WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

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sstaurus
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by sstaurus »

lostaviator wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 9:39 am
Yycjetdriver wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 9:22 am
lostaviator wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 9:10 am The senior guys will be fine. We are the only “international” airline that lets you keep flying (in your left seat) past 65. Their lost wages over the period of the moa can be recouped in a few months. I’ll support last pay to the last day in exchange for 65 retirement age. Deal?
This statement isn’t something to be proud of. The fact Westjet is the only “international” airline to “allow” pilots to fly past 65 says something about the WAWCON. Who needs to worry about a comfortable retirement, just flying till you die....
It’s all part of the ESPP scheme. It’s actually quite brilliant (from a business owner perspective). Call someone an owner, and create a system that results in a 200k per year individual living on an income comparable to a university student. Work them til they die, or until the total OT cost outweighs the static cost of a new pilot. Brilliant.
You're still getting the money.

My god... sorry to pick on you but the amount of times I flew with top scale captains bitching about their pay... if you can manage cash flow at a kindergarten level you can make it with the esp program.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Yycjetdriver »

sstaurus wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 4:46 pm
lostaviator wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 9:39 am
Yycjetdriver wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 9:22 am

This statement isn’t something to be proud of. The fact Westjet is the only “international” airline to “allow” pilots to fly past 65 says something about the WAWCON. Who needs to worry about a comfortable retirement, just flying till you die....
It’s all part of the ESPP scheme. It’s actually quite brilliant (from a business owner perspective). Call someone an owner, and create a system that results in a 200k per year individual living on an income comparable to a university student. Work them til they die, or until the total OT cost outweighs the static cost of a new pilot. Brilliant.
You're still getting the money.

My god... sorry to pick on you but the amount of times I flew with top scale captains bitching about their pay... if you can manage cash flow at a kindergarten level you can make it with the esp program.
Yummmm koolaid.
It’s not about being able to manage cash like a kindergartener and still get by. It’s about getting shafted by the company at every turn and being severely under compensated.
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RustyDeuce
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by RustyDeuce »

WestJet pilots are nothing but a bunch of whining babies nowadays. Nothing is good enough, everything is always bad. You guys are lucky to have jobs right now - every other group has taken massive hits and you're still left relatively standing.
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172cptn
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by 172cptn »

RustyDeuce wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 6:25 pm WestJet pilots are nothing but a bunch of whining babies nowadays. Nothing is good enough, everything is always bad. You guys are lucky to have jobs right now - every other group has taken massive hits and you're still left relatively standing.
I’ll have some of what he’s smoking 🙋🏻‍♂️
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Yycjetdriver »

RustyDeuce wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 6:25 pm WestJet pilots are nothing but a bunch of whining babies nowadays. Nothing is good enough, everything is always bad. You guys are lucky to have jobs right now - every other group has taken massive hits and you're still left relatively standing.
How dare we complain about the WAWCON eh? How dare we complain about be making much less than our main competition and being probably the lowest paid 737 & 787 drivers in the entire planet..... that’s not very Westjetty of us. I mean it’s not like the only and only reason I have a job is to be paid, but I shouldn’t complain what I am paid and just be happy with whatever they decide to give me.....
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ayseven
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by ayseven »

Genuine question, and I mean no harm... Did the stock options thing you used to get, on top of the regular salary, not put you in a competitive pay situation with other pilots of other similar sized aircraft in Canada?
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200Above
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by 200Above »

Air Canada announces CleanCare+.... WestJet's response? Tell passengers to take their own garbage into the airport. Genius.
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bob99
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by bob99 »

200Above wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 7:58 am Air Canada announces CleanCare+.... WestJet's response? Tell passengers to take their own garbage into the airport. Genius.
Does WJ still have their FAs grooming planes between flights?
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cjet
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by cjet »

bob99 wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 10:20 am
200Above wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 7:58 am Air Canada announces CleanCare+.... WestJet's response? Tell passengers to take their own garbage into the airport. Genius.
Does WJ still have their FAs grooming planes between flights?
Yes
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Yycjetdriver »

ayseven wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 5:10 am Genuine question, and I mean no harm... Did the stock options thing you used to get, on top of the regular salary, not put you in a competitive pay situation with other pilots of other similar sized aircraft in Canada?
It equates to approximately 4000$/year after tax. This year however it was used as a pawn in exchange for a yes vote on the PTA, then was never paid and is now being paid in the foreseeable future due to covid, so not exactly even a meagre income you can rely on.
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stickontheice
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by stickontheice »

In my opinion pilots are missing a big point. The NC bought us time. If things don’t improve and we get laid off it’ll be in October not June (for most of us). So now the clock starts on EI in October not June. We will have some money in our pockets until at least Oct 2021. Hopefully the recovery will be well underway by then and we can all get back to somewhat normal. Fingers crossed. Stay safe and healthy.
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flyingvinnie
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by flyingvinnie »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 2:32 am
RustyDeuce wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 6:25 pm WestJet pilots are nothing but a bunch of whining babies nowadays. Nothing is good enough, everything is always bad. You guys are lucky to have jobs right now - every other group has taken massive hits and you're still left relatively standing.
How dare we complain about the WAWCON eh? How dare we complain about be making much less than our main competition and being probably the lowest paid 737 & 787 drivers in the entire planet..... that’s not very Westjetty of us. I mean it’s not like the only and only reason I have a job is to be paid, but I shouldn’t complain what I am paid and just be happy with whatever they decide to give me.....
YOU chose to go to WJ. People are quick to blame their circumstances, but slow to blame their choices.
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sjatana
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by sjatana »

Congrats to the folks who missed the cut. Safe flying.
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JBI
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by JBI »

sjatana wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 3:38 pm Congrats to the folks who missed the cut. Safe flying.
Let's hope things get back to normal-ish by the end of the summer so we're not faced with more potential lay-offs if there isn't an extension of this MOA2.
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learcapt
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by learcapt »

An extension of this MOA2?? How about hoping the other 450 of your coworkers start to get called back. I know it will be tough but dont forget about them. Fingers crossed things start to get a little better bit by bit by then.
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JBI
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by JBI »

learcapt wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 6:55 pm An extension of this MOA2?? How about hoping the other 450 of your coworkers start to get called back. I know it will be tough but dont forget about them. Fingers crossed things start to get a little better bit by bit by then.
100%

You may have misunderstood. I'm hoping that we can get back some of the 700 WJ, Swoop and Encore pilots laid off sooner rather than later. But looking at all the aviation news, I'm not optimistic that we'll be much on the upswing by the fall. United just announced that it expects to lay off almost 4,500 pilots October 1st.
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learcapt
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by learcapt »

I tend to agree with you but let's be positive. All the best
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cloak
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by cloak »

JBI wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 6:17 pm Let's hope things get back to normal-ish by the end of the summer so we're not faced with more potential lay-offs if there isn't an extension of this MOA2.
learcapt wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 6:55 pm An extension of this MOA2?? How about hoping the other 450 of your coworkers start to get called back. I know it will be tough but dont forget about them. Fingers crossed things start to get a little better bit by bit by then.
It's interesting how perspectives can be different depending on where one is!!

RustyDeuce wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 6:25 pm WestJet pilots are nothing but a bunch of whining babies nowadays. Nothing is good enough, everything is always bad. You guys are lucky to have jobs right now - every other group has taken massive hits and you're still left relatively standing.
Perhaps expressed a little harshly, but there is some validity to your observation. For instance some continue to complain that they would have been better off being laid-off, not considering the fact that lay-offs may well have been longer than their ideal 4-5 months over the summer, or the fact that they would not have had continued benefit coverage, YOS, etc. Others continue to complain about Swoop or management pilots, or continue with the conspiracy theories all the while forgetting to balance what they do have with what could be!

And of course most forget to balance expectations with the realities of the world that in order to have continuing gainful employment and prosperity, the company too needs to be financially healthy and prosper!
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ALPApolicy
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by ALPApolicy »

I think that there is no agreement that would ever please everyone, but this agreement smells of bias to some. I’m on the fence.

According to a text message floating around, there are 15 people who are members of the Negotiating Committee, the MEC, or the LEC’s. Of these 15 people, 11 were slated for lay-off as a result of the bid that closed in late April, and 4 were losing their position (including the MEC Chair who lost his YYC CA spot and would have been commuting to YHM for a Swoop CA position, and the Vice-Chair who lost his YVR CA and was forced to commute to YYC).

I understand the senior pilot’s anger at having to subsidize the rest of the bargaining unit. The FA’s, under CUPE chose to maintain work terms. I’m not sure which approach is better. Certainly senior pilots at WJ share their seniority benefits with junior pilots in a manner different from other groups, and I’m thankful they do. Seniority schedule bidding won’t help me for years, and as a commuter, seniority in stand-by travel would hurt me, as would seniority vacation bidding. Having senior people eligible for reserve if they change positions seems to me to be unfair to senior pilots, but it did keep me from any reserve consideration so I’m thankful.

Maybe ALPA should have gotten something for the pilots in exchange for saving the company money through this MOA that would help the senior pilots. Just spitballing.

Finally, the One List is what forced the company into this position of penalizing the senior pilots. Without the PTA, the company would have just laid off by bargaining unit, and been in great shape to weather Covid-19, without the need to punish the senior pilots.

I just want to say thanks to the senior guys and gals. I flew with lots of them the last three years and appreciate their sacrifice as involuntary as it was. 53% of the members voted in a survey to prioritize layoffs over concessions. Not sure why they didn’t hold the line, but it benefitted me so I guess I’m happy-ish.

Here’s a beer to better times ahead!
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George Taylor
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by George Taylor »

ummm, sacrifice? Ya right. There was no choice to made, it was made for everyone. If there was a vote, then maybe. Don't forget some of the most senior also are spouting off how they will take OT while fellow pilots are on the street.
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