WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako

Post Reply
Yycjetdriver
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:00 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Yycjetdriver »

mbav8r wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:34 pm
Blue42 wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:06 pm
JoeyBarton wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:07 pm
Hard to say, is westjet alpa facing layoffs?
530-1700
That’s a pretty big split, what is the deciding factor for the lower versus upper range?
How many pilots total at WJ, including Encore and Swoop?
The information is limited, the company has been vague on this so far. But the reason for this big difference is the 530 is what they actually need for pilots going forward in the short term. The 1700 is what they see is the largest possible number they could keep at this point and would give them more than sufficient numbers for a full spool up. They don’t want to pay anymore so it would only be major concessions that would allow the higher number to stay.
---------- ADS -----------
  

B757FO
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:01 pm
Location: YYZ

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by B757FO »

I think that might be backwards from what I heard. 1700 was the largest layoffs number and 530 was the lowest lay-off number. Either way it’s the same amount roughly given the 2300 total. Maybe I’ve got it backwards. Like you say though no information given until this later this week. We need to see basing sizes as I have a feeling they are going to change. Commuting is going to be a disaster I think if it comes to that decision.
---------- ADS -----------
  

JoeyBarton
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:02 am

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by JoeyBarton »

How does the recall work? If you are laidoff as a year 6 wsj mainline yyc fo, when they call you back for a q4 fo yyz spot, do you have to take it?
Big spread of pay and lifestyle if you ask me...Guessing wj mainline guys would love to see that PTA gone now..
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
George Taylor
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:21 am

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by George Taylor »

My understand re: the PTA, is we can bid to Encore, but you won't be recalled to Encore or Swoop. Pretty sure mainline guys are happy with the PTA, and Encore, not so much.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yycjetdriver
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:00 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Yycjetdriver »

George Taylor wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:31 am
My understand re: the PTA, is we can bid to Encore, but you won't be recalled to Encore or Swoop. Pretty sure mainline guys are happy with the PTA, and Encore, not so much.
+1
Free to bid into encore or swoop but it is voluntary, can’t be forced into either company. Don’t want to go, don’t bid it and you will be on layed off.
The only group that should be remotely happy with the PTA at this moment is the Mainline guys, if the company adheres to it and proceeds with the predicted layoffs 99% of the pilots who will remain will be the higher tenured mainline pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
  

B757FO
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:01 pm
Location: YYZ

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by B757FO »

JoeyBarton wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:24 am
How does the recall work? If you are laidoff as a year 6 wsj mainline yyc fo, when they call you back for a q4 fo yyz spot, do you have to take it?
Big spread of pay and lifestyle if you ask me...Guessing wj mainline guys would love to see that PTA gone now..
You are only called back to a position as Westjet mainline not encore or swoop. It’s up to you. So no you don’t have to take encore at all and stay on lay-off. Should you tint take encore initial through reduction bid and you then subsequently bid encore per say after your ei ran out then I believe you would fall under the encore cba and need to wait for a spot to open at mainline as per the contract.

The PTA is what is going to save some jobs in my opinion for the whole group not just encore.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Blue42
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 11:33 am

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Blue42 »

B757FO wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:33 am
I think that might be backwards from what I heard. 1700 was the largest layoffs number and 530 was the lowest lay-off number. Either way it’s the same amount roughly given the 2300 total. Maybe I’ve got it backwards. Like you say though no information given until this later this week. We need to see basing sizes as I have a feeling they are going to change. Commuting is going to be a disaster I think if it comes to that decision.
You are correct, it was 530-1700 layoffs.
---------- ADS -----------
  

seriousflyer
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:47 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by seriousflyer »

Deleted.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by seriousflyer on Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Blue42
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 11:33 am

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Blue42 »

seriousflyer wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:28 pm
Be careful dudes.
Rumour has it that company is fighting/arguing interpretations of the CBA and PTA. CEO is trying to force pilots into furlough without using layoff pay or the PTA.

No layoff pay because of force majeure clause and no bump down protection is interpreted by the compnay because there is no vacancies at encore to bump into.

Dont hold your breath for Westjet ELTs to conduct themselves in any different manner than they have in the past.
Good rumour. There is no “force majeure” in the CBA. The only limitations to conditions out of the companies control are to the notice period and lay off pay. No limitations to using the PTA! And as for the “no vacancies at Encore to bump into”??? Really, they’re not laying off any of the 500+ Encore pilots? :rolleyes:
---------- ADS -----------
  

mbav8r
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2129
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by mbav8r »

Blue42 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:33 pm
seriousflyer wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:28 pm
Be careful dudes.
Rumour has it that company is fighting/arguing interpretations of the CBA and PTA. CEO is trying to force pilots into furlough without using layoff pay or the PTA.

No layoff pay because of force majeure clause and no bump down protection is interpreted by the compnay because there is no vacancies at encore to bump into.

Dont hold your breath for Westjet ELTs to conduct themselves in any different manner than they have in the past.
Good rumour. There is no “force majeure” in the CBA. The only limitations to conditions out of the companies control are to the notice period and lay off pay. No limitations to using the PTA! And as for the “no vacancies at Encore to bump into”??? Really, they’re not laying off any of the 500+ Encore pilots? :rolleyes:
Blue 42, if they are laying off, there are no vacancies, it’s a surplus.
A lot of noise was made and I thought this whole one list was about having a bump and flush based on seniority? What happened to that?
---------- ADS -----------
  
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"

Yycjetdriver
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:00 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Yycjetdriver »

seriousflyer wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:28 pm
Be careful dudes.
Rumour has it that company is fighting/arguing interpretations of the CBA and PTA. CEO is trying to force pilots into furlough without using layoff pay or the PTA.

No layoff pay because of force majeure clause and no bump down protection is interpreted by the compnay because there is no vacancies at encore to bump into.

Dont hold your breath for Westjet ELTs to conduct themselves in any different manner than they have in the past.
Unfortunately you’re probably right and it won’t surprise anyone.
I believe that PSB they posted was a major fishing expedition and that’s why they gave zero information for it. They got the information they wanted and they were probably not expecting such a willingness to take a reduction to encore or even swoop if necessary.
This is likely the reason they decided to turn around “do the right thing” and delay the PSB.
The results of the PSB proved following the PTA properly could be very expensive. I believe there’s a reason they’ve decided to delay the PSB and still have been very vague or secretive with layoff numbers/positions and bases, it’s not the willingness of the ELT to do the right thing. The ELT is figuring out the cheapest possible way to cut numbers and they are probably figuring ways around the CBA and PTA to do so.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Dry Guy
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:44 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Dry Guy »

FING A. I SET OFF THE ELT AND IT WAS A PITA.
---------- ADS -----------
  

seriousflyer
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:47 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by seriousflyer »

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:10 am
seriousflyer wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:28 pm
Be careful dudes.
Rumour has it that company is fighting/arguing interpretations of the CBA and PTA. CEO is trying to force pilots into furlough without using layoff pay or the PTA.

No layoff pay because of force majeure clause and no bump down protection is interpreted by the compnay because there is no vacancies at encore to bump into.

Dont hold your breath for Westjet ELTs to conduct themselves in any different manner than they have in the past.
Unfortunately you’re probably right and it won’t surprise anyone.
I believe that PSB they posted was a major fishing expedition and that’s why they gave zero information for it. They got the information they wanted and they were probably not expecting such a willingness to take a reduction to encore or even swoop if necessary.
This is likely the reason they decided to turn around “do the right thing” and delay the PSB.
The results of the PSB proved following the PTA properly could be very expensive. I believe there’s a reason they’ve decided to delay the PSB and still have been very vague or secretive with layoff numbers/positions and bases, it’s not the willingness of the ELT to do the right thing. The ELT is figuring out the cheapest possible way to cut numbers and they are probably figuring ways around the CBA and PTA to do so.
I believe the ELT selects the cheapest option over anything at all times, and then figures how staff can slot into that plan.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yycjetdriver
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:00 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Yycjetdriver »

seriousflyer wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:32 am
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:10 am
seriousflyer wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:28 pm
Be careful dudes.
Rumour has it that company is fighting/arguing interpretations of the CBA and PTA. CEO is trying to force pilots into furlough without using layoff pay or the PTA.

No layoff pay because of force majeure clause and no bump down protection is interpreted by the compnay because there is no vacancies at encore to bump into.

Dont hold your breath for Westjet ELTs to conduct themselves in any different manner than they have in the past.
Unfortunately you’re probably right and it won’t surprise anyone.
I believe that PSB they posted was a major fishing expedition and that’s why they gave zero information for it. They got the information they wanted and they were probably not expecting such a willingness to take a reduction to encore or even swoop if necessary.
This is likely the reason they decided to turn around “do the right thing” and delay the PSB.
The results of the PSB proved following the PTA properly could be very expensive. I believe there’s a reason they’ve decided to delay the PSB and still have been very vague or secretive with layoff numbers/positions and bases, it’s not the willingness of the ELT to do the right thing. The ELT is figuring out the cheapest possible way to cut numbers and they are probably figuring ways around the CBA and PTA to do so.
I believe the ELT selects the cheapest option over anything at all times, and then figures how staff can slot into that plan.
I have no doubt they believed the highest earning longer tenured Mainline pilots would not want to bump down t encore/swoop and would prefer a leave or layoff instead.
However due to years of terribly low paycheques results in low cash flow for the majority of the group that is simply not an option for most. The fishing expedition brought this to their attention and now they’re most likely devising another plan of attack.
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4083
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by altiplano »

---------- ADS -----------
  

Blue42
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 11:33 am

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Blue42 »

mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:57 am
Blue42 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:33 pm
seriousflyer wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:28 pm
Be careful dudes.
Rumour has it that company is fighting/arguing interpretations of the CBA and PTA. CEO is trying to force pilots into furlough without using layoff pay or the PTA.

No layoff pay because of force majeure clause and no bump down protection is interpreted by the compnay because there is no vacancies at encore to bump into.

Dont hold your breath for Westjet ELTs to conduct themselves in any different manner than they have in the past.
Good rumour. There is no “force majeure” in the CBA. The only limitations to conditions out of the companies control are to the notice period and lay off pay. No limitations to using the PTA! And as for the “no vacancies at Encore to bump into”??? Really, they’re not laying off any of the 500+ Encore pilots? :rolleyes:
Blue 42, if they are laying off, there are no vacancies, it’s a surplus.
A lot of noise was made and I thought this whole one list was about having a bump and flush based on seniority? What happened to that?

It’s still there, nothing has changed and as usual this is all based on a “rumor”....if they’re laying off there will be vacancies at Encore to go to.
---------- ADS -----------
  

mbav8r
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2129
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by mbav8r »

Blue42 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:49 am
mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:57 am
Blue42 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:33 pm


Good rumour. There is no “force majeure” in the CBA. The only limitations to conditions out of the companies control are to the notice period and lay off pay. No limitations to using the PTA! And as for the “no vacancies at Encore to bump into”??? Really, they’re not laying off any of the 500+ Encore pilots? :rolleyes:
Blue 42, if they are laying off, there are no vacancies, it’s a surplus.
A lot of noise was made and I thought this whole one list was about having a bump and flush based on seniority? What happened to that?

It’s still there, nothing has changed and as usual this is all based on a “rumor”....if they’re laying off there will be vacancies at Encore to go to.
Ok, obviously it’s a terminology issue, to me a vacancy is an opening, if they need to lay-off 300 pilots from Encore, to me that means they have 300 too many pilots not 300 vacancies. 300 layoffs at Encore could have no current Encore pilots left, if all the Mainline pilots who are laid off bump in to the remaining 200 spots, With exception that some Encore pilots would still be senior to some of the laid off WJ pilots, again not vacancies.
Now, if you expect Encore to grow, then yes, there would be some vacancies to fill, obviously not likely
---------- ADS -----------
  
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"

hurtin'albertan
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:40 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by hurtin'albertan »

Guys a lot of this rumour and speculation could be resolved by just reading the contract and PTA agreement.

There is no force majeure clause in the contract. There is something that sounds like a force majeure clause in the layoff section, but it only applies to notice of layoff timelines and layoff pay. That's it. If it applied to the whole contract it wouldn't specify the exact clauses it applies to! And it would live up in Scope or General or something, not buried in section 20 Layoffs. Even when that card is pulled (20.1.05) you still get layoff pay, but less.

As far as bumping to Encore, the PTA spells it out. If a mainline guy is gonna be on the street, he can bump into an Encore position. Period. "BUMP". Not "fill vacancy". When I bump you, you fall off your chair. That's the price the Encore guys (and company for recruitment carrots, remember when that was a thing? :rolleyes: ) were willing to pay for getting a number on the WJ main list.

Please go read the contract and PTA. Then read it again for good measure. Then think about how bad it would look on WJ if they fu*&ed around with things and decide if they are willing to look like DBs to save a buck or 3, when every other airline is following the rules they agreed on.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Blue42
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 11:33 am

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Blue42 »

mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:01 am
Blue42 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:49 am
mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:57 am

Blue 42, if they are laying off, there are no vacancies, it’s a surplus.
A lot of noise was made and I thought this whole one list was about having a bump and flush based on seniority? What happened to that?

It’s still there, nothing has changed and as usual this is all based on a “rumor”....if they’re laying off there will be vacancies at Encore to go to.
Ok, obviously it’s a terminology issue, to me a vacancy is an opening, if they need to lay-off 300 pilots from Encore, to me that means they have 300 too many pilots not 300 vacancies. 300 layoffs at Encore could have no current Encore pilots left, if all the Mainline pilots who are laid off bump in to the remaining 200 spots, With exception that some Encore pilots would still be senior to some of the laid off WJ pilots, again not vacancies.
Now, if you expect Encore to grow, then yes, there would be some vacancies to fill, obviously not likely
Read the PTA, nothing to do with vacancies, you bump to the position by seniority.
---------- ADS -----------
  

tbaylx
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 786
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by tbaylx »

I doubt that the Westjet group is going to create 300+ initial training courses on a Q400 as part of their layoff plan regardless of what is in the one list agreement. Defeats the purpose of managing cash flow.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Hangry
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:05 am

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Hangry »

tbaylx wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:11 pm
I doubt that the Westjet group is going to create 300+ initial training courses on a Q400 as part of their layoff plan regardless of what is in the one list agreement. Defeats the purpose of managing cash flow.
I don't think anyone would expect you to understand what a CA is, or does, or prevents.
---------- ADS -----------
  

sjatana
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:02 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by sjatana »

altiplano wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:48 am
:lol: :lol:
@altiplano, that was stellar.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Jimmy_Hoffa
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:46 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Jimmy_Hoffa »

tbaylx wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:11 pm
I doubt that the Westjet group is going to create 300+ initial training courses on a Q400 as part of their layoff plan regardless of what is in the one list agreement. Defeats the purpose of managing cash flow.
It all comes down to math. Without being able to put specifics to numbers... What is the guaranteed monthly minimum for a pilot at WJ? Is ALPA willing to negotiate a change to that like AC did? How many pilots will WJ, Swoop and Encore require going forward and how long fast will they recall anyone? If mainline lays off 1000 pilots and encore/swoop only needs 300...700 mainline pilots + all of encore/swoop is on the street, taking into account relative seniority. Still significant cash flow savings. Maybe those 300 initial training courses saved another few jobs. But once the amount of layoffs exceeds the training costs of all the jobs left at encore/swoop the there is no telling how deep the cuts may go since there is only savings to the company beyond that point.

Hope it doesn’t sting too bad.

-Jimmy
---------- ADS -----------
  

mbav8r
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2129
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by mbav8r »

Hangry wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:13 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:11 pm
I doubt that the Westjet group is going to create 300+ initial training courses on a Q400 as part of their layoff plan regardless of what is in the one list agreement. Defeats the purpose of managing cash flow.
I don't think anyone would expect you to understand what a CA is, or does, or prevents.
Not too often I laugh out loud when on avcanada, this one did it! Thanks
---------- ADS -----------
  
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"

moe
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:20 pm

Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by moe »

:lol:
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”