One List

[skyhighh]

Once again, I don't have an issue with flow, but to transfer ones DOH from a regional to a mainline is not only contrary to industry standard, it's counterproductive. Look at the mess it's already created. I hope those who pushed for this one-list concept in the beginning, now have enough humility to see the errors of their ways.

Once again, someone doesn't seem to get it. The one list + flow is a great idea. You can take pilots with low (now) experience, bring them to standard, and then the flow to the "major" will be done seamlessly with experienced knowledgeable pilots. Lower experience = lower pay which is fair and once at mainline you have your spot and everything increases from there. Plus it is way easier to negotiate if both groups are one... So from a true one list it is a lot easier to build on.

It's not industry standard, I 100% agree. But it's time to evolve. The industry standard has been crap for many decades and nobody has ever been happy with it. Let's change this. The only reason it's a mess right now is because some guys are trying to step on the others using weak arguments. When we got hired we got told how it was... now some are looking for opportunities to get ahead. It's sad and unfortunate.

D-2.

[plausiblyannonymous]

Once again, I don't have an issue with flow, but to transfer ones DOH from a regional to a mainline is not only contrary to industry standard, it's counterproductive. Look at the mess it's already created. I hope those who pushed for this one-list concept in the beginning, now have enough humility to see the errors of their ways.

Once again, someone doesn't seem to get it. The one list + flow is a great idea. You can take pilots with low (now) experience, bring them to standard, and then the flow to the "major" will be done seamlessly with experienced knowledgeable pilots. Lower experience = lower pay which is fair and once at mainline you have your spot and everything increases from there. Plus it is way easier to negotiate if both groups are one... So from a true one list it is a lot easier to build on.

It's not industry standard, I 100% agree. But it's time to evolve. The industry standard has been crap for many decades and nobody has ever been happy with it. Let's change this. The only reason it's a mess right now is because some guys are trying to step on the others using weak arguments. When we got hired we got told how it was... now some are looking for opportunities to get ahead. It's sad and unfortunate.

D-2.

That's not the way he wants it to work. He's trying to say that we should all get on our knees and work our asses off, then come to mainline as an OTS pilot with five times as much experience as the current OTS hires.

[cloak]

...It's not industry standard, I 100% agree. But it's time to evolve. The industry standard has been crap for many decades and nobody has ever been happy with it. Let's change this. The only reason it's a mess right now is because some guys are trying to step on the others using weak arguments...

The seniority system in general is not ideal, but while it's being used elsewhere in the industry, to arbitrarily change it in one carrier puts those pilots at a disadvantage. Instead of using WJ seniority to make Encore more appealing, its wawcon should be brought closer to industry standard. This further proves that if one group ventures off too far from the rest of the pack, it puts itself into unnecessary challenges.

The one list is a mess because it doesn't coincide with logical progression. It doesn't make sense to have pilots flying as FOs on the dash to be senior to FOs on the B737 with much more experience on the machine, ready to upgrade, but held back due to an arbitrary system that makes no sense. It's unfortunate that it will negatively impact some, but that promise should have never been made. Voting for this PTA will only delay the inevitable while making the problem bigger. If there is going to be a seniority, and it seems like it is, it can only be based on date of hire.

[cloak]

That's not the way he wants it to work. He's trying to say that we should all get on our knees and work our asses off, then come to mainline as an OTS pilot with five times as much experience as the current OTS hires.

I don't know how old you are or how much flying experience, or life experience for that matter, you have, so my apologies in advance if you are a seasoned individual. Also not sure if this style of arguing is new and trendy, however I agree with the other poster that before Encore EVERYONE at WESTJET was an "OTS" as some say. And Encore is not the measuring stick of piloting, so easy with OTS innuendos!

[sarg]

Once again, I don't have an issue with flow, but to transfer ones DOH from a regional to a mainline is not only contrary to industry standard, it's counterproductive. Look at the mess it's already created. I hope those who pushed for this one-list concept in the beginning, now have enough humility to see the errors of their ways.

Once again, someone doesn't seem to get it. The one list + flow is a great idea. You can take pilots with low (now) experience, bring them to standard, and then the flow to the "major" will be done seamlessly with experienced knowledgeable pilots. Lower experience = lower pay which is fair and once at mainline you have your spot and everything increases from there. Plus it is way easier to negotiate if both groups are one... So from a true one list it is a lot easier to build on.

It's not industry standard, I 100% agree. But it's time to evolve. The industry standard has been crap for many decades and nobody has ever been happy with it. Let's change this. The only reason it's a mess right now is because some guys are trying to step on the others using weak arguments. When we got hired we got told how it was... now some are looking for opportunities to get ahead. It's sad and unfortunate.

D-2.

One list + 100% flow is a great idea, anything less than 100% flow is going to all but guarantee future strife. I'm not sure how you figure there will be easier negotiations, there are 3 separate companies with 2 separate bargaining units, that just happen share 1 seniority list if the PTA passes. You may be right about it being time to evolve, but I think that the company is the one that needs to evolve by voluntarily recognizing that all pilot employed by the WestJet group of companies would be better served as a common bargaining unit. One MEC negotiates a new combined CBA, put in experience requirements on equipment if necessary and truly move on as one group.

The " when we got hired we got told how it was" argument is weak, there are lots of pilot who got told Calgary was their base and all their flying would be out of Calgary. They made life decisions based on that promise and are now commuting to Toronto to have the left seat they were promised would be in Calgary. So, yes thing change and we all have to deal with the new realities whatever they might be.

[cloak]

One list + 100% flow is a great idea, anything less than 100% flow is going to all but guarantee future strife...

Bingo! That is exactly it. Anything less than 100% flow is bound to create problems. That is why the one list doesn't work. Flow to BOTL is the only way, which by the way also works with 100% flow.

[Gerry Schwartz]

.

[cloak]

You sound a lot like an Encore pilot that also likes long posts! I'll try to be brief. Firstly, if you want to debate, never mind others' motives, argue for your points and perspective, no use attacking others. People often find things to complain about and threaten to quit, etc. But they will calm down once they logically weigh the merits of the situation. And the fact is, promises or not, the situation has changed with certification, and further complicated by Onex sale. More consolidation is quite likely which makes a non DOH seniority even more complicated for WJ pilots.

As for bump down, it is doubtful any WJ pilot wants to bump down to Encore. No one at WestJet wanted those positions when it started. Plus if there are that many lay-offs to bump into Swoop, then Encore, it just may be a sinking ship. Without this PTA the cash for option may or may not be as good or better. But what does that or the fact that is tied to PTA say? And as for whipsaw, the real protection is in scope which exists now.

Instead of WJ seniority to make Encore more appealing, its wawcon must be improved. And that is the job of its own MEC and the corporation, not WestJet pilots. Reserved seniority on another airline is not going to solve their recruitment challenges. Encore wawcon is still far behind its competitors, Jazz, Porter and Sky. That has been masked by the one list and lure of a WJ seniority number. Without one, it will have to do better to attract pilots. And even with a NO vote, Encore will still have guaranteed flow, and top-up pay, which is much better than other regionals.

[Gerry Schwartz]

Voting now closed.

[Mostly Harmless]

[cloak]

Didn't realize brevity was a requirement for this board! One of the biggest complaints with the last One List vote was that there were no bump down provisions for lay-offs. Now we have them. Maybe the cash for stock options isn't good enough for you for a PTA, but we won't get a higher cash value for our stock options at a later date. I wasn't attacking you, but if your motives are self serving it is helpful to know. I think this PTA is good for the pilot group as a whole. But it would be good for me too as it improves my chances of actually getting the option for Capt on a WB before I have to retire. WB growth is good for every pilot at WJ though. Growth at Swoop or jets at the regional level don't help us.

So it's ok for you to be selfish for your WB prospect or your Encore buddies, but not others?!! Good to know. This PTA doesn't improve the prospect of WB command for WJ pilots. The option money isn't good either when you factor in tax treatment, and bundling it, makes it even worse.

As for RJs, they are already in the CBA, so they will probably end up somewhere, but without this PTA and WJ seniority numbers, it makes it less likely because at Encore or elsewhere, at least they will have to pay them industry standard. This is why many are voting NO.

[Hangry]

Encoretears.png (857.45 KiB) Viewed 3589 times

[elite]

... Look at the mess it's already created. I hope those who pushed for this one-list concept in the beginning, now have enough humility to see the errors of their ways.

Good point! Are they? Or are they still pushing for it?! Imagine if ACPA MEC presented a proposal to add Jazz and Sky to Air Canada's seniority list based on their DOH?! Be a very short meeting and a short tenure for those executives!!

They too need those smaller planes to fill their big WBs (which they have many more). They have flow too, to the BOTL, AFTER an interview; yet have no problems filling those ground schools. No recruitment issues there! The corporation, whose job it is to do that, does it well!

....it was really sleazy of management to tie WJ pilots compensation to the Encore PTA...

Is it all them? not hard to follow the trail of resolutions, etc. How good is this deal for WestJet pilots and why is it being done in direct violation of ALPA bylaws in regards to seniority? Did you notice that it can't be changed? So the previous vote could, but not this one?! Interesting...

[elite]

combined.

[Yycjetdriver]

Didn't realize brevity was a requirement for this board! One of the biggest complaints with the last One List vote was that there were no bump down provisions for lay-offs. Now we have them. Maybe the cash for stock options isn't good enough for you for a PTA, but we won't get a higher cash value for our stock options at a later date. I wasn't attacking you, but if your motives are self serving it is helpful to know. I think this PTA is good for the pilot group as a whole. But it would be good for me too as it improves my chances of actually getting the option for Capt on a WB before I have to retire. WB growth is good for every pilot at WJ though. Growth at Swoop or jets at the regional level don't help us.

The worst kept secret is that RJ’s coming. I’ve heard announcement in February. However they’re not going to Encore, Swoop, or WESTJET. Consensus is they’ll be operate by a company that already has RJ experience on many levels and is looking for new work. Not hard to guess who that is. I imagine at a fraction of the cost it would take to start up an RJ program at any of the companies in the WJ group.
I guess the bigger question or issue is what will happen with this PTA if/when Onex sells Encore and all it’s feeder flying?
They don’t have to look far to see how that can be a cheaper method of hub and spoke flying.

[sarg]

cloak & sarg,

If you actually want harmony and no 'strife' in WJ and you are not making you argument solely for you own self betterment, then, while I applaud you, you are missing the big picture. While your ideas of 100% flow to BOTL or somehow grandfathering Encore pilots while still voting NO are rational ones, they are made in a vacuum. Neither of you have provided any suggestion on what should happen with Swoop. You make the assumption that everything will remain status quo with a NO vote. This is NOT the case.

If we were setting up an airline agreement from scratch, sure! 100% flow from the regional to BOTL of mainline would be a great idea. But we're not coming at this with a blank sheet of paper. For better or for worse (because it is a marriage of sort!) we have 700 or so pilots whose lives will be affected by this vote. If that is truly how you want to set things up in the future, this can only be done via a YES vote. The fact is that the company is not in a position to flow 100% from Encore and only hire to Encore.

Outside of the ethical arguments which I've outlined and you've suggested are 'weak', the fact remains that alienating the Encore pilot group and voting to remove the seniority they have will have a significant negative impact on our prospects at WJ. Case in point, sarg used the examples of the company taking away ports. While it is not a direct comparison, ask any of our YWG or YHZ pilots how they feel about losing their ports and they are still F*%king pissed off at the company years later. And that's just for having to commute more often!

If you read the PTA, the key sections not only provide us WJ pilots with bump down and lay off protection, but also the ability to go to Encore and keep our YOS. It provides certainty on seniority provisions AND offers a means to amend the provisions. It does this in a way that grandfathers the Encore pilots. Therefore, every single change that needs to get made going forward does so with the two pilot groups working together against the company. Maybe there is an argument to change the way seniority is distributed to new hires at Encore as compared to WJ/Swoop. Maybe there is a way to better allocate pilot resources. Maybe the company decides that it wants to open a YHZ base for Encore and suddenly WJ FOs think: "actually, that'll save me a commute". These are all types of things that the pilot groups can, if everyone's seniority is reserved/grandfathered (whatever you want to call it) can work in unison on.

If not, take that anger and frustration that our guys feel towards the company for changing their ports. Personally, I think guys are overreacting about losing their ports, but it doesn't matter what I think, the reality is that guys are pissed years and years later. Now, think of how the Encore pilots will react if we take away their seniority when we have the opportunity to protect it. Whether you think their anger is warranted or not doesn't really matter, the fact is that they will be angry and they, rightly so, will negotiate with the company in a way that will benefit only them and have strong negative impacts on us. I personally wouldn't blame them, but having divided pilot groups negotiating against each other will be detrimental to all.

So, if you really want to decrease the 'strife' at WJ, the only way to do so is to vote YES. Having the two pilot groups negotiating in unison against the company by having the current Encore pilot's seniority protected is BY FAR the best way to improve conditions and career advancement for us, generally, at WJ. Just like a No vote, the status quo will not remain the same just because of a YES vote. There will be different factors that come up and that need to be addressed. When the WJPA agreement discussing flow was made, Swoop was nothing more than a Gregg and Camshaft's wet dream. Now it's the reality. For the most part, WJ and Encore pilots have been unified in avoiding Swoop's pathetic WAWCONS. Do you think that will remain? And if there are further changes and surprises in the future, would you want the pilot groups working together, or against each other to fight the company if they try to pull further BS ideas like Swoop?

If your sole purpose is in your own self interest because you want to jump the Encore pilots for your own personal seniority, shame on you for suggesting all these reasons why you don't think the PTA will work. However, if the true purpose of your posts is that you honestly want a seniority system that will facilitate a proper staffing and career advancement for all of us at WJ and the WestJet Group of Companies, then the only way to see that through is with a YES vote. If you truly want what you outline in your posts, you need to vote YES. A NO vote won't get us any closer to common employer. This isn't a blueprint for a new airline. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If we negatively effect the seniority of 450 Encore pilots, how do you think they will react at the negotiating table? Voting NO will bite us all in the ass.

Gerry,

Just to make things clear the only difference a Yes or No vote will make to me is the amount of the value (read extra money) that I get for my options, which quite frankly I could care less about. I would rather that money be used to improve WAWCON at Encore. You do seem like you're hoping for personal gain out of the vote however. I said nothing about ports, I said Calgary base, before ports WestJet was a 1 base airline. Then ports came, then multiple bases and ports cancelled.

There will be no status quo no matter the vote outcome, things will change they always do. If Onex or a different new owner want RJ's at Encore that will happen whether there is a PTA in place or not. There will be regional feed into the WestJet network with or without the PTA, with or without Encore being owned by the WestJet group of companies. So, in your view of the world what happens to 500 Encore pilots that have reserved seniority on WestJet mainline if Onex decides that best way to proceed is by selling Encore of with a CPA? The PTA is subject to a cancellation clause enforceable by any signatory, do you think if the pilot shortage reversed tomorrow that company might not cancel the PTA effecting those same 500 pilots just so they wouldn't have to guarantee flow? The best thing for the Encore pilots is to be able to make a decision about their career path that is as clean as possible, that means not having a portion of the path controlled by some other group, that means no PTA. Is it going to hurt, yes but it makes things clean as of today and keeps it clean going forward. Onex buys Sunwing to merge with WestJet the Sunwing pilots are going to expect a clean DOH merger with WestJet pilots not pilots of a third party in the mix. What happens to the feelings of those 500 Encore pilots + the 180 pilots that have flowed in 2 years or 10 years time when they "loose" the seniority they thought they had? What made sense at 1 point in time doesn't always make sense at different point in time.

Swoop pilots are part of the WestJet MEC, if Swoop still exists in 3 years time I expect the MEC to bring their WAWCON to the same standards as the WestJet pilots.

[plausiblyannonymous]

Encoretears.png

Wow, you are an asshole.

How long have you been at mainline... sixteen months? Are you afraid that you will go down the seniority list?

[cloak]

... If Onex or a different new owner want RJ's at Encore that will happen whether there is a PTA in place or not. There will be regional feed into the WestJet network with or without the PTA, with or without Encore being owned by the WestJet group of companies. So, in your view of the world what happens to 500 Encore pilots that have reserved seniority on WestJet mainline if Onex decides that best way to proceed is by selling Encore of with a CPA? The PTA is subject to a cancellation clause enforceable by any signatory, do you think if the pilot shortage reversed tomorrow that company might not cancel the PTA effecting those same 500 pilots just so they wouldn't have to guarantee flow? The best thing for the Encore pilots is to be able to make a decision about their career path that is as clean as possible, that means not having a portion of the path controlled by some other group, that means no PTA. Is it going to hurt, yes but it makes things clean as of today and keeps it clean going forward. Onex buys Sunwing to merge with WestJet the Sunwing pilots are going to expect a clean DOH merger with WestJet pilots not pilots of a third party in the mix. What happens to the feelings of those 500 Encore pilots + the 180 pilots that have flowed in 2 years or 10 years time when they "loose" the seniority they thought they had? What made sense at 1 point in time doesn't always make sense at different point in time.

Swoop pilots are part of the WestJet MEC, if Swoop still exists in 3 years time I expect the MEC to bring their WAWCON to the same standards as the WestJet pilots.

You bring many good points! Thank you for that.

If it's in the CBA, it is likely to happen. WestJet has already lost those 50 RJs. With WJ seniority, it will make it very cheap to operate them at Encore. Without this PTA, at least they'll have to pay industry standard. And then there's the issue of Encore sale which also is likely.

Same with more mergers, which let's face it, is quite likely. And Sunwing is a prime candidate. Merging non DOH seniority lists with reserved seniority is a mess with years of expensive and stressful litigation. One thing not sure about, is the cancellation. If there is a grandfather clause once voted in, it will make things very complicated.

And you are right, it's not worth the stress that it causes everyone, including Encore pilots. This affects everyone, including the very senior group, for future mergers. This PTA will be bad for WestJet and Encore pilots and the industry in general. And the longer it lingers on, the longer the stress and wrangling....

[Mostly Harmless]

So what you are saying is;

WJ is going to give RJ's to Encore, the company that has "hard landed" 3, or is it 4, Dash 8's.

OR;

Subcontract the worst 705 operator in Canada to fly RJ's.

What could possibly go wrong with that plan?

In a day or two it won't matter as the vote will close and the issue never be revisited again regardless of the outcome.

[Reinforcer]

I cannot quite understand how a reasonable person could argue in favour of a one-list between these two pilot groups.

Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.

As I said in my earlier post, encore really needs to work on improving its WAWCON instead of worrying about a seniority list on a different company. However, I still stand by my argument that those hired pre May 2019 should be honoured their spot on the list.