737 to 787 Upgrade Times

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Sky_Conqueror
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737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Sky_Conqueror » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:38 pm

Greetings to everyone!

With the the growth plans and recent acquisition by ONEX, i was curious to know what one could expect for the length of time from 737 equipment to 787 upgrade bid? I’ve tried to dig through previous posts, couldn’t find anything. Thanks guys! Info much appreciated:)

Cheers
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:02 pm

Don't ask a question you don't want the answer to.

If you haven't been at WestJet for fifteen years yet, you don't stand a chance.

If you want to fly the 787, go to Air Canada.
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Freeport_Flyer
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Freeport_Flyer » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:18 pm

Or Eva Airways is hiring non-typed 787 FOs on commuting contracts...
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fish4life
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by fish4life » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:29 pm

For those of us curious though, I get the left seat being 15 years but what about the right seat of the 87?
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cjet
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by cjet » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:47 pm

That is 15 years for FO 787.
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Blue42
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Blue42 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:36 pm

fish4life wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:29 pm
For those of us curious though, I get the left seat being 15 years but what about the right seat of the 87?
The junior 787 FO on the last bid was 11 years. On the 767 it’s 8 years.

Junior Capt on the 787 is 20 years...
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Blue42
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Blue42 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:37 pm

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:02 pm
Don't ask a question you don't want the answer to.

If you haven't been at WestJet for fifteen years yet, you don't stand a chance.

If you want to fly the 787, go to Air Canada.
Is RP really flying it though.... 8)
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Maritimer
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Maritimer » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:53 am

The wait times will change soon. We only have 3 on property right now. 3 more in 2020 and then 4 more in 2021 with options for 10 more. Who knows after that, time will tell.
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John1234
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by John1234 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:45 am

Blue42 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:37 pm
plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:02 pm
Don't ask a question you don't want the answer to.

If you haven't been at WestJet for fifteen years yet, you don't stand a chance.

If you want to fly the 787, go to Air Canada.
Is RP really flying it though.... 8)

New hires at Air Canada currently being assigned 787 fo positions. With 100 WB fo positions going unfilled on the last bid...
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FL-280
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by FL-280 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:05 am

Are we comparing Westjet and AC again? This is like comparing a VW and a Porsche...
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fish4life
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by fish4life » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:35 am

Thanks, as for the AC comparison until year 5 there is no point flying a wide body as an FO unless it’s rouge 67 that’s why they are going to new hires.
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Last edited by fish4life on Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

plausiblyannonymous
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:42 am

Blue42 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:37 pm
plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:02 pm
Don't ask a question you don't want the answer to.

If you haven't been at WestJet for fifteen years yet, you don't stand a chance.

If you want to fly the 787, go to Air Canada.
Is RP really flying it though.... 8)
If you're chasing the largest airplane you can find, it's probably not about the flying...
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moe
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by moe » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:57 pm

500?
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goingnowherefast
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by goingnowherefast » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:56 am

FL-280 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:05 am
Are we comparing Westjet and AC again? This is like comparing a VW and a Porsche...
Haha, more like a Kia and a Honda. Don't forget AC has the lowest paid WB FOs on the entire planet! The Porsche might be United, American and Delta.
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tps8903
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by tps8903 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:06 am

FL-280 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:05 am
Are we comparing Westjet and AC again? This is like comparing a VW and a Porsche...
You realize that Dr. Ferdinand Porsche started VW in 1930 at the request of the Fuhrer. Only to have VW separate from the Porsche group. VW then went on to outgrow Porsche (Now the biggest automaker in the world) and that eventually led to VW buying out Porsche.

Just saying.....
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FL-280
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by FL-280 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:40 am

Ok, your point is? VW is still a great car, but its the car of the people, working class and nothing lavish. I believe my comparison is fine...
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CXALE
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by CXALE » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:21 pm

It always amazes me how treads get derailed so quickly.
I open this one honestly looking how long it takes to get 787 and the last posts talk about WV and Porsche.....really guys?
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FL-280
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by FL-280 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:26 pm

I am just bored on an overnight man..... don’t give me a hard time!
The answer remains: too long!
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Oleo 4
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Oleo 4 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:52 pm

At the moment the current time to an 87 FO was 10+ years. That number is considerably higher when you add the 600 pilots lower on seniority and the 500 Encore pilots who would also bid it.

The 67’s will most likely be gone within the next few years and the additional 87’s flow will most likely stay fairly senior. The hope is that the pull to the 87’s opens up base transfers on the 37’s back west.

Upgrades to the left seat remain 8 years in to a yyz base only. Flowing back west as an FO is minimal and occurs around year 4-5 to YVR as of the last few bids. But all of this is smoke and mirrors since the following will adjust all these numbers:

Fatigue and Duty Rules
Reserve
Onex Purchase/Plans
Swoop plans
Wide body Augmentation
Number of 87’s brought on in 2020
Lease returns of 37
Sale of 67’s

All I can tell you for certain is if you decide to join WestJet you will be a YYZ 37 FO.

Swoop I believe is YHM 37 as a junior and Encore I would be guessing so I won’t say anything.
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cloak
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by cloak » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:41 pm

All numbers and predictions are pure speculations based on old plans and figures, all of which are about to change. Two to three years ago, it was unthinkable that WB FO positions would go to new hires at Air Canada. Of course the corporation was several moves ahead of the union and foresaw this time when they pay a fraction of industry rate for WB FOs. What bargain for Rovinescu who's hailed as a hero by pilots and executives alike! The same will likely happen at WestJet. Once Onex takes the helm, its plans will unfold. For instance, there's been much discussion focused on Encore and many MEC members, based on their campaign promises, have been pursuing a transfer agreement for Encore, instead of focusing on more pressing issues that affect current members.

Once Onex takes over, it can fix all that by selling Encore and entering into a long term CPA which guarantees revenue for the new investors. This will solve labour dispute and recruitment issues basically overnight by delegating it to new owners and bringing WestJet more in line with other major carriers with similar flow arrangements. Who can argue with industry standards?! The other will be long haul fleet which is just at its humble beginnings. Once the deal is official, there will likely be announcement for more WBs. Other areas of growth are likely Swoop and loyalty program. This requires attracting substantial experienced talent to WestJet/Swoop directly to support those growths. This will likely be the new focus: attracting experienced talent that can come from other Canadian carriers or expats.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:53 am

cloak wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:41 pm
Once Onex takes over, it can fix all that by selling Encore and entering into a long term CPA which guarantees revenue for the new investors.
If that's what you really think, you're not just deluded, you're an asshole.

What you are proposing is to tell 500+ WestJet employees that they are less than you. Encore flies the same passengers for the same common goal. We wear the same uniform, pay in to the same ESPP, and face the same problems.

You think that all of these people are beneath you because they fly a smaller aircraft for less money? There are how many hundreds of pilots who were WestJet employees before hundreds of mainline pilots? These people who worked for years as WestJet employees are now nothing to you?
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FL-280
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by FL-280 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:46 am

Welcome to the real world my friend.... how do you think every pilot at Jazz or sky feels?
What would make you so special to go around that?

Then you will say: ahhhh but I am a Westjet employee. Talk to the oldtimers at Jazz and see how that went for them...
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jd832
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by jd832 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:03 am

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:53 am
cloak wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:41 pm
Once Onex takes over, it can fix all that by selling Encore and entering into a long term CPA which guarantees revenue for the new investors.
If that's what you really think, you're not just deluded, you're an asshole.

What you are proposing is to tell 500+ WestJet employees that they are less than you. Encore flies the same passengers for the same common goal. We wear the same uniform, pay in to the same ESPP, and face the same problems.

You think that all of these people are beneath you because they fly a smaller aircraft for less money? There are how many hundreds of pilots who were WestJet employees before hundreds of mainline pilots? These people who worked for years as WestJet employees are now nothing to you?
That's a very naive statement. He was stating the reality of how this industry works and how large investment companies play their cards. No one is wishing that on any Encore employee, but the reality is just that. Onex is in control now. They have different corporate culture and values.
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cloak
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by cloak » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:21 am

The frustration is understood. To some it's personal. To some it's just business. One has to ask why was a company created separately in the first place? It's these flexibilities that may also be appealing to new buyers. Much has been said recently about recruitment and training challenges. A move like that will solve the problem for the investors. Will that actually happen? Most of us don't know, but some do know and do have plans to make the group most successful and most valuable. Their interests unfortunately don't always seem aligned immediately with the workers, although they often work out in the long run.

It's also a matter of perceiving new opportunities and aligning oneself with them. Behaving entirely based on emotion usually works to one's disadvantage. Take the stock market for instance. An emotional investor that sees a 30% drop in his investment stays invested vowing never to sell until it goes back up and so on. In the process, the stock goes further down, and valuable time is wasted. A savvy investor takes the money out with the 30% loss, and invests it in something that is growing and has momentum. In the process, claims the capital loss against past gains, and before long that money has doubled surpassing the initial investment. As hard as it is, sometimes one must accept the current realities, the losses, and go where the market is going.
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tallyho
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by tallyho » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:20 am

The only thing we know for sure about future hiring prospects and career advancement at WJ/Swoop/Encore is that no one on here and probably in the boardroom at WJ has a flookin clue what's going to happen over the next 5 years. Accepting any job in aviation is a risk as it may disappear. The only certainty is that in a seniority driven career the sooner you get your foot in the door the better.
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