.
[/quote]

Ah I see. I didn’t know the new hire experiences are similar between mainline and encore. Thanks for letting me know. I have a few 250 hour mentorees looking for their first job. I’ll let them know to apply to mainline.
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Re: One List

Post by doiwannabeapilot » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:01 pm

I'm sorry to hear that. I hear AC and Sunwing are terrible options.
(more sarcasm)
bearitus wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:51 pm
That's great news for encore pilots, I am happy for my friends working there! As someone who has a resume in with WestJet mainline currently working left seat for another regional carrier I think I will withdraw my application at this point. Looks like AC and Sunwing are the only options left for me to apply to in Canada.
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Re: One List

Post by elite » Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:12 pm

So seniority can be bought at WestJet! How much was it, $1500?!! I wonder how many DFR complaints to CIRB about selling their seniority?! This may come back to haunt WJ pilots, especially the apathetic senior group, if Onex buys Porter and instead of merging it with Encore, has to merge it with mainline and senior pilots get bumped down DOH! Also, it will all but stop recruitment at the mainline and worsen the shortage at Encore as people will have to flow from there. For a period, it will work with some cadets coming in, but recruiting experienced pilots will be next to impossible. Unfortunately it will be bad for the industry too, as Air Canada will have no reason to improve entry level wawcon with the influx of applications bound to come in from WestJet. Rock on boys, enjoy your $1500 (minus tax)!
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Re: One List

Post by Yycjetdriver » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:15 am

Encore pilots can celebrate like they won a lottery, maybe say a free car.
Eventually they will receive the car and realize it’s a 1996 cavalier, that barely runs. In the long run that car ends up costing them more than the actually value of the car, in fact they could have had a newer nicer car for the cost of said repairs.
This PTA will come back to haunt all groups involved minus one, management.
WAWCON’s will remain terrible at all levels within the WJ group, and with Onex at the helm the day will come where a sale or acquisition will screw each group over.
Yet another set back for aviation in Canada.
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Re: One List

Post by Dizzy D » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:05 am

I think it’s funny that people think that the PTA is bad for the airline industry. Isn’t this just building unity? Management groups are scared shitless of a unified pilot group. I think I’m the long run, this will raise the bar for Canadian aviation. I think we have a better shot of getting more favourable CBA’s in the future. I know the anti-union people will call bullshit, but just let the haters hate.
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Re: One List

Post by FlyingMonkey » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:02 am

It’s a huge win for everyone at Encore and the Westjet pilot group as a whole. We are now unified and rowing in the same direction moving forward as one group. The negativity towards this PTA is unfounded. There is no way encore and westjet pilots were better off without it. The argument that it is not industry standard and therefore detrimental is nonsense. And further more, the claims that Encore’s wawcon are below industry standard are inaccurate. Encore’s pay scale is on par with Jazz, Porter and Sky, neither of which have bridging pay and seniority.

We negotiated our first CBA this year at Encore and although it’s not perfect, we made great improvements and can build on that moving forward. I feel for the OTS Westjet pilots who are now behind everyone at Encore. That is a tough pill to swallow.

I believe this new PTA was a big win for our industry and shows consolidation and unity.
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Re: One List

Post by cloak » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:35 am

To be fair, this was well played by management and will make a good case study for managing labour relation in universities.

First dodging dividends, now controlled labour costs for foreseeable future, it is a good start for Onex, one handed over by pilots union itself.

For Encore, this may seem like a victory, but it will suppress wawcon for a very long time using WJ seniority as leverage, especially for the young cadets. It will also be used to drive down the competition even more for securing the RJ contract, which is almost guaranteed to go to Georgian.

For mainline, seemingly little extra money, which really isn't, and there will be meaningful expansion for WB, however I expect to see significant shrinkage in NB to reduce the total headcount to about 90% of Jan 2019.

It will allow Onex to execute its plans with very low labour costs, and multiple avenues for expansion. The 50 RJs likely soon will show up at Georgian, and Swoop will grow quickly to 30 tails. With costly stock options replaced by modest fixed costs and labour costs in check Onex will be "nimble" to likely engage in more acquisitions, prime targets being Sunwing, then Porter, which will complicate merging of the non DOH seniority lists, but strengthen Onex's position. The growing size of the various assets within Onex airlines, will bring stiff competition to Air Canada, which it "should" manage using good cash reserves and its own low labour costs and no pressure to raise labour costs, especially entry levels.
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Re: One List

Post by nexus » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:44 am

With only a 64% yes vote for the PTA it is clear that a lot of pilots at mainline are not happy about the PTA. In fact the amount that voted no is close to how many pilots are roughly at encore. Just thought this was an interesting fact.

To say that mainline won't get any OTS hires because of the PTA is wrong. They are currently hiring porter and pasco pilots with 2000 hours direct to mainline and not encore. The only way this agreement would be ideal is 100% flow, and the only way the company can do that is if they lower the captain requirements even lower at encore. Send these 2000 hour pilots to encore and upgrade them in 6 months. Then flow the captains you have now to mainline. However this will never happen. Flow is currently suspended at Encore till summer 2020.
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Re: One List

Post by cloak » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:31 pm

Well, this is the magic of the PTA, it doesn't actually have to happen, but have the illusion that it will at some point, to be effective recruitment tool and also contain labour costs. And for the young aspiring cadets, there is an attraction to come to WestJet group of companies, pass probation, join the union, and never again do interviews or excel in order to grow, just get on the conveyer belt! So it's a win-win.

As for real career growth prospect, it would have been much more effective to have no PTA and push for 100% flow. And since that would have been actually tied to measureable losses in potential earnings, it would have been a better sell and better for the industry. The company's take correctly now is that they have their seniority numbers guaranteed as they wanted, they can flow when operations permit. There will be only a maximum of 90 a year if they can get away with it and there are enough applicants at WestJet. This will minimize double training and it is cost effective. The problem will arise when there is not enough supply of pilots applying directly. Otherwise the seniority number is useless until and unless one actually flows. So this was very smart negotiating on behalf of the corporation.

Of course this is all temporary fix, because in time there will be an insurrection against the union by the swelling numbers of direct hires at WestJet and Swoop. In fact, unless there is some overture from the union towards Swoop, that insurrection will likely begin there much sooner. And of course everyone will be ok on both sides to terminate the PTA, because the union's objective was to guarantee seniority numbers for their buddies (it's not hard to figure this out following resolutions and such), and the corporation wanted to have a clean bill of health for transfer to Onex which will make execution of future plans easier. Very smart move on behalf of the corporation and won't be surprising at all to see some familiar faces on the board, those who orchestrated this whole chaotic symphony!!
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Re: One List

Post by FICU » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:17 pm

So what does this mean for Swoop OTS hires of the past year, particularly Captains?
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Re: One List

Post by elite » Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:59 pm

FlyingMonkey wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:02 am
It’s a huge win for everyone at Encore and the Westjet pilot group as a whole. We are now unified and rowing in the same direction moving forward as one group. The negativity towards this PTA is unfounded. There is no way encore and westjet pilots were better off without it. The argument that it is not industry standard and therefore detrimental is nonsense. And further more, the claims that Encore’s wawcon are below industry standard are inaccurate. Encore’s pay scale is on par with Jazz, Porter and Sky, neither of which have bridging pay and seniority.
Numbers clearly show that Jazz, Porter and even Sky pay more, although to be fair they don't have guaranteed flow and bridging pay; and now with this PTA, Encore won't have to improve its wawcon which puts pressure on its competitors stagnating the wages in the industry in general during global pilot shortage! Understandable that Encore folks are happy with this, but why is this good for WestJet or the industry?
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Re: One List

Post by Hudson90 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:05 pm

Personally I don’t think a DFR or lawsuit will gain much traction. WJ owns Encore 100%. There is history of a one list between both groups despite the vote. It’s my understanding a DFR complaint was brought forward from the JAZZ pilots against their JAZZ MEC for allowing Georgian pilots to flow over to the JAZZ list DOH. Perhaps it’s still on going. Correct me if I’m wrong. My crashpad roommate is now on the JAZZ pilot seniority list with his original Air Georgian DOH. No Merger just a transfer. We maybe only a few steps away from hiring pilots with previous ALPA numbers to our list in the future with their previous DOH. Seems to be the way with ALPA Canada. Despite what’s going on in the USA.

This PTA vote was far from a “YES” slam dunk. It’s time to move on! Our vote will dictate our future.

Congratulations to my Encore friends. Hope you get here soon. I know this is a major victory for you all.

All the best.
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Re: One List

Post by lostaviator » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:10 pm

Hudson90 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:05 pm
Personally I don’t think a DFR or lawsuit will gain much traction. WJ owns Encore 100%. There is history of a one list between both groups despite the vote. It’s my understanding a DFR complaint was brought forward from the JAZZ pilots against their JAZZ MEC for allowing Georgian pilots to flow over to the JAZZ list DOH. Perhaps it’s still on going. Correct me if I’m wrong. My crashpad roommate is now on the JAZZ pilot seniority list with his original Air Georgian DOH. No Merger just a transfer. We maybe only a few steps away from hiring pilots with previous ALPA numbers to our list in the future with their previous DOH. Seems to be the way with ALPA Canada. Despite what’s going on in the USA.

This PTA vote was far from a “YES” slam dunk. It’s time to move on! Our vote will dictate our future.

Congratulations to my Encore friends. Hope you get here soon. I know this is a major victory for you all.

All the best.
I agree. I don't think the DFR will go anywhere. The union can never make decisions that 100% of pilots agree with, so a majority vote is the next best thing.
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