Sunwing hires Swoop

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flyinhigh
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Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by flyinhigh » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:28 am

So now “Westjet Pilots” will be flying aircraft for their direct competitor. I.e, lets partner with Westjet Vacations direcT competitor.

What will the mangers come up with next.

I feel bad for you folks. The powers that be are clueless.

https://www.skiesmag.com/press-releases ... l-options/
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Last edited by flyinhigh on Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

flyinhigh
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by flyinhigh » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:29 am

Dp
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by TSAM » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:38 am

Maybe WS mgmt realizes what a waste Swoop is and is hoping SW will buy em up rather than shut it down at a loss.
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cloak
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by cloak » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:11 pm

Boy, if only people read before they posted, but admittedly anyone, informed or not, can share their views.

At any rate, this deal is great for Swoop and WestJet Group because they get to sell seats to their competitor, meaning they get money from their competitor! What can be bad about that?! Sunwing, in its wisdom, realized there was no point duplicating lift from areas where demand was thin and piggy-backed on Swoop, everyone wins, including consumers. Otherwise, they may not have had as much choice from those places.
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BBQ Chips
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by BBQ Chips » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:43 pm

I would venture a guess that SW is still expanding, short on airplanes due to the winter program not including the Max, and went to the lowest bidder. Too bad it’s to a B scale company.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by GoHomeLeg » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:16 pm

BBQ Chips wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:43 pm
I would venture a guess that SW is still expanding, short on airplanes due to the winter program not including the Max, and went to the lowest bidder. Too bad it’s to a B scale company.
This is expansion to test a new markets where demand is not yet gauged. Sunwing has used Mexican ULCAs in the past out of new Canadian gateways to test the market. The MAX flying is covered with securement of additional dry lease aircraft. It's just a shock to hear it is with a Canadian competitor.
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Last edited by GoHomeLeg on Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

altiplano
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:50 pm

At first glance you shake your head... why not feed your own airline (Westjet) to the same destinations?

But Westjet management will be able to scoop tons of intel on booking trends and numbers of a competitor, this deal won't last long... like when Westjet partnered with Transat and pulled the rug out on Southern flight partnership to just go do it themselves after they saw how demand was and to where, 8 or 10 years ago or whatever it was.

I would be looking at my contract though if I'm a WS pilot... how does scope apply here?

I'm surprised Sunwing is taking the bait... Flair I could see or maybe Porter to a limited extent... but sharing this type of data with a competitor like Westjet seems reckless... or maybe they're desperate.
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ant_321
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by ant_321 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:55 pm

The agreement is less than 200 seats a week during the winter season. A handful of seats on flights from a few smaller airports that are not serviced or under serviced by Sunwing. Not exactly earth shattering news.
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3down&loct
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by 3down&loct » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:21 pm

Schwartz positioning to buy Sunwing.
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cloak
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by cloak » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:00 pm

altiplano wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:50 pm
At first glance you shake your head... why not feed your own airline (Westjet) to the same destinations?

But Westjet management will be able to scoop tons of intel on booking trends and numbers of a competitor, this deal won't last long... like when Westjet partnered with Transat and pulled the rug out on Southern flight partnership to just go do it themselves after they saw how demand was and to where, 8 or 10 years ago or whatever it was.

I would be looking at my contract though if I'm a WS pilot... how does scope apply here?

I'm surprised Sunwing is taking the bait... Flair I could see or maybe Porter to a limited extent... but sharing this type of data with a competitor like Westjet seems reckless... or maybe they're desperate.
I would posit that these assertions are unlikely.
First off, why would WS pilots concern themselves with scope? They are getting to fly the competitor's passengers on their own airline's planes.
And Porter flying to Mexico for a few passengers from SW, on a Dash8?!!
Sharing what intel? Passenger numbers without yield is useless! Lol I know Air Canada sends people sitting at the gates counting passengers, but useless info!
And lastly, this is likely anything but short lived!
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by CXALE » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:48 pm

The head of Swoop flight ops is the former Sunwing Chief Pilot, probably that helped.
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altiplano
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:11 pm

cloak wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:00 pm
altiplano wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:50 pm
At first glance you shake your head... why not feed your own airline (Westjet) to the same destinations?

But Westjet management will be able to scoop tons of intel on booking trends and numbers of a competitor, this deal won't last long... like when Westjet partnered with Transat and pulled the rug out on Southern flight partnership to just go do it themselves after they saw how demand was and to where, 8 or 10 years ago or whatever it was.

I would be looking at my contract though if I'm a WS pilot... how does scope apply here?

I'm surprised Sunwing is taking the bait... Flair I could see or maybe Porter to a limited extent... but sharing this type of data with a competitor like Westjet seems reckless... or maybe they're desperate.
I would posit that all your assertions are wrong!
First off, why would WS pilots concern themselves with scope? They are getting to fly the competitor's passengers on their own airline's planes.
And Porter flying to Mexico for a few passengers from SW, on a Dash8?!!
Sharing what intel? Passenger numbers without yield is useless and some thing that Air Canada does! Lol sitting at the gates counting passengers, useless info!
And lastly, this is likely anything but short lived!
Maybe I misunderstood. I thought this was a situation where it was mostly feed to Sunwing. I see smSwoop does some Southern flying too in the deal. Were it feeding Sunwing, that's where WS ALPA should concern themselves with scope. Still, I would monitor it very closely. Westjet is the dominant player in this deal, I wouldn't want someone growing flying at my expense with some kind of end run.

Porter flying to Mexico? Of course not, as I said feed. Feeding Sunwing. They need to fill planes and hotels. That's what this about. Feeding Sunwing some small markets.

Numbers without yield is useless?

Tell that to the captain of the Westjet corporate espionage team, counting loads on AC's employee travel site to develop their entire early route structure.

Tell that to Westjet marketing that just took over and started selling their own tickets themselves on flights they were doing for Transat the previous years.

We'll see how long this runs... I think I'd put a 1 year half life on it... ie. 50% chance it goes longer than 1 year, 25% chance longer than 2, 12.5% chance longer than 3... etc...
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ant_321
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by ant_321 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:32 pm

altiplano wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:11 pm
cloak wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:00 pm
altiplano wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:50 pm
At first glance you shake your head... why not feed your own airline (Westjet) to the same destinations?

But Westjet management will be able to scoop tons of intel on booking trends and numbers of a competitor, this deal won't last long... like when Westjet partnered with Transat and pulled the rug out on Southern flight partnership to just go do it themselves after they saw how demand was and to where, 8 or 10 years ago or whatever it was.

I would be looking at my contract though if I'm a WS pilot... how does scope apply here?

I'm surprised Sunwing is taking the bait... Flair I could see or maybe Porter to a limited extent... but sharing this type of data with a competitor like Westjet seems reckless... or maybe they're desperate.
I would posit that all your assertions are wrong!
First off, why would WS pilots concern themselves with scope? They are getting to fly the competitor's passengers on their own airline's planes.
And Porter flying to Mexico for a few passengers from SW, on a Dash8?!!
Sharing what intel? Passenger numbers without yield is useless and some thing that Air Canada does! Lol sitting at the gates counting passengers, useless info!
And lastly, this is likely anything but short lived!
Maybe I misunderstood. I thought this was a situation where it was mostly feed to Sunwing. I see smSwoop does some Southern flying too in the deal. Were it feeding Sunwing, that's where WS ALPA should concern themselves with scope. Still, I would monitor it very closely. Westjet is the dominant player in this deal, I wouldn't want someone growing flying at my expense with some kind of end run.

Porter flying to Mexico? Of course not, as I said feed. Feeding Sunwing. They need to fill planes and hotels. That's what this about. Feeding Sunwing some small markets.

Numbers without yield is useless?

Tell that to the captain of the Westjet corporate espionage team, counting loads on AC's employee travel site to develop their entire early route structure.

Tell that to Westjet marketing that just took over and started selling their own tickets themselves on flights they were doing for Transat the previous years.

We'll see how long this runs... I think I'd put a 1 year half life on it... ie. 50% chance it goes longer than 1 year, 25% chance longer than 2, 12.5% chance longer than 3... etc...
I certainly wouldn’t doubt westjet having other motives but this deal wouldn’t give them a whole lot of info to use for planning. The deal is just Sunwing buying a few seats on certain swoop flights, not chartering the whole airplane. The total will be less than 200 seats per week during the peak season.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by George Taylor » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:16 pm

Me thinks the deal stinks, and Swoop can't fill their own airplanes by themselves.
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Hangry
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by Hangry » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:29 pm

George Taylor wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:16 pm
Me thinks the deal stinks, and Swoop can't fill their own airplanes by themselves.
Exactly.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by JBI » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:05 pm

delete - double post.
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Last edited by JBI on Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by JBI » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:05 pm

cloak wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:00 pm
And lastly, this is likely anything but short lived!
Read the yammer post with respect to the length of the deal.
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cloak
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by cloak » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:00 pm

altiplano wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:11 pm

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought this was a situation where it was mostly feed to Sunwing. I see smSwoop does some Southern flying too in the deal. Were it feeding Sunwing, that's where WS ALPA should concern themselves with scope. Still, I would monitor it very closely. Westjet is the dominant player in this deal, I wouldn't want someone growing flying at my expense with some kind of end run.

Porter flying to Mexico? Of course not, as I said feed. Feeding Sunwing. They need to fill planes and hotels. That's what this about. Feeding Sunwing some small markets.

Numbers without yield is useless?

Tell that to the captain of the Westjet corporate espionage team, counting loads on AC's employee travel site to develop their entire early route structure....
Yes that assumption is incorrect. This is not to feed Sunwing, rather to carry their passengers for them. It's good for them because it allows them to have lift somewhere where the market is too thin. It's good for Swoop, because it boosts their already strong sales to Sun, and it's good for consumers because it gives them more options and frequency. It's a win win solution.

I wouldn't call WestJet the "dominant" player as SW has about the same market share in Sun destinations. It's about a 4 way split between these two and Rouge and Transat. With the proposed merger of the latters, the market balance will be shifting likely requiring divesture of assets of AC/TS in this market, second to the Atlantic where more significant divesture of routes and slots can be envisioned.

That is also why, with consolidation in the market, that this partnership could potentially expand to become more permanent in some form. Another such consolidation could be in the regional market with possible CPA agreements.

Speaking of corporate espionage, it was clear that both AC and WS were "spying" on each other which is why it was settled. Any data that could have been gleaned from any employee travel website, wasn't really confidential or helpful. Counting passengers, something that AC does on its competitors on a regular basis, without more details on yield, is honestly a total waste of time.
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boeingboy
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by boeingboy » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:57 am

I wouldn't call WestJet the "dominant" player as SW has about the same market share in Sun destinations. It's about a 4 way split between these two and Rouge and Transat.
I don't know that I would consider it a 4 way split...Sunwing is the clear leader in this case.

While AC and WestJet both have their "vacation" arms - it's not exactly the same as Sunwing - their closest direct competitor is/was Transat. Sunwing airlines does not sell tickets. The only reason they exist is to serve their hotels and properties. The don't fly point to point anywhere - only to places they have properties. It's kind of a unique situation they are in. With a fleet of up to 44 aircraft and up to 140 flights a day - it's exclusively "vacation" travel.

I really don't know what to make of this whole situation. Sunwing had a limited run with Viva Aerobus a few years ago - which I suspect is what this is....still, I don't think it's the smartest thing in the world to share your business with your domestic competition. It would be akin to Westjet vacations offering trips to Frankfurt.....and using seats on Air Canada. :rolleyes:
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altiplano
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:36 am

cloak wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:00 pm
altiplano wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:11 pm

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought this was a situation where it was mostly feed to Sunwing. I see smSwoop does some Southern flying too in the deal. Were it feeding Sunwing, that's where WS ALPA should concern themselves with scope. Still, I would monitor it very closely. Westjet is the dominant player in this deal, I wouldn't want someone growing flying at my expense with some kind of end run.

Porter flying to Mexico? Of course not, as I said feed. Feeding Sunwing. They need to fill planes and hotels. That's what this about. Feeding Sunwing some small markets.

Numbers without yield is useless?

Tell that to the captain of the Westjet corporate espionage team, counting loads on AC's employee travel site to develop their entire early route structure....
Yes that assumption is incorrect. This is not to feed Sunwing, rather to carry their passengers for them. It's good for them because it allows them to have lift somewhere where the market is too thin. It's good for Swoop, because it boosts their already strong sales to Sun, and it's good for consumers because it gives them more options and frequency. It's a win win solution.

I wouldn't call WestJet the "dominant" player as SW has about the same market share in Sun destinations. It's about a 4 way split between these two and Rouge and Transat. With the proposed merger of the latters, the market balance will be shifting likely requiring divesture of assets of AC/TS in this market, second to the Atlantic where more significant divesture of routes and slots can be envisioned.

That is also why, with consolidation in the market, that this partnership could potentially expand to become more permanent in some form. Another such consolidation could be in the regional market with possible CPA agreements.

Speaking of corporate espionage, it was clear that both AC and WS were "spying" on each other which is why it was settled. Any data that could have been gleaned from any employee travel website, wasn't really confidential or helpful. Counting passengers, something that AC does on its competitors on a regular basis, without more details on yield, is honestly a total waste of time.
I disagree. It is feed, feeding their hotel and vacation packages.

WS clearly is the larger airline of the 2, they have a far larger fleet, a regional feed network.

This is the way they figured it this time, and we'll see how it goes. I think it smells of desperation to let the fox in.

Re:divesture -
We will see... AC won't keep duplication on all the sun routes and even if it did, it wouldn't hold a majority or monopoly, you won't see much dumped beyond what they already don't want. On the Atlantic it's open skies anyway, not many slot limited airports in Transat's route structure. Dozens of operators can access that flying, but don't... Westjet or Condor or Norwegian or Ryanair or Easyjet or Air Italy could go into any of Transat's routes tomorrow if they had the will...

Re:espionage -
It was a settlement for Westjet to PAY AND APOLIGIZE, and AC donated the $20 million it to charity. Data from a password protected site for employees is clearly confidential. There was no guilt on AC.

But if AC is wasting it's time as you say, I don't know if they do it, but if they are what do you care? Clearly they aren't at every gate doing it. Maybe it's one route here or there they are trying to get a feel on...
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by Fanblade » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:06 am

altiplano wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:36 am

Speaking of corporate espionage, it was clear that both AC and WS were "spying" on each other which is why it was settled. Any data that could have been gleaned from any employee travel website, wasn't really confidential or helpful. Counting passengers, something that AC does on its competitors on a regular basis, without more details on yield, is honestly a total waste of time.
All competing companies monitor each other. Superstore pays people to price check Walmart. Walmart pays people to price check Superstore. They also count the number of people entering. This is the norm and considered fair game in the competition world. All companies are permitted to access anything already open to the public.

What isn’t fair game is to access information considered private. Which is what MH did.

For what it’s worth the information gathered was used to plan WJ’s move from YHM to YYZ at a time that AC was very vulnerable to total failure. You shouldn’t try to minimize or normalize the behaviour. It reflects poorly on both you and WJ.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by Realitychex » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:43 am

Memories and timeline history sure fade over time..........

Not sure now load info, without corresponding yield info, acquired by an overactive automated program designed by a bored, under employed computer programmer, over a 9 month window beginning in the fall of 2002 had any bearing on the development of WJ’s route network from 1996 onwards.

Losing $700,000 a month operating shorthaul from YHM, together with MLB’s latest foray at YYZ was incentive enough to move. WJ was already operating longer haul into both YHM and YYZ at the time.

Everything WJ needed to know to launch sched sun was learned from Transat charter flying and trans border data which was, and still is, freely available via Form 41 to any and all.

Slam dunk cases aren’t settled on courthouse steps with large donations to WJ’s head honchos personal charity of choice, especially when the complainant was facing an imminent contempt of court reprimand for not providing documents in connection with a counter suit for the better part of 6 months. Who knows, and frankly, who cares what would have been uncovered in that case. What ever it was, it was enough to result in a very quick settlement.

The charity got the money. They weren’t particularly concerned where it came from.

As for Swoop / Sunwing, think bigger picture, folks.

8)
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by boeingboy » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:58 pm

As for Swoop / Sunwing, think bigger picture, folks.
Sorry - what do you think the bigger picture is?

Sunwing buys Swoop - or the other way around?
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by kiaszceski » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:24 pm

Think like an investor.
AC has now his "vacations branch" with Transat
Westjet as the second largest airline company in Canada needs to have its own branch otherwise they will lose the market.
One way or the other I think Swoop will be the new Sunwing.
The only difference between the pay rate is the minimum guaranteed. I guess ALPA would make it work...

The upsides are various and interesting especially if Swoop/Sunwing keeps the TUI agreement in Europe. It will make Westjet known abroad.
Time will tell!
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by telex » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:35 pm

Westjet and Sunwing route maps.

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