One List

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Checklist
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Re: One List

Post by Checklist »

lostaviator wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:10 pm
Hudson90 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:05 pm Personally I don’t think a DFR or lawsuit will gain much traction. WJ owns Encore 100%. There is history of a one list between both groups despite the vote. It’s my understanding a DFR complaint was brought forward from the JAZZ pilots against their JAZZ MEC for allowing Georgian pilots to flow over to the JAZZ list DOH. Perhaps it’s still on going. Correct me if I’m wrong. My crashpad roommate is now on the JAZZ pilot seniority list with his original Air Georgian DOH. No Merger just a transfer. We maybe only a few steps away from hiring pilots with previous ALPA numbers to our list in the future with their previous DOH. Seems to be the way with ALPA Canada. Despite what’s going on in the USA.

This PTA vote was far from a “YES” slam dunk. It’s time to move on! Our vote will dictate our future.

Congratulations to my Encore friends. Hope you get here soon. I know this is a major victory for you all.

All the best.
I agree. I don't think the DFR will go anywhere. The union can never make decisions that 100% of pilots agree with, so a majority vote is the next best thing.
You say that with the confidence this was the only vote on the PTA.
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Re: One List

Post by Hudson90 »

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Last edited by Hudson90 on Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One List

Post by ahkhamza »

Congrats to Encore and WestJet Pilot group. To anyone who says this is not the industry standard. Well the industry standard is not the greatest and with the PTA voted in, we just set the NEW INDUSTRY STANDARD. Cheers! :smt040
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lostaviator
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Re: One List

Post by lostaviator »

Checklist wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:45 pm
lostaviator wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:10 pm
Hudson90 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:05 pm Personally I don’t think a DFR or lawsuit will gain much traction. WJ owns Encore 100%. There is history of a one list between both groups despite the vote. It’s my understanding a DFR complaint was brought forward from the JAZZ pilots against their JAZZ MEC for allowing Georgian pilots to flow over to the JAZZ list DOH. Perhaps it’s still on going. Correct me if I’m wrong. My crashpad roommate is now on the JAZZ pilot seniority list with his original Air Georgian DOH. No Merger just a transfer. We maybe only a few steps away from hiring pilots with previous ALPA numbers to our list in the future with their previous DOH. Seems to be the way with ALPA Canada. Despite what’s going on in the USA.

This PTA vote was far from a “YES” slam dunk. It’s time to move on! Our vote will dictate our future.

Congratulations to my Encore friends. Hope you get here soon. I know this is a major victory for you all.

All the best.
I agree. I don't think the DFR will go anywhere. The union can never make decisions that 100% of pilots agree with, so a majority vote is the next best thing.
You say that with the confidence this was the only vote on the PTA.
So you're saying that if there was a vote on a collective agreement (CA1) and it was voted down and then a successful vote on CA2, but I liked CA1 better I could file a DFR? I don't think so.

If the data says the majority of pilots supported the "one list" concept, I think they represented the group just fine. Yea, the options were shady but that was more ALPA's doing then the company's.
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Re: One List

Post by Gear Jerker »

Just to clarify something I've seen incorrectly stated a few times about seniority before and after the PTA vote.

Before:

Pilot A hired at Encore, seniority number 2500, effective once they flow.
Pilot B hired at WestJet, seniority number 2501, effective immediately.

After:

Pilot A hired at Encore, seniority number 2500, effective once they flow.
Pilot B hired at WestJet, seniority number 2501, effective immediately.

In the event of a no vote and scrapping of the one list:

Pilot A hired at Encore, seniority number bumps down to the bottom of the list once they flow, even though they probably have 6000 hours and 2000 hours Q400 PIC wearing the same uniform and flying the same passengers when that day comes.
Pilot B hired at WestJet, suddenly jumps up a few hundred seniority spots.
Pilot C-Z150 hired at WestJet (however many OTS hires since the day they started at Encore), has 1500-2000 hours on a King Air or Metro, is ahead of the 6000 hour guy.

Point being, nothing actually changes with the PTA vote in terms of the function of departmental seniority; it's just that the existing practice is now hardened in a legally binding agreement between all 5 parties involved.

Without commenting on the merits of the existence of this practice, this is how it ACTUALLY works guys and gals.
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Re: One List

Post by FICU »

So how does this affect the Swoopers?
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Re: One List

Post by Tacoma »

BOTL.
FICU wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:00 pm So how does this affect the Swoopers?
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Re: One List

Post by The Fish »

FICU wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:00 pm So how does this affect the Swoopers?
Safe in current positions for now....
But with a reduction bid coming in the second half of 2020, likely bumped into the right seat till every qualified encore person turns down the left seat at swoop.
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Re: One List

Post by FICU »

Ugly!
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Re: One List

Post by tps8903 »

Hangry wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:06 am Encoretears.png

I guess a spoonful of sugar helped that medicine go down.
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Re: One List

Post by daedalusx »

Well Flair is hiring DECs so maybe all those guys can do the sideway dance once again ...
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Re: One List

Post by CaptainHaddock »

The Fish wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:52 pm
FICU wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:00 pm So how does this affect the Swoopers?
Safe in current positions for now....
But with a reduction bid coming in the second half of 2020, likely bumped into the right seat till every qualified encore person turns down the left seat at swoop.

Before we tee up any 2020 reduction bids we’ll have to see what Onex has planned. And Swoop WAWCON will be no different in 2020 (again, unless Onex chooses to address them). With WJ planning 250+ hires and AC still taking WJ guys regularly Encore guys can just flow right into mainline, unless they are masochistic, then go to Swoop.
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Re: One List

Post by DropTanks »

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Re: One List

Post by DropTanks »

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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

DropTanks wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:26 pmNo Encore flow will ever take precedence over reinstatement rights.
As per the PTA, any recall will be done in accordance with the respective collective agreement.
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Re: One List

Post by ALPApolicy »

JBI wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:06 pm
sarg wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:44 pm
Kaplan dealt with that in his arbitrated CBA. Those pilots that flowed prior to Jan 1, 2019 retained their seniority rights, all others had that condition of employment terminated.
Hi sarg,

That is correct and I don't disagree. I was simply outlining that the seniority transfer was a previous condition of employment and not "informal" as was alluded to in previous posts. Especially for those 550 Encore pilots that were hired with these previous conditions of employment and stood by the mainline pilots during negotiations, picketing and avoidance of Swoop, there was nothing "informal" there.

As for what you will or will not vote for, I'm more than happy to meet for coffee and chat but can't really get into it on the board. But as I've discussed with dozens of my friends at Mainline, you need to play the scenario out two or three steps. Having current Encore pilots lose their seniority will, in my opinion, have some pretty detrimental effects on mainline pilots' career advancement in the long run.
This statement (underlined, in bold), did not age well. Although I respect JBI’s legal accomplishments, his speciality was not labour law, nor did he have a crystal ball. The justification that WJ pilots would suffer “detrimental effects” if the Encore pilots did not get super-seniority at WJ is no longer valid, unless the time frame is 5, 10, or maybe 15 years (by which time many of the OTS WJ pilots would be close to retirement).

Also, you get what you pay for. If you didn’t pay anything for an opinion from a lawyer, well, ...
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

ALPApolicy, good observations.

Although It's not Encore MEC's fault if another bargaining unit is not as quick to protect its members. Right after April MOA, work should have begun on mitigating layoffs consistent with the pattern not only in aviation, as with U.S and overseas carriers, but all industries which have been reducing hours by 40-50%. This would be better than 25% on full blocks and 75% laid off. This is the principle of a "union" which ALPA espouses too.

One could argue that Encore MEC didn't have to allocate the extra pay for their existing pilots, but then again WJ MEC can negotiate the same thing for pilots bumping down. Encore MEC cannot be faulted for trying to protect its current members now or trying to advance their career prospects in the past by selling the One list. WJ MEC should have done the same for its existing members, as the One list was never a good idea.
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Re: One List

Post by Jean-Pierre »

Alberta is essentially over.
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Re: One List

Post by JBI »

ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:18 am
This statement (underlined, in bold), did not age well. Although I respect JBI’s legal accomplishments, his speciality was not labour law, nor did he have a crystal ball. The justification that WJ pilots would suffer “detrimental effects” if the Encore pilots did not get super-seniority at WJ is no longer valid, unless the time frame is 5, 10, or maybe 15 years (by which time many of the OTS WJ pilots would be close to retirement).

Also, you get what you pay for. If you didn’t pay anything for an opinion from a lawyer, well, ...
Oooooo, called out by an anonymous internet poster with 4 posts for a year old post. :lol:

Is this a throwdown? A showdown? A hell no, I can't slow down? (can you believe that song is over 30 years old!?)

Unfortunately I'm not able to get into an epic AvCanada rap battle (or alternative) since I acquired my alpa.org e-mail address (that IS an actual "ALPApolicy" - "No PTA" isn't an ALPApolicy - I've discussed that a few times in my visits/meetings/training in Toronto and DC). Here's the thing, you are welcome to e-mail me at my alpa.org address (non-anonymously) and I'm happy to have a virtual coffee chat to discuss. Although the ALPA positions are all volunteer, we do get Flight Pay Loss that is covered by your dues, so while in one of my positions with the national/international organization, you do 'pay' for my service in some respect. So seriously, happy to discuss. Again, with your real name.

It's a pretty stressful time for everyone and there have been many moving parts. Lots of opinions going around (unfortunately, many of them are based on incorrect facts or assumptions). At the end of the day, the Encore MOA2 prevented an additional 140 lay-offs. That's an extra 140 positions that mainline pilots are eligible to bump into if they so choose to avoid being laid off. I understand the opinion by some that getting laid off is better than saving 140 jobs at reduced wages. I respectfully disagree, especially as the severity and length of this situation remains uncertain.

All the WestJet, Swoop and Encore pilots are in for challenging times. I hope you all stay safe and keep well.
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Wow!
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