Swoop Terrain Warning

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

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ahramin
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Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by ahramin »

I've always scoffed at people who say they won't fly this or that airline for safety reasons. At the end of the day, airline crews have lots of training and planes just aren't that hard to fly. It takes a pretty special situation to crash an airplane these days. I'm rethinking that position after hearing the following exchange on the radio today, food for thought if you're considering jumpseating on a Swoop plane.

I can't find an atc recording for YYJ TML or YVR CENTRE in the correct area but heard this on YYJ TML 132.7 at 2121Z today. Swoop 401 going into Abbotsford, told they were off course and told to climb to 9000. Followed by a second call very clearly something like "Terrain warning, climb immediately to 9000". You can see the climb on the track log:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/WSW ... X/tracklog

They actually climb above 9000, the controller was pretty nice about asking them to return to 9000 when able, then gave them an earful about staying on the STAR when cleared for an approach. The controller was convinced that when cleared the approach they went direct to an approach fix and descended into terrain.
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losercruiser
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by losercruiser »

Ah yes the old Navajo direct the 5 fix approach. In a 737.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Captain was Probably too busy working on his yammer post about his problem child FO.
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Maxpwr
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by Maxpwr »

People need to understand that pretty much nobody at Swoop these days spent a single hour flying a WJ aircraft with WJ crews from WJ training/indoc. The results are night and day. Swoop is now just filled with low time people willing to slave themselves out and jump the queue or the loser cast-offs from other airlines.
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tbaylx
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbaylx »

Maxpwr wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:21 am
People need to understand that pretty much nobody at Swoop these days spent a single hour flying a WJ aircraft with WJ crews from WJ training/indoc. The results are night and day. Swoop is now just filled with low time people willing to slave themselves out and jump the queue or the loser cast-offs from other airlines.
Because a pilot flew at Westjet and had Westjet training does not make him immune (SXM?) Glass houses and all that

To suggest that somehow pilot A is somehow better than pilot B because he flew a Westjet aircraft is a bit ridiculous.
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lostaviator
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by lostaviator »

There are a large number of differences between this and SXM. Yes, mistakes were made, but there were a lot of external factors. (Tower not updating weather etc). In the end, the guys got themselves out and followed the proper escape maneuver.

This one.... They didn’t follow ATC instructions, didn’t follow SOP, AND they needed ATC to get them out. Oh, and then couldn’t even figure out how to level the airplane.

Saying pilot team A is better than pilot team B is not ridiculous. If you don’t think having crew members familiar with the operating environment and the aircraft is beneficial, I’m happy you aren’t with the group anymore. Happy job jumping.
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fish4life
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by fish4life »

Any truth the the rumour that swoop made up their own SOP’s because WestJets SOP’s were too restrictive?
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daedalusx
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by daedalusx »

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:03 am
Maxpwr wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:21 am
People need to understand that pretty much nobody at Swoop these days spent a single hour flying a WJ aircraft with WJ crews from WJ training/indoc. The results are night and day. Swoop is now just filled with low time people willing to slave themselves out and jump the queue or the loser cast-offs from other airlines.
Because a pilot flew at Westjet and had Westjet training does not make him immune (SXM?) Glass houses and all that

To suggest that somehow pilot A is somehow better than pilot B because he flew a Westjet aircraft is a bit ridiculous.
Bullshit. It’s quite apparent that Swoop is staffed by literally anyone who couldn’t get a job anywhere else. You of all people would know. Doesn’t CAE also does the training for Flair ? Don’t you have any friend, acquaintances that instruct at CAE ? What’s their opinion on the quality of the pilot material over there ?
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbaylx »

daedalusx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:17 am
tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:03 am
Maxpwr wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:21 am
People need to understand that pretty much nobody at Swoop these days spent a single hour flying a WJ aircraft with WJ crews from WJ training/indoc. The results are night and day. Swoop is now just filled with low time people willing to slave themselves out and jump the queue or the loser cast-offs from other airlines.
Because a pilot flew at Westjet and had Westjet training does not make him immune (SXM?) Glass houses and all that

To suggest that somehow pilot A is somehow better than pilot B because he flew a Westjet aircraft is a bit ridiculous.
Bullshit. It’s quite apparent that Swoop is staffed by literally anyone who couldn’t get a job anywhere else. You of all people would know. Doesn’t CAE also does the training for Flair ? Don’t you have any friend, acquaintances that instruct at CAE ? What’s their opinion on the quality of the pilot material over there ?
No different than the new hires at Westjet, Sunwing, Air Canada. Some great, some average, some below average.

The Westjet SOP's that Swoop use are probably the biggest complaint i hear from CAE instructors. They contradict the FCOM and FCTM and are a long way from the Boeing SOP that other 737 operators in Canada use.
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daedalusx
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by daedalusx »

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:30 am
daedalusx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:17 am
tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:03 am


Because a pilot flew at Westjet and had Westjet training does not make him immune (SXM?) Glass houses and all that

To suggest that somehow pilot A is somehow better than pilot B because he flew a Westjet aircraft is a bit ridiculous.
Bullshit. It’s quite apparent that Swoop is staffed by literally anyone who couldn’t get a job anywhere else. You of all people would know. Doesn’t CAE also does the training for Flair ? Don’t you have any friend, acquaintances that instruct at CAE ? What’s their opinion on the quality of the pilot material over there ?
No different than the new hires at Westjet, Sunwing, Air Canada. Some great, some average, some below average.
Oh come on. Company S offers below standard pay and a disgusting schedule. It’s attracts mostly (no offense)... the guys who couldn’t get hired at the other places and the guys who were denied/failed their upgrades. Of course there are exceptions but it’s got the lowest by far experience pool in the flight deck mostly due to the unattractive compensation package. On top of that the schedule is extremely fatiguing which is another factor increasing the risk.

It would be super interesting to compare the combined experience level at S vs AC, WJ and WG. I bet you it’s like 200%-300% less flight experience at Swoop.

Anyone who’s flown YXX from the East once would know not to ever go directly to the approach fix from the STAR, even if ATC screwed up - it’s their home base, there is really no excuses.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbayav8er »

What does a typical approach clearance off of the STAR sound like in YXX when coming from the East? Do they typically clear you for the approach to 07 via OMINO-MISAR, or is it typically vectors to final? Haven't been there in quite a while, and just did a visual last time I went there. Just looking at the plates to try to figure out what happened with Swoop.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbayav8er »

Oh I think I see what happened (assuming the track on my flight radar app is accurate). Looks like Swoop went almost directly from the Hope NDB towards the last waypoint on the star, and then climbed to about 9500'. I compared that track to a bunch of other flights that flew the Hope 3 arrival coming from YYC, and the STAR has you go through a bit of a valley with minimum altitudes at each waypoint along the way. Looking at Swoop's track, they went directly over the hill (a few miles North of the track that the STAR has you follow). Crazy.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Maybe they were on the back end of another one of those 20.5 hour days.
Even the best training/sops in the world wouldn’t matter when you’re blatantly breaking some other rules.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by Bede »

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:30 am
The Westjet SOP's that Swoop use are probably the biggest complaint i hear from CAE instructors. They contradict the FCOM and FCTM and are a long way from the Boeing SOP that other 737 operators in Canada use.
Examples?

Like you and CAE instructors are the authority on flying the 737...
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by sstaurus »

I think Swoop should be given their own forum so they stop stinking things up in the WJ forum.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by lostaviator »

23 years of safe B737 operations, but apparently our SOP's suck.... I'll trust the work of pilots over a few flight sim nerds running sims.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbaylx »

Bede wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:30 am
The Westjet SOP's that Swoop use are probably the biggest complaint i hear from CAE instructors. They contradict the FCOM and FCTM and are a long way from the Boeing SOP that other 737 operators in Canada use.
Examples?

Like you and CAE instructors are the authority on flying the 737...
There's a significant amount of 737 experience at CAE. I'd say they have a pretty good qualification to assess.

Things like setting field elevation in the MCP prior to starting a VNAV approach, not applying the Adverse Weather FCOM guidance such as wing anti ice on the ground when not taking type 4 in icing conditions, no engine runups in icing conditions etc.

The thing about CAE is their guys have operated 737's for multiple operators and in accordance with Boeing SOP and have seen best practices. Many Westjet pilots have not operated jets anywhere other than WJ and don't use Boeing SOP and are convinced that Westjet way is the way to operate a 737. Westjet flight ops is much like Air Canada and is welded to their way of doing things which makes it hard to change to best practice.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by scabbydoo »

This is what things look like with direct entry captains from overseas with different philosophies on CRM, and blatent disregard for, or at least a complete lack of understanding of SOPs, combined with a poor green Encore FO who's recieved sub-standard training from CAE and in-house instructors who think they know better than WJ/Swoop SOPs.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbaylx »

lostaviator wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:21 pm
23 years of safe B737 operations, but apparently our SOP's suck.... I'll trust the work of pilots over a few flight sim nerds running sims.
They have some limitations that should probably be addressed. I wouldn't say they suck but they are unique. Guys at CAE have made the point to Swoop flight ops. If they don't want to change than that's their perogative. Though with a SWG DFO in there now who is used to Boeing SOP that may change.

23 Years of operating with the same SOP may indicate that it's time to review and assess if they're still best practice. Those sim nerds are mostly either current or ex pilots with significant experience. If you start believing that because you haven't had a hull loss that means everything is perfect you're mistaken.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by scabbydoo »

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:21 pm
Bede wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:30 am
The Westjet SOP's that Swoop use are probably the biggest complaint i hear from CAE instructors. They contradict the FCOM and FCTM and are a long way from the Boeing SOP that other 737 operators in Canada use.
Examples?

Like you and CAE instructors are the authority on flying the 737...
There's a significant amount of 737 experience at CAE. I'd say they have a pretty good qualification to assess.

Things like setting field elevation in the MCP prior to starting a VNAV approach, not applying the Adverse Weather FCOM guidance such as wing anti ice on the ground when not taking type 4 in icing conditions, no engine runups in icing conditions etc.

The thing about CAE is their guys have operated 737's for multiple operators and in accordance with Boeing SOP and have seen best practices. Many Westjet pilots have not operated jets anywhere other than WJ and don't use Boeing SOP and are convinced that Westjet way is the way to operate a 737. Westjet flight ops is much like Air Canada and is welded to their way of doing things which makes it hard to change to best practice.
Regardless of whether you agree/disagree with WJ/Swoop SOPs, they ARE the company SOPs to be followed. That understanding seems to elude many CAE and in-house OTS trainers and checkers who through their own arrogance seem to think they know better, and as such have not put forth the effort to learn them.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by lostaviator »

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:21 pm
Bede wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:30 am
The Westjet SOP's that Swoop use are probably the biggest complaint i hear from CAE instructors. They contradict the FCOM and FCTM and are a long way from the Boeing SOP that other 737 operators in Canada use.
Examples?

Like you and CAE instructors are the authority on flying the 737...
There's a significant amount of 737 experience at CAE. I'd say they have a pretty good qualification to assess.

Things like setting field elevation in the MCP prior to starting a VNAV approach, not applying the Adverse Weather FCOM guidance such as wing anti ice on the ground when not taking type 4 in icing conditions, no engine runups in icing conditions etc.

The thing about CAE is their guys have operated 737's for multiple operators and in accordance with Boeing SOP and have seen best practices. Many Westjet pilots have not operated jets anywhere other than WJ and don't use Boeing SOP and are convinced that Westjet way is the way to operate a 737. Westjet flight ops is much like Air Canada and is welded to their way of doing things which makes it hard to change to best practice.
Minus AC's hard on for messing around in SFO, we (AC and WJ) are two of the safest operators in the world. Who cares if our SOP's vary a little bit from Boeing? Our regulatory body has approved every document we use to date and they cause very little issues. Yes, I agree they need to be tidied up, but they are far from troublesome.

SOP's aside, the larger problem is the growing number of stories coming from our pink cousin that paint a horrifying picture of the complete disregard for basic aircraft operations (set DCT through the mountain), and federal laws. (20 hour duty day anyone???)
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by CaptainHaddock »

The SOP’s at Swoop are very similar to WJ’s and hopefully the new DFO doesn’t mess with it. I understand the desire to align to the Boeing ones, but Swoop is embedded (as extremely frustrating as that is) in the ‘WJ Group’. So Encore pilots flow into Swoop, then into WJ when they can hold it. Encore and WJ SOP’s ARE aligned-so it would be pretty foolish to operate 170 aircraft under one set of SOP’S, but operate 10 aircraft differently.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by cloak »

Wow, this thread is so unprofessional-not to mention possibly exposing this site legally-to have started so recklessly based on a conversation just heard on the radio! And to be continued by others. Imagine the possible posts after the Transat glider, or Air Canada crash in YHZ or near miss in SFO, and many more, and clearly those would have been more warranted considering their outcome! Careful, karma could be a beach!
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by KAG »

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:03 am
Maxpwr wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:21 am
People need to understand that pretty much nobody at Swoop these days spent a single hour flying a WJ aircraft with WJ crews from WJ training/indoc. The results are night and day. Swoop is now just filled with low time people willing to slave themselves out and jump the queue or the loser cast-offs from other airlines.
Because a pilot flew at Westjet and had Westjet training does not make him immune (SXM?) Glass houses and all that

To suggest that somehow pilot A is somehow better than pilot B because he flew a Westjet aircraft is a bit ridiculous.
Yes, I'll say exactly that. The crews at swoop (and some on your course) were the dregs, the guys who couldn't upgrade, weak pilots. Not all, I know you yourself have good experience (If not poor choices in companies) but by and large Swoop is a dumpster fire.
I know glass houses, and shit happens. But swoops experience level is very low.
Furthermore the stories I'm hearing from pilots returning are frankly terrifying.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by hurtin'albertan »

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:21 pm
Bede wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:30 am
The Westjet SOP's that Swoop use are probably the biggest complaint i hear from CAE instructors. They contradict the FCOM and FCTM and are a long way from the Boeing SOP that other 737 operators in Canada use.
Examples?

Like you and CAE instructors are the authority on flying the 737...
Things like setting field elevation in the MCP prior to starting a VNAV approach, not applying the Adverse Weather FCOM guidance such as wing anti ice on the ground when not taking type 4 in icing conditions, no engine runups in icing conditions etc.
You don't know WJ SOPs if you are using these as examples since you are wrong on all three counts, so next time, do a bit more research.
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