Swoop Terrain Warning

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 6042
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by ahramin »

I've always scoffed at people who say they won't fly this or that airline for safety reasons. At the end of the day, airline crews have lots of training and planes just aren't that hard to fly. It takes a pretty special situation to crash an airplane these days. I'm rethinking that position after hearing the following exchange on the radio today, food for thought if you're considering jumpseating on a Swoop plane.

I can't find an atc recording for YYJ TML or YVR CENTRE in the correct area but heard this on YYJ TML 132.7 at 2121Z today. Swoop 401 going into Abbotsford, told they were off course and told to climb to 9000. Followed by a second call very clearly something like "Terrain warning, climb immediately to 9000". You can see the climb on the track log:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/WSW ... X/tracklog

They actually climb above 9000, the controller was pretty nice about asking them to return to 9000 when able, then gave them an earful about staying on the STAR when cleared for an approach. The controller was convinced that when cleared the approach they went direct to an approach fix and descended into terrain.
---------- ADS -----------
 
losercruiser
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:50 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by losercruiser »

Ah yes the old Navajo direct the 5 fix approach. In a 737.
---------- ADS -----------
 
PostmasterGeneral
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 524
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:50 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Captain was Probably too busy working on his yammer post about his problem child FO.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Maxpwr
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:12 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by Maxpwr »

.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Maxpwr on Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tbaylx
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbaylx »

Maxpwr wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:21 am People need to understand that pretty much nobody at Swoop these days spent a single hour flying a WJ aircraft with WJ crews from WJ training/indoc. The results are night and day. Swoop is now just filled with low time people willing to slave themselves out and jump the queue or the loser cast-offs from other airlines.
Because a pilot flew at Westjet and had Westjet training does not make him immune (SXM?) Glass houses and all that

To suggest that somehow pilot A is somehow better than pilot B because he flew a Westjet aircraft is a bit ridiculous.
---------- ADS -----------
 
lostaviator
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:42 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by lostaviator »

There are a large number of differences between this and SXM. Yes, mistakes were made, but there were a lot of external factors. (Tower not updating weather etc). In the end, the guys got themselves out and followed the proper escape maneuver.

This one.... They didn’t follow ATC instructions, didn’t follow SOP, AND they needed ATC to get them out. Oh, and then couldn’t even figure out how to level the airplane.

Saying pilot team A is better than pilot team B is not ridiculous. If you don’t think having crew members familiar with the operating environment and the aircraft is beneficial, I’m happy you aren’t with the group anymore. Happy job jumping.
---------- ADS -----------
 
fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by fish4life »

Any truth the the rumour that swoop made up their own SOP’s because WestJets SOP’s were too restrictive?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
daedalusx
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:51 am

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by daedalusx »

tbaylx wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:03 am
Maxpwr wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:21 am People need to understand that pretty much nobody at Swoop these days spent a single hour flying a WJ aircraft with WJ crews from WJ training/indoc. The results are night and day. Swoop is now just filled with low time people willing to slave themselves out and jump the queue or the loser cast-offs from other airlines.
Because a pilot flew at Westjet and had Westjet training does not make him immune (SXM?) Glass houses and all that

To suggest that somehow pilot A is somehow better than pilot B because he flew a Westjet aircraft is a bit ridiculous.
Bullshit. It’s quite apparent that Swoop is staffed by literally anyone who couldn’t get a job anywhere else. You of all people would know. Doesn’t CAE also does the training for Flair ? Don’t you have any friend, acquaintances that instruct at CAE ? What’s their opinion on the quality of the pilot material over there ?
---------- ADS -----------
 
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
tbaylx
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbaylx »

daedalusx wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:17 am
tbaylx wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:03 am
Maxpwr wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:21 am People need to understand that pretty much nobody at Swoop these days spent a single hour flying a WJ aircraft with WJ crews from WJ training/indoc. The results are night and day. Swoop is now just filled with low time people willing to slave themselves out and jump the queue or the loser cast-offs from other airlines.
Because a pilot flew at Westjet and had Westjet training does not make him immune (SXM?) Glass houses and all that

To suggest that somehow pilot A is somehow better than pilot B because he flew a Westjet aircraft is a bit ridiculous.
Bullshit. It’s quite apparent that Swoop is staffed by literally anyone who couldn’t get a job anywhere else. You of all people would know. Doesn’t CAE also does the training for Flair ? Don’t you have any friend, acquaintances that instruct at CAE ? What’s their opinion on the quality of the pilot material over there ?
No different than the new hires at Westjet, Sunwing, Air Canada. Some great, some average, some below average.

The Westjet SOP's that Swoop use are probably the biggest complaint i hear from CAE instructors. They contradict the FCOM and FCTM and are a long way from the Boeing SOP that other 737 operators in Canada use.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
daedalusx
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:51 am

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by daedalusx »

tbaylx wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:30 am
daedalusx wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:17 am
tbaylx wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:03 am

Because a pilot flew at Westjet and had Westjet training does not make him immune (SXM?) Glass houses and all that

To suggest that somehow pilot A is somehow better than pilot B because he flew a Westjet aircraft is a bit ridiculous.
Bullshit. It’s quite apparent that Swoop is staffed by literally anyone who couldn’t get a job anywhere else. You of all people would know. Doesn’t CAE also does the training for Flair ? Don’t you have any friend, acquaintances that instruct at CAE ? What’s their opinion on the quality of the pilot material over there ?
No different than the new hires at Westjet, Sunwing, Air Canada. Some great, some average, some below average.
Oh come on. Company S offers below standard pay and a disgusting schedule. It’s attracts mostly (no offense)... the guys who couldn’t get hired at the other places and the guys who were denied/failed their upgrades. Of course there are exceptions but it’s got the lowest by far experience pool in the flight deck mostly due to the unattractive compensation package. On top of that the schedule is extremely fatiguing which is another factor increasing the risk.

It would be super interesting to compare the combined experience level at S vs AC, WJ and WG. I bet you it’s like 200%-300% less flight experience at Swoop.

Anyone who’s flown YXX from the East once would know not to ever go directly to the approach fix from the STAR, even if ATC screwed up - it’s their home base, there is really no excuses.
---------- ADS -----------
 
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
tbayav8er
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:47 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbayav8er »

What does a typical approach clearance off of the STAR sound like in YXX when coming from the East? Do they typically clear you for the approach to 07 via OMINO-MISAR, or is it typically vectors to final? Haven't been there in quite a while, and just did a visual last time I went there. Just looking at the plates to try to figure out what happened with Swoop.
---------- ADS -----------
 
tbayav8er
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:47 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbayav8er »

Oh I think I see what happened (assuming the track on my flight radar app is accurate). Looks like Swoop went almost directly from the Hope NDB towards the last waypoint on the star, and then climbed to about 9500'. I compared that track to a bunch of other flights that flew the Hope 3 arrival coming from YYC, and the STAR has you go through a bit of a valley with minimum altitudes at each waypoint along the way. Looking at Swoop's track, they went directly over the hill (a few miles North of the track that the STAR has you follow). Crazy.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Yycjetdriver
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 263
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:00 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Maybe they were on the back end of another one of those 20.5 hour days.
Even the best training/sops in the world wouldn’t matter when you’re blatantly breaking some other rules.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3230
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by Bede »

tbaylx wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:30 am The Westjet SOP's that Swoop use are probably the biggest complaint i hear from CAE instructors. They contradict the FCOM and FCTM and are a long way from the Boeing SOP that other 737 operators in Canada use.
Examples?

Like you and CAE instructors are the authority on flying the 737...
---------- ADS -----------
 
sstaurus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by sstaurus »

I think Swoop should be given their own forum so they stop stinking things up in the WJ forum.
---------- ADS -----------
 
lostaviator
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:42 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by lostaviator »

23 years of safe B737 operations, but apparently our SOP's suck.... I'll trust the work of pilots over a few flight sim nerds running sims.
---------- ADS -----------
 
tbaylx
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbaylx »

Bede wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 pm
tbaylx wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:30 am The Westjet SOP's that Swoop use are probably the biggest complaint i hear from CAE instructors. They contradict the FCOM and FCTM and are a long way from the Boeing SOP that other 737 operators in Canada use.
Examples?

Like you and CAE instructors are the authority on flying the 737...
There's a significant amount of 737 experience at CAE. I'd say they have a pretty good qualification to assess.

Things like setting field elevation in the MCP prior to starting a VNAV approach, not applying the Adverse Weather FCOM guidance such as wing anti ice on the ground when not taking type 4 in icing conditions, no engine runups in icing conditions etc.

The thing about CAE is their guys have operated 737's for multiple operators and in accordance with Boeing SOP and have seen best practices. Many Westjet pilots have not operated jets anywhere other than WJ and don't use Boeing SOP and are convinced that Westjet way is the way to operate a 737. Westjet flight ops is much like Air Canada and is welded to their way of doing things which makes it hard to change to best practice.
---------- ADS -----------
 
scabbydoo
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:47 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by scabbydoo »

This is what things look like with direct entry captains from overseas with different philosophies on CRM, and blatent disregard for, or at least a complete lack of understanding of SOPs, combined with a poor green Encore FO who's recieved sub-standard training from CAE and in-house instructors who think they know better than WJ/Swoop SOPs.
---------- ADS -----------
 
tbaylx
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbaylx »

lostaviator wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:21 pm 23 years of safe B737 operations, but apparently our SOP's suck.... I'll trust the work of pilots over a few flight sim nerds running sims.
They have some limitations that should probably be addressed. I wouldn't say they suck but they are unique. Guys at CAE have made the point to Swoop flight ops. If they don't want to change than that's their perogative. Though with a SWG DFO in there now who is used to Boeing SOP that may change.

23 Years of operating with the same SOP may indicate that it's time to review and assess if they're still best practice. Those sim nerds are mostly either current or ex pilots with significant experience. If you start believing that because you haven't had a hull loss that means everything is perfect you're mistaken.
---------- ADS -----------
 
scabbydoo
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:47 pm

Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by scabbydoo »

tbaylx wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:21 pm
Bede wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 pm
tbaylx wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:30 am The Westjet SOP's that Swoop use are probably the biggest complaint i hear from CAE instructors. They contradict the FCOM and FCTM and are a long way from the Boeing SOP that other 737 operators in Canada use.
Examples?

Like you and CAE instructors are the authority on flying the 737...
There's a significant amount of 737 experience at CAE. I'd say they have a pretty good qualification to assess.

Things like setting field elevation in the MCP prior to starting a VNAV approach, not applying the Adverse Weather FCOM guidance such as wing anti ice on the ground when not taking type 4 in icing conditions, no engine runups in icing conditions etc.

The thing about CAE is their guys have operated 737's for multiple operators and in accordance with Boeing SOP and have seen best practices. Many Westjet pilots have not operated jets anywhere other than WJ and don't use Boeing SOP and are convinced that Westjet way is the way to operate a 737. Westjet flight ops is much like Air Canada and is welded to their way of doing things which makes it hard to change to best practice.
Regardless of whether you agree/disagree with WJ/Swoop SOPs, they ARE the company SOPs to be followed. That understanding seems to elude many CAE and in-house OTS trainers and checkers who through their own arrogance seem to think they know better, and as such have not put forth the effort to learn them.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”