Cruiza wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:01 am
Speculation........
....
2023.......... SWOOP- 120-130 TAILS......
2023..........WestJet 60-80 TAILS,,,,,,
2023...........if you thought WestJet pilots where unhappy in 2019...... you should see them in 2023....
“SWOOP IS POOP”? Yes you brave gladiators...... remember when there are recalls you should have the same “fcuk swoop” attitude and deny them.....
just act like when Swoop started and YOU-preached how anyone willing to work for them should be banned.....
Blacklist???????
Practice what you preached tough guys.....
Utter nonsense.
The ban was at a time when SWOOP was in its inception. Pilots refused the conditions so the Corp went to the streets.
26 or so guys answered the call despite many pleadings and polite conversations and just like that - SWOOP was created and along with it - downward pressure on WAWCON.
The situation of pilots being forced to bid down is different circumstances and there is no double standard as your post implies.
Had the 26 stayed away - SWOOP could be a fine seat to hold.
The difference is - the original 26 subverted the bargaining position of the WestJet mainline pilots.
The damage is done and there is nothing served by refusing the opportunity when you’re trying to feed your family.
The difference here is the guys trying to feed their families are not doing it at the expense of thousands of others.
Cruiza wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:01 am
Speculation........
....
2023.......... SWOOP- 120-130 TAILS......
2023..........WestJet 60-80 TAILS,,,,,,
2023...........if you thought WestJet pilots where unhappy in 2019...... you should see them in 2023....
“SWOOP IS POOP”? Yes you brave gladiators...... remember when there are recalls you should have the same “fcuk swoop” attitude and deny them.....
just act like when Swoop started and YOU-preached how anyone willing to work for them should be banned.....
Blacklist???????
Practice what you preached tough guys.....
---------- ADS -----------
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!
JBI wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:35 am
As three pilot groups and two bargaining units, would we care if Swoop had 100 tails if the pay and working conditions match or was very similar to mainline? Maybe, maybe not.
Hi JBI, I altered your post to reflect the reality.
JBI wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:35 am
As a pilot group at three companies and two bargaining units, would we care if Swoop had 100 tails if the pay and working conditions match or was very similar to mainline? Maybe, maybe not.
Hi John, "group" is not a contractually defined term and was grammatically correct as used. "Pilots" can be a distinguishing factor that differentiates between other employees in the WestJet "Group of Companies".
For example, it would be grammatically acceptable for me to say "A group of Trump supporters attacked the US Capital" even though that larger group is made up of smaller groups of Trump supporters like the "Proud Boys", "QAnon", "Boogaloo Boys" and "Oath Keepers". It's not necessary to say "Four groups of Trump Supporters attacked the Capital"
If you wish to sow division where there need not be any, your phrasing is not incorrect, though I've edited it to be more accurate.
Not wishing to sow division, James. The divisions are already there and they are very clear and very legal. Moreover, you were trained as a lawyer so you are very aware of the importance of precision in terms.
We are not one pilot group. Unless a reorganization of the bargaining units occurs, we will never be one pilot group.
ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:57 am
To the point, what is the answer to this question:
As a pilot group, would we care if Encore were sold to a third party?
Nope! Have had many conversations on this topic in cruise before and during covid and the general consensus I’ve received is most don’t care. There’s also a good percentage that would prefer to see an Encore sale, for a multitude of reasons.
ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:34 am
Not wishing to sow division, James. The divisions are already there and they are very clear and very legal. Moreover, you were trained as a lawyer so you are very aware of the importance of precision in terms.
We are not one pilot group. Unless a reorganization of the bargaining units occurs, we will never be one pilot group.
ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:57 am
To the point, what is the answer to this question:
As a pilot group, would we care if Encore were sold to a third party?
haha - ok I'll keep playing. Honestly do enjoy this
To your first post, you are correct, precision in terms is important. Grammatically, group is correct in both situations by referring to all of the pilots or the pilots at each individual company, or at each bargaining unit. When to use group is contextual. As a pilot group (at all 3 companies and 2 bargaining units) I think it's fair to say we all hope for the survival of the WestJet Group of Companies. For pilot groups in the 2 different bargaining units, it's fair to say that both groups have some different priorities - for example, each bargaining unit has negotiated it's own MOAs during this crisis.
I would very much argue that we all have far more in common than differences. We wish to have the airline(s) that we work for continue to be an ongoing concern.
As for the question as to whether Encore would be sold to a third party, again, I think we have more similarities than differences. Would we "care" - probably. Would we be worried? Not really. The Canada Labour Code covers successor rights which, generally speaking, means all current contractual agreements remain in effect under new ownership.
Ok, I'll post my reply to you here, so you can read it.
You should care if Encore is sold. Or if WJ buys Transat or Sunwing. That PTA agreement might not matter very much once the merger agreement negotiations happen between the pilot groups. Those other pilot groups might care a bit more about adherence to ALPA Policy and the Constitution and Bylaws than did the WJ MEC.
ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:57 am
To the point, what is the answer to this question:
As a pilot group, would we care if Encore were sold to a third party?
Nope! Have had many conversations on this topic in cruise before and during covid and the general consensus I’ve received is most don’t care. There’s also a good percentage that would prefer to see an Encore sale, for a multitude of reasons.
I disagree and have heard nothing to that effect.
Could you name a few of the multitude reasons why someone would want to see the sale of that business?
sstaurus wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:06 pm
Pretty sure Encore is the only one keeping the lights on right now... it certainly isn't a -800 with <20 people on it.
Haha you honestly think Encore is supporting Westjet group of companies right now? I think it’s Onex that’s doing that. While Encore isn’t burning cash at the same rate as Mainline for obvious reasons, it certainly isn’t turning a profit just like pretty much every other Canadian air carrier. An airline with many parked aircraft isn’t supporting itself let alone a group of companies.
ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:57 am
To the point, what is the answer to this question:
As a pilot group, would we care if Encore were sold to a third party?
Nope! Have had many conversations on this topic in cruise before and during covid and the general consensus I’ve received is most don’t care. There’s also a good percentage that would prefer to see an Encore sale, for a multitude of reasons.
I disagree and have heard nothing to that effect.
Could you name a few of the multitude reasons why someone would want to see the sale of that business?
Well a few of the complaints I have heard revolve around have “one lists” while having separate bargaining units. There is also resentment on how the company has held perks hostage while trying to sway votes on contractual issues. (Ie. Holding stock options payouts hostage for mainline pilots on a one list votes). There’s also belief that with the two being separate there would be greater chance for higher wages, that being higher at Encore as there’s no longer a “mainline carrot” and higher in the first 2 years at mainline as it’s harder to attract someone off the street for 50k. These are just a couple of reasons I have heard, they aren’t my opinion and personally I don’t care either way.
Cruiza wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:01 am
Speculation........
....
2023.......... SWOOP- 120-130 TAILS......
2023..........WestJet 60-80 TAILS,,,,,,
2023...........if you thought WestJet pilots where unhappy in 2019...... you should see them in 2023....
“SWOOP IS POOP”? Yes you brave gladiators...... remember when there are recalls you should have the same “fcuk swoop” attitude and deny them.....
just act like when Swoop started and YOU-preached how anyone willing to work for them should be banned.....
Blacklist???????
Practice what you preached tough guys.....
Utter nonsense.
The ban was at a time when SWOOP was in its inception. Pilots refused the conditions so the Corp went to the streets.
26 or so guys answered the call despite many pleadings and polite conversations and just like that - SWOOP was created and along with it - downward pressure on WAWCON.
The situation of pilots being forced to bid down is different circumstances and there is no double standard as your post implies.
Had the 26 stayed away - SWOOP could be a fine seat to hold.
The difference is - the original 26 subverted the bargaining position of the WestJet mainline pilots.
The damage is done and there is nothing served by refusing the opportunity when you’re trying to feed your family.
The difference here is the guys trying to feed their families are not doing it at the expense of thousands of others.
Your post is wrought with stupidity.
Have a nice day.
JJJ
By that reasoning, it could be said, more accurately even, that WestJet itself subverted the conditions for Canadian airlines and Canada 3000 at its start by paying B737 captains 60000 when elsewhere the pay was double or triple that. And Encore subverted conditions for Jazz and Porter when it started by paying so poorly and all those pilots that accepted those jobs, that are far more than 26, are likely more responsible for bringing down pay standards in Canada!
Your union must have had better negotiation skills and better strategy to pin all its hope on non-members following its edicts! This would be the equivalent of a man marrying a woman and then trying to ban other men from meeting his wife instead of fostering a loving relationship! That should have been the plan: foster a cordial relationship with the company that is mutually beneficial, instead of blaming the rest of the world if things don’t go precisely as you wish.
And it is double standard to have said no before, and now that conditions are definitely known and probably worse than originally offered, take those very jobs for the excuse of feeding one’s family. What do you think other pilots were trying to do?!!
ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:06 pm
Ok, I'll post my reply to you here, so you can read it.
You should care if Encore is sold. Or if WJ buys Transat or Sunwing. That PTA agreement might not matter very much once the merger agreement negotiations happen between the pilot groups. Those other pilot groups might care a bit more about adherence to ALPA Policy and the Constitution and Bylaws than did the WJ MEC.
But that's a discussion for another day. Or not.
Take care.
John
I tend to agree that selling Encore with a long term PTA would be better for the group, including Encore itself. There are good reasons that a one list scheme is not practiced elsewhere in the industry, some of which were mentioned above by another poster. It artificially suppresses pay at both groups, makes recruitment more difficult, makes progression more challenging as it is not in accordance with experience on type and company, and sometimes even worse as individuals may elect to stay at Encore longer and bid directly to the left seat in the other two companies. Plus such sale would unlock value, similar to sale and lease back of assets, and helps with consolidation, as likely there will be more in the industry.
Captains at WS made about 70K at the start. Oh and a little thing called stock options.
When they took the job they were not putting pressure on anyone - especially not people that already work there.
WS was also largely ignored at that time while the larger carriers were busy doing a lousy job serving the consumer.
You of course cannot quantify any ill effect on WAWCON at the large carriers due to WS whereas the effect of WAWCON because of the original 26 is quantifiable.
Cruiza wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:01 am
Speculation........
....
2023.......... SWOOP- 120-130 TAILS......
2023..........WestJet 60-80 TAILS,,,,,,
2023...........if you thought WestJet pilots where unhappy in 2019...... you should see them in 2023....
“SWOOP IS POOP”? Yes you brave gladiators...... remember when there are recalls you should have the same “fcuk swoop” attitude and deny them.....
just act like when Swoop started and YOU-preached how anyone willing to work for them should be banned.....
Blacklist???????
Practice what you preached tough guys.....
Utter nonsense.
The ban was at a time when SWOOP was in its inception. Pilots refused the conditions so the Corp went to the streets.
26 or so guys answered the call despite many pleadings and polite conversations and just like that - SWOOP was created and along with it - downward pressure on WAWCON.
The situation of pilots being forced to bid down is different circumstances and there is no double standard as your post implies.
Had the 26 stayed away - SWOOP could be a fine seat to hold.
The difference is - the original 26 subverted the bargaining position of the WestJet mainline pilots.
The damage is done and there is nothing served by refusing the opportunity when you’re trying to feed your family.
The difference here is the guys trying to feed their families are not doing it at the expense of thousands of others.
Your post is wrought with stupidity.
Have a nice day.
JJJ
By that reasoning, it could be said, more accurately even, that WestJet itself subverted the conditions for Canadian airlines and Canada 3000 at its start by paying B737 captains 60000 when elsewhere the pay was double or triple that. And Encore subverted conditions for Jazz and Porter when it started by paying so poorly and all those pilots that accepted those jobs, that are far more than 26, are likely more responsible for bringing down pay standards in Canada!
Your union must have had better negotiation skills and better strategy to pin all its hope on non-members following its edicts! This would be the equivalent of a man marrying a woman and then trying to ban other men from meeting his wife instead of fostering a loving relationship! That should have been the plan: foster a cordial relationship with the company that is mutually beneficial, instead of blaming the rest of the world if things don’t go precisely as you wish.
And it is double standard to have said no before, and now that conditions are definitely known and probably worse than originally offered, take those very jobs for the excuse of feeding one’s family. What do you think other pilots were trying to do?!!
Freeport_Flyer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:31 pm
With all this talk of Swoop going on I wonder how many will choose a pink tail over a pink slip? Any word on possible mitigations to reductions?
