One List

[Yycjetdriver]

Jazz has survived for years with no “one list”, and no “regional pilot incentive program”. Encore will survive too.

I'm sure Encore will survive by hiring any scraps they can who can't get on at Jazz, AC, WJ, TS, SW and the likes.

Ummmm yeah... that’s usually how it works. It’s regional flying.....

[lostaviator]

Sometimes you pick a line thinking it’s the shortest but end up watching people pass you in the next line over.

A pilots number 1 motivator is upgrade time. They can pay encore pilots 50% more, but people will still leave if they think upgrades will be faster at Air Canada. WestJet can’t control the age of its workforce or the date they will retire.

Look at a one of our fellow forum members who went to swoop as a captain, had a WestJet seniority number, but couldn’t stand the thought of being an FO (WITH captain pay) after the arbitrators ruling so left to “greener pastures”. (That green paint is real ugly btw).

I supported the one list, but think we are all overly thinking how simple a problem this actually is. The one list isn’t going to stop Air Canada / Jazz being the more desirable option for the next 10 years.

It sucks to lose something you had, but everyone entering this industry is already hitting career milestones that took previous generations thousands of hours and decades to reach. Even without the one list, you’re seeing a mainline jet seat before the age of 25.

Maybe they will reach an agreement and put it out for another vote, but I don’t think that’s likely given the cost risk they managed to weasel out of with the language change. The cost of losing pilots hasn’t exceeded the potential cost of layoffs and back filling positions down the list.

[plausiblyannonymous]

Even without the one list, you’re seeing a mainline jet seat before the age of 25.

Are you kidding me? I don't know of anyone who got on at Encore before 23. Even then, I only know ONE person who started flying when they were 16 and were lucky enough to be able to afford to fly and gain experience before they were 25.

At this rate, I don't expect to hit mainline until I am at least 35.

[North Shore]

At this rate, I don't expect to hit mainline until I am at least 35.

Ohh, noes! In the not-too-far-ago past, I ran into my initial PPL flight instructor in the concourse in YVR. He'd been at JAzz for ~5years at that point, and was looking at about the same before an upgrade, let alone a shot at mainline. As we are about the same age, he'd started at Jazz at ~ 35...

[plausiblyannonymous]

At this rate, I don't expect to hit mainline until I am at least 35.

Ohh, noes! In the not-too-far-ago past, I ran into my initial PPL flight instructor in the concourse in YVR. He'd been at JAzz for ~5years at that point, and was looking at about the same before an upgrade, let alone a shot at mainline. As we are about the same age, he'd started at Jazz at ~ 35...

Now lets throw into the picture the guys who are at 1500 hours who are passing me into WestJet mainline.

It's a bit of a slap in the face.

[lostaviator]

Encore pilots voted overwhelmingly in support of the contract which had the flow language in it. Did that language not have a “minimum” number of pilots per year with a “target” of maintaining a higher percentage?

If they’re following the contract, that you voted for, unfortunately it is out of WestJet pilots hands. This falls on you guys.

If they aren’t following the contract, there’s a process for that too.

[Bede]

Even without the one list, you’re seeing a mainline jet seat before the age of 25.

Are you kidding me? I don't know of anyone who got on at Encore before 23. Even then, I only know ONE person who started flying when they were 16 and were lucky enough to be able to afford to fly and gain experience before they were 25.

At this rate, I don't expect to hit mainline until I am at least 35.

I have flown with 2 FO's at mainline that were 25.

[WestJet Puke]

At this rate, I don't expect to hit mainline until I am at least 35.

Ohh, noes! In the not-too-far-ago past, I ran into my initial PPL flight instructor in the concourse in YVR. He'd been at JAzz for ~5years at that point, and was looking at about the same before an upgrade, let alone a shot at mainline. As we are about the same age, he'd started at Jazz at ~ 35...

Now lets throw into the picture the guys who are at 1500 hours who are passing me into WestJet mainline.

It's a bit of a slap in the face.

There are 0 1500 hour FOs at WestJet mainline.....

[Freeport_Flyer]

I think the hardest thing, and a lot of the frustration, for Encore pilots at the moment is the uncertainty and zero direction from leadership. If things were just finalized (One list, flow, Onex) then it would be a lot easier to make the decision to stay or go. Unfortunately there is no time horizon on any of those things other than "soon". So with that, you stay put and hope for the best or you jump ship expecting the worst. You could be right and all goes as planned at Westjet, or, you're right and you go to Air Canada, Sun Wing, Transat, etc...

The catch is the time-line to move on. If you stick around and it all goes pear shaped then you're a few months behind on your application than you would be if you started right... Now...

Good luck!

[lostaviator]

I think the hardest thing, and a lot of the frustration, for Encore pilots at the moment is the uncertainty and zero direction from leadership. If things were just finalized (One list, flow, Onex) then it would be a lot easier to make the decision to stay or go. Unfortunately there is no time horizon on any of those things other than "soon". So with that, you stay put and hope for the best or you jump ship expecting the worst. You could be right and all goes as planned at Westjet, or, you're right and you go to Air Canada, Sun Wing, Transat, etc...

The catch is the time-line to move on. If you stick around and it all goes pear shaped then you're a few months behind on your application than you would be if you started right... Now...

Good luck!

If you’re not happy with the leadership, change it. I believe you guys/gals just gave some members of your mec another mandate, so you can’t be THAT unhappy with the leadership.

The game you’re playing in regards to knowing when to jump ship is as difficult to solve as nailing the stock market. No one has the right answer, and if someone did, we would all be doing the same thing. Thousands and thousands of pilots have made the wrong call in the past, and some have made the right ones. If you’re already losing sleep over it, it might be a long career filled with many more sleepless night. This industry is as unpredictable as they come.

[Freeport_Flyer]

I think the hardest thing, and a lot of the frustration, for Encore pilots at the moment is the uncertainty and zero direction from leadership. If things were just finalized (One list, flow, Onex) then it would be a lot easier to make the decision to stay or go. Unfortunately there is no time horizon on any of those things other than "soon". So with that, you stay put and hope for the best or you jump ship expecting the worst. You could be right and all goes as planned at Westjet, or, you're right and you go to Air Canada, Sun Wing, Transat, etc...

The catch is the time-line to move on. If you stick around and it all goes pear shaped then you're a few months behind on your application than you would be if you started right... Now...

Good luck!

If you’re not happy with the leadership, change it. I believe you guys/gals just gave some members of your mec another mandate, so you can’t be THAT unhappy with the leadership.

The term leadership was all inclusive. Union and Management. From what I've heard the Union has been trying to get answers from the company but they are being put off or ignored. The company will do nothing in terms of operational decisions until after the Onex deal is done and there is nothing the union can really do about it. Again, frustration on all fronts.

[lostaviator]

Yea, about that. That isn’t something new since Onex happened. That’s just an excuse you’re being given and the way WJ has been doing business since the day a union started knocking on their door.

If the Union is telling you they can’t do anything for 1.9% of your salary, tell them to take a hike and get some guys in there with BALLS. If they can’t deal with WJ management in the current set-up, they definitely won’t be able to deal with businessmen who actually know what they’re doing (Onex)

[Yycjetdriver]

I think the hardest thing, and a lot of the frustration, for Encore pilots at the moment is the uncertainty and zero direction from leadership. If things were just finalized (One list, flow, Onex) then it would be a lot easier to make the decision to stay or go. Unfortunately there is no time horizon on any of those things other than "soon". So with that, you stay put and hope for the best or you jump ship expecting the worst. You could be right and all goes as planned at Westjet, or, you're right and you go to Air Canada, Sun Wing, Transat, etc...

The catch is the time-line to move on. If you stick around and it all goes pear shaped then you're a few months behind on your application than you would be if you started right... Now...

Good luck!

If AC or even AT calls then go! If mainline FO’s with 5+ years are leaving and some junior skippers too. There isn’t much hope things would improve enough to make it worth waiting around for an Encore pilot. That’s even if management would want to make those types of improvements, which it’s safe to assume they don’t.

[Mrbobmarly111]

Everyone please please please apply to AC asap. You'll be paid like a first year encore cpt as a FO on flat pay and after 4 years (or upgrade sooner) it goes up substantially (making over 100 grand depending on the type you are on). They have a real contract and a real pension plan. I would rather fly up north then commute for a job at weatjet. If you've been told no or you dont have the requirements then I understand. But otherwise please please please apply now. Help yourself. Stop making excuses get out now.

[plausiblyannonymous]

There are 0 1500 hour FOs at WestJet mainline.....

They are asking for a minimum of 1500 hours.

Can you guarantee that no mainline pilot was hired on at 1500 hours?

[goingnowherefast]

2000hrs has gotten at least one person hired and another an interview. I'm talking about WJ, not swamp either.

I don't work at WJ, I just know a couple candidates recently involved with the hiring process.

[tbayav8er]

So apparently, some of the junior Encore FO's who bid to Swoop when they first started up have now been awarded Mainline FO positions. In my opinion, that's brutal. The rest of us at Encore didn't bid to swoop because we wanted to support the mainline pilots by not bidding over to Swoop, and this is what we get. Those junior Encore FO's just jumped the line ahead of the entire Encore pilot group.

[Blue42]

So apparently, some of the junior Encore FO's who bid to Swoop when they first started up have now been awarded Mainline FO positions. In my opinion, that's brutal. The rest of us at Encore didn't bid to swoop because we wanted to support the mainline pilots by not bidding over to Swoop, and this is what we get. Those junior Encore FO's just jumped the line ahead of the entire Encore pilot group.

So why didn’t you bid over to mainline then? There were a couple Capts and 5 FOs that moved to mainline, all YYZ based. If you’re over 2 years you could’ve held a mainline spot, 4 years and you hold YYC.

And I’m not trying to be a dick but just curious, everyone has their reasons....

[tbayav8er]

Not quite. I've been at Encore for a little over 2 years, and I'm still more than 220 spots down the Encore list alone. This is also irrelevant, because management has shutdown flow from Encore to mainline, with no timeline in place to reinstate flow. The reason these people got a mainline spot who started around the same time as me is because they bid over to Swoop while the one list was still in tact. Since the Swoop pilots are now part of the same pilot list as mainline, those pilots that went to Swoop from Encore are near the top of the Swoop list, and therefore were able to bid successfully to mainline. The Swoop bid has been closed off to Encore pilots, as part of management shutting down flow, but even if I were to bid to Swoop (which I have no intention to ever do), I would start at the bottom of that list, and be 2 years lower on the pilot list than other guys who started at Encore the same time as me, who decided to bid over to Swoop, while the mainline pilots were still in arbitration. Anyways, I can complain until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, I just have to wait and see if I get a better job elsewhere. It's just BS though, and it's frustrating to see people who were willing to basically undercut WJ pilots while they were in arbitration get awarded for it.

[Blue42]

Not quite. I've been at Encore for a little over 2 years, and I'm still more than 220 spots down the Encore list alone. This is also irrelevant, because management has shutdown flow from Encore to mainline, with no timeline in place to reinstate flow. The reason these people got a mainline spot who started around the same time as me is because they bid over to Swoop while the one list was still in tact. Since the Swoop pilots are now part of the same pilot list as mainline, those pilots that went to Swoop from Encore are near the top of the Swoop list, and therefore were able to bid successfully to mainline. The Swoop bid has been closed off to Encore pilots, as part of management shutting down flow, but even if I were to bid to Swoop (which I have no intention to ever do), I would start at the bottom of that list, and be 2 years lower on the pilot list than other guys who started at Encore the same time as me, who decided to bid over to Swoop, while the mainline pilots were still in arbitration. Anyways, I can complain until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, I just have to wait and see if I get a better job elsewhere. It's just BS though, and it's frustrating to see people who were willing to basically undercut WJ pilots while they were in arbitration get awarded for it.

Gotcha.....forgot about the flow part not happening right now. With planned over 200 new hires next year at mainline I’m sure it’ll start up again. Hopefully sooner then later....