More WJ layoffs

[lostaviator]

Whether there will me more layoffs or not is going to be an interesting thing to see unfold. I fall somewhere in the middle of the overly optimistic / overly pessimistic spectrum in terms of recovery. The fact so many Canadian's were willing to travel this winter when given the chance says a lot. Zoom has its limitations and like government trying to "stay small", corporate travel will balloon again. Who doesn't like a few nights away from the family to "work"?

Regarding more layoffs. It will be interesting. They have carried the current roster through the pandemic to date, why stop now when there's a light at the end of the tunnel? They are paying for every active pilot to travel down to Florida for sim. The PTA still has a purpose in that it would cost them a lot to bump pilots (again) for what could be a short lived period. Who knows?

My bet: They will publish another reduction bid to scare people again, and then ask for a similar MOA for another 6 months to take us to fall 2021.

[George Taylor]

I don't think WJ is paying for the the Miami training, could be wrong, but I think it's on Boeing's dime. Why is there such a rush to pump approx. 1000 pilots for 13 tails?

[x-wind]

It'll be a race to get market share when travel bans lift. The won't layoff any more pilots. There going to try get them flying Swoop airplanes at half the wage tho.

Corporate restructuring was going to be happening anyway with regards to the recent layoffs.

[lostaviator]

I don't think WJ is paying for the the Miami training, could be wrong, but I think it's on Boeing's dime. Why is there such a rush to pump approx. 1000 pilots for 13 tails?

I didn’t realize Boeing was covering this bill. It’s hard to know these things as a private company now.

I’m guessing only sending some pilots down would create more issues than the one time bill to just get it done. Splitting the group would create a new “position” in some way. Different blocks, different vacation blocks, more reserve lines. The one person left at campus can’t even figure out how to schedule the new reserve properly!

The last few layoff LOU’s have provided me with some stability and I’m grateful to still be working, but I’m ready to say no on the next one (if we get a vote). I’ve seen enough of the cards to make a no vote an appropriate gamble.

[WestJet Puke]

Looks like the COO is the next layoff!

Wings Mag article

Sad. JM was a good guy in my interactions with him. His job walks a tightrope with all the competing interests, and that is putting it mildly. Wish him the best.

[Squid]

Whether there will me more layoffs or not is going to be an interesting thing to see unfold. I fall somewhere in the middle of the overly optimistic / overly pessimistic spectrum in terms of recovery. The fact so many Canadian's were willing to travel this winter when given the chance says a lot. Zoom has its limitations and like government trying to "stay small", corporate travel will balloon again. Who doesn't like a few nights away from the family to "work"?

Regarding more layoffs. It will be interesting. They have carried the current roster through the pandemic to date, why stop now when there's a light at the end of the tunnel? They are paying for every active pilot to travel down to Florida for sim. The PTA still has a purpose in that it would cost them a lot to bump pilots (again) for what could be a short lived period. Who knows?

My bet: They will publish another reduction bid to scare people again, and then ask for a similar MOA for another 6 months to take us to fall 2021.

So correct me if I’m Wrong here but if you have an MOA expiring at the end of March and a negotiation to do in order to meet guidelines in the CA don’t you have to post a reduction bid or layoff anyway? Those timelines have to be met so I don’t think it’s fear mongering.

[lostaviator]

Whether there will me more layoffs or not is going to be an interesting thing to see unfold. I fall somewhere in the middle of the overly optimistic / overly pessimistic spectrum in terms of recovery. The fact so many Canadian's were willing to travel this winter when given the chance says a lot. Zoom has its limitations and like government trying to "stay small", corporate travel will balloon again. Who doesn't like a few nights away from the family to "work"?

Regarding more layoffs. It will be interesting. They have carried the current roster through the pandemic to date, why stop now when there's a light at the end of the tunnel? They are paying for every active pilot to travel down to Florida for sim. The PTA still has a purpose in that it would cost them a lot to bump pilots (again) for what could be a short lived period. Who knows?

My bet: They will publish another reduction bid to scare people again, and then ask for a similar MOA for another 6 months to take us to fall 2021.

So correct me if I’m Wrong here but if you have an MOA expiring at the end of March and a negotiation to do in order to meet guidelines in the CA don’t you have to post a reduction bid or layoff anyway? Those timelines have to be met so I don’t think it’s fear mongering.

Maybe I have tried too hard to forget 2020, but I don’t think that was the case between MOA2 and MOA3. As long as the lay-off numbers stay the same (450), I don’t think they would have to do that. But I guess it all comes down to timing and how early they decide to start talking.

[JBI]

Maybe I have tried too hard to forget 2020, but I don’t think that was the case between MOA2 and MOA3. As long as the lay-off numbers stay the same (450), I don’t think they would have to do that. But I guess it all comes down to timing and how early they decide to start talking.

For this upcoming expiry of MOA3, it wouldn't surprise me to see a reduction bid - not as a scare tactic (though that may be the secondary effect), but because the company is obligated to provide 30 days notice for any additional lay-offs pursuant to the CBA (section 20-1.04).

For the initial lay-offs the company took the position that COVID was Force Majeure and that 30 days notice was not required - that was a reasonable position. It would be much harder to make that argument now. So IF it is the company's position that more lay-offs could be required if there is not an extension of the current or renegotiation of a new MOA, a bid and giving layoff notices is something that they'd be contractually obligated to do.

[EPR]

Too bad Trudeau dropped the ball..again...and didn't order enough vaccine for our Country! (of course you will never hear this from our mainstream media) This happened because he was counting on Chynnnaaa to come through for us, and they didn't! Now we are last in line for approved vaccines! To date, less than 1% of Canadians have been vaccinated! People have since died due to his incompetence!

Huh? At 400 million ordered doses, we have one of the largest per capita vaccine procurements of any country in the world...

Ordered, but when will it get delivered? We're last in line for delivery, Provinces are running low on vaccines!

Hot Wings, you pull your head out of your ass yet? #NotEnoughVaccine
At the current vaccination rate here in Canada, it will be 2034 before all Canadians are vaccinated, never mind the current rate of mutation! Good luck everyone!

[Freeport_Flyer]

Hot Wings, you pull your head out of your ass yet? #NotEnoughVaccine
At the current vaccination rate here in Canada, it will be 2034 before all Canadians are vaccinated, never mind the current rate of mutation! Good luck everyone!

So you think there will be more WJ layoffs?

[WestJet Puke]

Hot Wings, you pull your head out of your ass yet? #NotEnoughVaccine
At the current vaccination rate here in Canada, it will be 2034 before all Canadians are vaccinated, never mind the current rate of mutation! Good luck everyone!

So you think there will be more WJ layoffs?

This is my personal opinion and my personal opinion alone.....amongst the WJ pilot group I don't think there will be any more layoffs. Other employee groups....who knows.

I think ONEX is just hanging on, hoping for the vaccine to be distributed and for things to get back to normal. They have cut literally thousands of WJ jobs, be it management, other hq positions, flight ops, inflight, ramp, etc, to the point where there literally isn't much fat left to cut. Amongst the pilot ranks, I believe we have ~406 layoffs between WJ, Encore and Swoop. If they start cutting from the bottom of the WJ list, essentially you are going to trigger displacements into Encore, which will cause a $$$ignificant training bill, plus by the time people get downgraded, it probably will be time to bring them back to their previous position. You could theoretically cut from Encore, but I've seen them using Encore airplanes quite aggressively, covering routes the B737 would normally do as the aircraft aren't anywhere near capacity and at least a Q400 is losing less money. Also, my feeling is that they want to be ready to ramp up quickly, because minus the recent Pfizer vaccine hiccups, if this thing gets distributed the way we are being told it is (to the point where everyone who wants one will have one by September), supposedly demand will spike and we want to be ready. Our CEO described us a few months back as a company in hibernation, which strikes me as about right.

All the above is based on the assumption that the various vaccines are effective, and get distributed across our country on a mass scale by the summer. If there are hiccups in the process, all bets are off.

[thenoflyzone]

So yes, there will be business travel returning, but it will never be to the levels it was at. Same with regular commercial travel. Not for a long long while will it.

Traffic will return. It's a matter of when, not if.

Traffic in/out of Canada is mostly leisure/VFR anyway. Not much business traffic out of Canada, especially when you compare us to Western European nations or the US. So yes, traffic will get back to 2019 levels eventually, but the numbers will simply skew more heavily toward leisure/VFR travel than before. The little business traffic Canada had in the first place will become even smaller. That is all. Routes that aren't profitable because of this wont be flown, but other opportunities will open up.

More cramped seats/less service will because the norm, even moreso than before. Sadly, WS were late to the game, with their long haul ambitions. They went the wrong way, purchasing those dreamliners and installing premium cabins. They will need to reconfigure those bad boys with 400Y seats in order to make money with them in the future.

[brooks]

They have the booking numbers for the fall when we should be fully emerging from this pandemic. If they want to hold a reduction bid that won't be a good sign. I remain optimistic that travel will return quite quickly. Think of all those TikTokers and Instagramers who who need to travel to get them likes.

As for the 787 I doubt they will change the config. If people can upgrade to premium for $79 they will. AC put 4 rows of Busz class in their Max's and WJ only has 3 rows so maybe that will pay off down the road. The long haul ambitions have lots of growth with a plane you can easily fill and fly either to Toronto or filler up and fly for 16 hours.

[tsgas]

They have the booking numbers for the fall when we should be fully emerging from this pandemic. If they want to hold a reduction bid that won't be a good sign. I remain optimistic that travel will return quite quickly. Think of all those TikTokers and Instagramers who who need to travel to get them likes.

As for the 787 I doubt they will change the config. If people can upgrade to premium for $79 they will. AC put 4 rows of Busz class in their Max's and WJ only has 3 rows so maybe that will pay off down the road. The long haul ambitions have lots of growth with a plane you can easily fill and fly either to Toronto or filler up and fly for 16 hours.

It will take time for the traffic to spool up to pre Covid levels and Flair adding 13 B 737- Max's will only lower the load factors, and or reduce the yields.

[pacman007]

Hmm, if WestJet lays off pilots they will
Just hand flair 737 max rated pilots. Doesn’t sound like a good idea to me

[tsgas]

Hmm, if WestJet lays off pilots they will
Just hand flair 737 max rated pilots. Doesn’t sound like a good idea to me

Newsflash !! Airlines around the World have laid off thousands of pilots . The Puppy Mill hype about the Global Pilot shortage is BS.

[tbaylx]

Hmm, if WestJet lays off pilots they will
Just hand flair 737 max rated pilots. Doesn’t sound like a good idea to me

We don't require type rated pilots. Besides any furloughed Westjet pilots require the new Max sim training and they aren't current within 6 months therefore PPC's can't be ported so would require sim training to regain currency. Their SOP's are also significantly different from ours and they would need "deprogramming" which would also add to the sim time required.

If we were to go after type rated pilots a Sunwing pilot would be a much better fit for us.

[Galaxy]

If we were to go after type rated pilots a Sunwing pilot would be a much better fit for us.

Why? Are Sunwing pilots programmed better?

[airway]

We don't require type rated pilots. Besides any furloughed Westjet pilots require the new Max sim training and they aren't current within 6 months therefore PPC's can't be ported so would require sim training to regain currency. Their SOP's are also significantly different from ours and they would need "deprogramming" which would also add to the sim time required.

If we were to go after type rated pilots a Sunwing pilot would be a much better fit for us.

As long as an initial course is not required (In my company that's 2 years), A Max rated pilot, current or not, would likely require half the training (or less) than a non rated pilot. I would be surprised if Flair didn't consider that a major plus.

For any half decent pilot, with a Max rating, " deprogramming" should be a non issue. Yes, there might be one or two with a problem, but I don't think it is widespread.





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[Sharklasers]

As long as an initial course is not required (In my company that's 2 years), A Max rated pilot, current or not, would likely require half the training (or less) than a non rated pilot. I would be surprised if Flair didn't consider that a major plus.

For any half decent pilot, with a Max rating, " deprogramming" should be a non issue. Yes, there might be one or two with a problem, but I don't think it is widespread.

I think you guys are missing the point here.

Tbaylx is pulling the hiring strings at Flair and from his perspective WestJet pilots are useless knobs and bullies for how they treated him when he was scabbing over at Swoop during the start up as the most vocal and unapologetic member of the dirty 30.

Tbaylx doesn’t want to hire Westjet pilots and can colour it in whatever light he wants, as is his right and privilege as Flair management. It’s not like he has a shortage of qualified 737 candidates to choose from.