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7dirty7
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Re: One List

Post by 7dirty7 »

ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:18 am
JBI wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:06 pm
sarg wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:44 pm
Kaplan dealt with that in his arbitrated CBA. Those pilots that flowed prior to Jan 1, 2019 retained their seniority rights, all others had that condition of employment terminated.
Hi sarg,

That is correct and I don't disagree. I was simply outlining that the seniority transfer was a previous condition of employment and not "informal" as was alluded to in previous posts. Especially for those 550 Encore pilots that were hired with these previous conditions of employment and stood by the mainline pilots during negotiations, picketing and avoidance of Swoop, there was nothing "informal" there.

As for what you will or will not vote for, I'm more than happy to meet for coffee and chat but can't really get into it on the board. But as I've discussed with dozens of my friends at Mainline, you need to play the scenario out two or three steps. Having current Encore pilots lose their seniority will, in my opinion, have some pretty detrimental effects on mainline pilots' career advancement in the long run.
This statement (underlined, in bold), did not age well. Although I respect JBI’s legal accomplishments, his speciality was not labour law, nor did he have a crystal ball. The justification that WJ pilots would suffer “detrimental effects” if the Encore pilots did not get super-seniority at WJ is no longer valid, unless the time frame is 5, 10, or maybe 15 years (by which time many of the OTS WJ pilots would be close to retirement).

Also, you get what you pay for. If you didn’t pay anything for an opinion from a lawyer, well, ...
You're special so I'll spell out how it aged very well. There are now 292 jobs that mainline can bump into if they choose to because of the PTA. It gave 292 mainline guys way more options over a lay off.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: One List

Post by ALPApolicy »

7dirty7 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:21 pm
ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:18 am
JBI wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:06 pm

Hi sarg,

That is correct and I don't disagree. I was simply outlining that the seniority transfer was a previous condition of employment and not "informal" as was alluded to in previous posts. Especially for those 550 Encore pilots that were hired with these previous conditions of employment and stood by the mainline pilots during negotiations, picketing and avoidance of Swoop, there was nothing "informal" there.

As for what you will or will not vote for, I'm more than happy to meet for coffee and chat but can't really get into it on the board. But as I've discussed with dozens of my friends at Mainline, you need to play the scenario out two or three steps. Having current Encore pilots lose their seniority will, in my opinion, have some pretty detrimental effects on mainline pilots' career advancement in the long run.
This statement (underlined, in bold), did not age well. Although I respect JBI’s legal accomplishments, his speciality was not labour law, nor did he have a crystal ball. The justification that WJ pilots would suffer “detrimental effects” if the Encore pilots did not get super-seniority at WJ is no longer valid, unless the time frame is 5, 10, or maybe 15 years (by which time many of the OTS WJ pilots would be close to retirement).

Also, you get what you pay for. If you didn’t pay anything for an opinion from a lawyer, well, ...
You're special so I'll spell out how it aged very well. There are now 292 jobs that mainline can bump into if they choose to because of the PTA. It gave 292 mainline guys way more options over a lay off.
Any chance you can post without demeaning other posters? While I disagree with some posters’ opinions here, I hope, as a new member, to be respectful.

I think we have just seen (Encore MOA 2) an example where the decisions taken by WJ and Encore MEC’s may head in different directions. I suggest this will not be the last time. There is no way to defeat a human’s instinct for self-interest.

I wonder what the implications are for Encore pilots if this slowdown persists and laid off WJ pilots were to form the new MEC? Tomorrow will show how many bumped into WEN.

Best wishes to everyone.
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Last edited by ALPApolicy on Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Realitychex
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Re: One List

Post by Realitychex »

Genius move.

Force the company to spend finite cash retraining pilots to fly aircraft temporarily until this SS is over.

The airlines that bounce back to previous operations the fastest will be the ones that were not forced by intransigent unions to expend their most limited resource on idiotic, wasteful retraining programs such as these.

The concept of short term pain, long term gain is completely lost on some folks.

Meanwhile, the competition, both existing and otherwise, must be thanking their lucky stars the once leanest and meanest operator in Canada now has to deal with a collective dose of stupid.

Indigo is going to club WJ into quick oblivion if this sort of nonsense continues. At that point, seniority and allegiance to big brother union will buy you a cup of hot, steaming jack squat.

8)
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altiplano
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Re: One List

Post by altiplano »

Realitychex wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:14 am Genius move.

Force the company to spend finite cash retraining pilots to fly aircraft temporarily until this SS is over.

The airlines that bounce back to previous operations the fastest will be the ones that were not forced by intransigent unions to expend their most limited resource on idiotic, wasteful retraining programs such as these.

The concept of short term pain, long term gain is completely lost on some folks.

Meanwhile, the competition, both existing and otherwise, must be thanking their lucky stars the once leanest and meanest operator in Canada now has to deal with a collective dose of stupid.

Indigo is going to club WJ into quick oblivion if this sort of nonsense continues. At that point, seniority and allegiance to big brother union will buy you a cup of hot, steaming jack squat.

8)
Short term pain for long term gain? Completely lost on some folks like the executive MBA types?

It seems WJ management made the decision to lay off Pilots, not ALPA.

If spending cash on training and putting guys out of the best position for business recovery in a few months is what they want, looks like it's what they'll get? Or did ALPA just call the bluff and fear?
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ALPApolicy
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Re: One List

Post by ALPApolicy »

Realitychex wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:14 am Genius move.

Force the company to spend finite cash retraining pilots to fly aircraft temporarily until this SS is over.

The airlines that bounce back to previous operations the fastest will be the ones that were not forced by intransigent unions to expend their most limited resource on idiotic, wasteful retraining programs such as these.

The concept of short term pain, long term gain is completely lost on some folks.

Meanwhile, the competition, both existing and otherwise, must be thanking their lucky stars the once leanest and meanest operator in Canada now has to deal with a collective dose of stupid.

Indigo is going to club WJ into quick oblivion if this sort of nonsense continues. At that point, seniority and allegiance to big brother union will buy you a cup of hot, steaming jack squat.

8)
Yes. By entering into the PTA, the intransigent company and the intransigent union forced retraining costs onto the company to the detriment of the OTS WJ pilots and ultimately all stakeholders invested in WJ’s survival.

Had the WJ MEC simply followed ALPA policy, the retraining costs would be much, much less (retraining of 767 pilots, and displaced 737 CA to 737 FO retraining).

How simple.
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Last edited by ALPApolicy on Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dry Guy
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Re: One List

Post by Dry Guy »

Oh noo bros. WestJet was supposed to be fine. It was Air Canada that was supposed to run out of money. I thought Reality Chex's posts were legally binding. They were so long and contained so many numbers.
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Hangry
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Re: One List

Post by Hangry »

If a company cannot exist without doing whatever it wants whenever it wants regardless of its CBA’s and organized labour groups then it shouldn’t exist.

Simple as that.
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Fanblade
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Re: One List

Post by Fanblade »

Realitychex wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:14 am Genius move.

Force the company to spend finite cash retraining pilots to fly aircraft temporarily until this SS is over.

The airlines that bounce back to previous operations the fastest will be the ones that were not forced by intransigent unions to expend their most limited resource on idiotic, wasteful retraining programs such as these.

The concept of short term pain, long term gain is completely lost on some folks.

Meanwhile, the competition, both existing and otherwise, must be thanking their lucky stars the once leanest and meanest operator in Canada now has to deal with a collective dose of stupid.

Indigo is going to club WJ into quick oblivion if this sort of nonsense continues. At that point, seniority and allegiance to big brother union will buy you a cup of hot, steaming jack squat.

8)
Who made the decision to have multiple aircraft types? I remember you extolling the virtues of a single type. That virtue being training costs, flexibility and agility.

When WJ moved away from a single fleet type model they chose higher cost training and less flexibility/agility if a black swan event should occur. We call them black swan but really? In this industry? They are inevitable unseen events.

WJ management chose this, not the employees. Now when the negative consequences of multiple fleet types are born out, you would like to disproportionately off load the consequences on to employees for the greater good?

Survival is a shared responsibility. The key word is shared. If the solution management wants won’t be equitable to employees it will never fly.

Everyone just sit down. Listen to each other. Take the others concerns seriously and take action on them. If either side becomes intransigent you both lose.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

h angry that's a very naive and idealistic sentiment, one that is not founded in realities of the world. I recall a CUPE rep saying the same thing during Canada 3000 bankruptcy. He also said: "my mortgage is paid off, if the company cannot follow the CBA I could care less if it goes bankrupt"! Which of course it did. That guy now works for CUPE while other regular FAs had to find other work.

The notion of "unions" that value a "brotherhood of all pilots" don't work in the reality of the current market, where loyalty can only apply to one's place of employment because it pays the bills and once it is no more, that brotherhood can get them an interview at best. If there was a national union which supplied pilots (like other professionals) to all companies, that would be different. However the fact is that one airline disappearing is great for competitors who can hire some of the qualified disbanded staff, after an interview, at the bottom of their list and at year one salary!

Realitychex and ALPApolicy may be direct, but they speak the truth. The fact is Encore MEC served its members by advancing their careers by giving them super seniority into another airline which has never been done before, and protecting them now by making it undesirable for WJ pilots to bump into those positions which seemingly they had traded for the said super seniorities.

WJ MEC has to start protecting its members too and retain as many pilots as possible. They have to minimize layoffs in a way that there will little change of positions which compounds the effects of reduced blocks and put in place guarantees that will see their income restored once the industry picks up. In due time, they can examine the sense of the pilot group regarding nullifying the one list or revoking super seniorities.
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Last edited by cloak on Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:51 am, edited 5 times in total.
xkbal
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Re: One List

Post by xkbal »

Realitychex wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:14 am Genius move.

Force the company to spend finite cash retraining pilots to fly aircraft temporarily until this SS is over.

The airlines that bounce back to previous operations the fastest will be the ones that were not forced by intransigent unions to expend their most limited resource on idiotic, wasteful retraining programs such as these.

The concept of short term pain, long term gain is completely lost on some folks.

Meanwhile, the competition, both existing and otherwise, must be thanking their lucky stars the once leanest and meanest operator in Canada now has to deal with a collective dose of stupid.

Indigo is going to club WJ into quick oblivion if this sort of nonsense continues. At that point, seniority and allegiance to big brother union will buy you a cup of hot, steaming jack squat.

8)
While I'm no fan of unions and never liked this PTA. The company liked this agreement when it was used as a recruiting/hiring tool to get people to go to Encore. You're saying they want all the benefits of the agreement without any of the risks of the agreement. That seems reasonable.
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Fanblade
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Re: One List

Post by Fanblade »

cloak wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:12 am
Realitychex and ALPApolicy may be direct, but they speak the truth. The fact is Encore MEC served its members by advancing their careers by giving them super seniority into another airline which has never been done before, and protecting them now by making it undesirable for WJ pilots to bump into those positions which seemingly they had traded for the said super seniorities.

WJ MEC has to start protecting its members too and retain as many pilots as possible. They have to minimize layoffs in a way that there will little change of positions which compounds the effects of reduced blocks and put in place guarantees that will see their income restored once the industry picks up. In due time, they should also look at ways of nullifying the one list and revoking super seniorities.
You should never have allowed a separate bargaining unit at Encore. The history of regional pilots and the conflicts between them and their parent company pilots is plentiful. Why are you surprised? Your suggested actions will only make a future situation worse. You will green light the Encore MEC into competing for your work once the dust settles. Maybe sooner. Trust me, it will happen. Then the race to the bottom starts.

Don’t go there. You do not want another group competing for your work.

How about fix the problem right now? One list, one bargaining unit. Pilots on the WJ seniority list are on loan to Encore. Just like Rouge. It’s not the ideal setup, but far superior to having a separate bargaining unit at Encore which will be used against you in perpetuity.

Just think about how creative an angry Encore MEC could get. Hey WJ management we now have a bunch of 737 type rated pilots. You have a bunch of idle 737’s. How about we help you with that for 25% off? Swoop is already doing that you say? How about 40% off?
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Last edited by Fanblade on Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Interesting proposition, however unless there is a national organization completely different from current unions, one that is more involved with the profession and resembles college of doctors, nurses or lawyers, these challenges will continue. And personally I can't see how that would work with multiple airlines and competing interests...
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Last edited by cloak on Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Fanblade
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Re: One List

Post by Fanblade »

cloak wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:57 am Interesting proposition, however unless there is a national organization completely different from current unions, one that is more involved with the profession and resembles college of doctors, nurse or lawyers, these challenges will continue. And personally I can't see how that would work with multiple airlines and competing interests...
Rouge is set up this way. Rouge doesn’t actually have pilots. They are on contract from AC. Essentially AC is a crewing company for Rouge.

I’m not suggesting it is a go to solution because it’s not. But it is far far superior to a separate bargaining unit.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

And how about the myriad of regionals Air Canada possess?!
Uniting pilots nationally under one umbrella is a herculean task that is not possible with competing airlines.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: One List

Post by ALPApolicy »

Fanblade wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:45 am
cloak wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:12 am
Realitychex and ALPApolicy may be direct, but they speak the truth. The fact is Encore MEC served its members by advancing their careers by giving them super seniority into another airline which has never been done before, and protecting them now by making it undesirable for WJ pilots to bump into those positions which seemingly they had traded for the said super seniorities.

WJ MEC has to start protecting its members too and retain as many pilots as possible. They have to minimize layoffs in a way that there will little change of positions which compounds the effects of reduced blocks and put in place guarantees that will see their income restored once the industry picks up. In due time, they should also look at ways of nullifying the one list and revoking super seniorities.
You should never have allowed a separate bargaining unit at Encore. The history of regional pilots and the conflicts between them and their parent company pilots is plentiful. Why are you surprised? Your suggested actions will only make a future situation worse. You will green light the Encore MEC into competing for your work once the dust settles. Maybe sooner. Trust me, it will happen. Then the race to the bottom starts.

Don’t go there. You do not want another group competing for your work.

How about fix the problem right now? One list, one bargaining unit. Pilots on the WJ seniority list are on loan to Encore. Just like Rouge. It’s not the ideal setup, but far superior to having a separate bargaining unit at Encore which will be used against you in perpetuity.

Just think about how creative an angry Encore MEC could get. Hey WJ management we now have a bunch of 737 type rated pilots. You have a bunch of idle 737’s. How about we help you with that for 25% off? Swoop is already doing that you say? How about 40% off?
There is no way, absolutely no way, unless WJ management wants it, to bring Encore pilots into the WJ bargaining unit.
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Fanblade
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Re: One List

Post by Fanblade »

Cloak and ALPA policy.

Yes AC regionals are separate. It is a lesson learned. A painful lesson.

AC and AC regional pilots had an opportunity 25 years ago to consolidate into one list and it was squandered. The ensuing competition for each other’s jobs has scars in our contract to this day.

Think like a CEO. All crisis come with opportunities. Think beyond this crisis. If WJ management wants something from you?

The real question is what kind of priority do you put on it. Do you see the ever present danger in having a regional as a separate bargaining unit, combined with inadequate scope protections?

Do you choose to respond to this danger by tightening scope? That will create retaliation and take you down a path well travelled. Do you do nothing and just ignore the threat?

Or do you just fix the problem?
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Last edited by Fanblade on Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
ALPApolicy
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Re: One List

Post by ALPApolicy »

Disregard my previous post. Even if WJ management wanted it, the CIRB would likely not agree to it. The labor model where regional airlines in Canada are in a separate bargaining units is a model the CIRB will not easily alter. For many years, the current model has achieved the aims of labor peace.

The only practical option is for WJ to close Encore and place the Q400's into the WJ fleet.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Plus it puts WestJet group at substantial financial disadvantage to say Air Canada group. It is idealistic to think WestJet is going to rewrite labour structure and in the process increase its costs so much that puts its longevity in question. It can't do something substantially more expensive than Air Canada.
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Fanblade
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Re: One List

Post by Fanblade »

Then you had better start tightening scope.
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vrefplus5
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Re: One List

Post by vrefplus5 »

The only practical option is for WJ to close Encore and place the Q400's into the WJ fleet.
+1. And may very well happen.
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