Brainwashed WestJet pilots

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

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joe to go
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Brainwashed WestJet pilots

Post by joe to go » Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:48 am

So....I've been reading different post on different forums, and many non-WestJet pilots seems to think that we are all brainwashed, kool-aid drinkers.

Well if Brainwashed means:

1. Your employer treats you like a human being
2. You fly the newest fleet in North America
3. Your co-workers are cival to you
4. Your schedule is amazing
5. Your pay may be better than the competitions A320 drivers
6. You are all focused on making the airline successful
7. You enjoy going to work
8. You are not worried about a strike in say......2 years
9. You treat Jazz pilots better than their "Parent company" does
10. You get excited to go to work
11. Your F/A's and CSA'a are not bitter and twisted
12. You have industry leading technology (RNP)
13. Your wheelchairs are for guests, not employees
14. You are one of the few consistantly profitable airlines in N.A.
15. You care about the guests because you know its because of them that you get paid every 2 weeks

If that's the case...............

Then I guess I am brainwashed, and damn proud of it!!!!!!!

Bring on the Kool-Aid
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Last edited by joe to go on Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

flyinphil
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Post by flyinphil » Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:54 am

That is a fine testiment to the WJ corporate culture. It is extraordinarily hard to maintain it it with time and growth so remember your post in 5-10 years... Go Westjet!

Come to think of it, Go Air Canada too! I don't work for either but ride on both and appreciate their differences.
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twinpratts
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Post by twinpratts » Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:02 am

Well said.

13. Your wheelchairs are for guests, not employees
LOL!
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Post by WJ700 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:55 am

"5. Your pay is better than the competitions A320 drivers (here comes the argument, but i used to be "red" and i know that was a huge issue for them)"

I'd like to see an actual 'apples to apples' breakdown of this one.
Year over year, WestJet's risk/reward payout has been really good; but what would a real pention do % over volitile airline stock in 20 years if you donn't diversify. What is the per hour pay number AC vs WJ?

Anyway... glad you like it. Take this forum as an entertainment source only and not real world. I have just as many friends at AC as I do at WJ and the two groups do not reflect what I read here.
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. .
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Post by . . » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:24 am

AC $152/hr for the 320 series as a junior captain topping out at $166/hr

WJ somewhere between $78-110/hr which tops out at between $160-128/hr depending on your contributions.

FO's
AC: 82-113/hr which obviously wouldn't include the poor bastards who are still in the flat pay working for sub 40's for the first 2 years.

westjet: 44-67/hr topping out at 66-89/hr


Now lets keep in mind that this is just an hourly wage, WJ has a monthly 80hrs where AC is 65hrs. So that hourly wage multiplied by the hours paid for makes things much more interesting. I'd be really interested to know what a typical paycheck for both companies is without overtime.
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Legacy
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Post by Legacy » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:09 pm

Well you cant really go by paycheck. To get a better overall picture you would have to go by T4's. A 10 year 320 pilot gets about 147K T4 slip while the WJ pilot would get about 173K T4 slip. These are based on 75 hrs per month. Keep in mind that the WJ pilot includes the 20% ESP contributions. Gotta tuck some of that money away for retirement. Include more $$ for profit sharing and stock options (if the stocks do well). In the LONG run I think the WJ pilot would do a bit better but really who cares. The BIG thing is who wakes up after 20 years and still likes going to work. THAT is the most important.
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Ryan Coke2
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Post by Ryan Coke2 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:25 am

Not looking to get into an AC vs WJ pay debate, just wanted to say that I don't understand where you got your numbers for WJ from. I guess you didn't include any of the of the other forms of pay, besides base hourly rate.

I suppose that relates to your question of what the different paychecks would look like. I can guarantee you that the AC person probably gets a bigger paycheck every couple of weeks, no question. For the amount an average WJ pilot makes, their regular paychecks are definitely smaller than most other people at similar pay levels. We may T4 more, and may well have a lower tax burden, but our bi-weekly paychecks are definitely not the biggest around.
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:33 am

Based on 83hrs a month (a more typical month) at AC:
F/O with 3 yrs svc is $82,314
F/O with 12 yrs svc is $114,212
Capt with 3 yrs svc is $154,295
Capt with 12 yrs svc is $167,190
These salaries were 20% higher before we donated it to Bobby Milton's retirement fund. Also they do not include about $10k yr in per diems. It does include a nice little pension. No brainwashing included, you supply that before you ever get hired at AC. :lol:
I'm sure WJ pilots make more but it's all based on company performance hence the justified (and required) brainwashing. Go team, go!! :wink:
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Blastor
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Post by Blastor » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:38 am

brainwashed is such a bad word.

Try "conditionned", "hypnotized", "drugged", "re-programmed"...
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Legacy
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Post by Legacy » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:09 am

We were all brainwashed, or as Blastor says conditioned,etc, the moment we signed up to get our pilot license.
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:26 am

Legacy.
You're right. And, sorry to say, so is Blastor. The trick is to find a way to go beyond what management wants and find a common ground so that all pilots will be protected from any future downturns. Other industries have salaries and benefits which are preset standards for that profession. Ours are negotiated according to "market conditions". Even the progressive WJ system will hit a wall in the future. We as a profession have to plan for that, collectively. That includes all transport category pilots of any company. Only my two cents but mark my words, that day will come in our lifetime. Remember, management can only make you happy under certain conditions. Those conditions will costantly change.
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Blastor
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Post by Blastor » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:23 am

Even the progressive WJ system will hit a wall in the future. We as a profession have to plan for that, collectively.
WOA!! Did you hit your head in the galley? Quick! Have more Kool-Aid.
:P
That includes all transport category pilots of any company. Only my two cents but mark my words, that day will come in our lifetime.
Sounds like a union pitch too me. :twisted: Too bad they failed, not once, not twice, but tree times already. Some Wjetters lost their jobs because of it. Its coming.........be patient...... :wink: :P
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Blastor
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Post by Blastor » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:25 am

You're right. And, sorry to say, so is Blastor.

You're not feeling well that's for sure. I ressent that comment

:butthead:
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Post by tonysoprano » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:37 am

Blastor, I'm no match for you. You are the master. :prayer:
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Post by Four1oh » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:08 pm

The problem with Blastor, Tony, is he doesn't even realize when he looks stupid, which is pretty much all the time.

Also, Tony, about that 'wall'. I'd say it's pretty safe to say WJ has already hit 2 major walls that I can think of, and still has emerged on the other side, and, no doubt, there's more to come. Lucky for us, we have a great group of people all working for the same goal, and if we want it bad enough, and it's obvious we do, we'll get through it again and again.

Cheers
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Post by tonysoprano » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:35 pm

Well Four1oh, I hope things can always go that way. However, if you think that the rest of your career (the next 20 yrs or so?) at WJ will always be as has been in the past, I would say you're taking a bit of a risk. I hope you never hit that wall. If you do, will you go to Clive (or whoever at the time) and ask for an increase in hourly rate and expect to get it? I dunno. I know you won't agree but may I suggest your last raise was partly due to the fact that the company was doing well but also partly because the competition was hiring so much that Clive felt it necessary to stop a potential exodus? It won't always be that way. All I'm saying is I would like to see minimum salaries set for pilots set according to equipment flown no matter where you work and are based on a formula rather than market conditions. Lawyers, doctors, dentists etc all have this. Why can't we?
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Zapp Brannigan
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Post by Zapp Brannigan » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:17 pm

tonysoprano wrote: All I'm saying is I would like to see minimum salaries set for pilots set according to equipment flown no matter where you work and are based on a formula rather than market conditions. Lawyers, doctors, dentists etc all have this. Why can't we?
because lawyers, doctors, dentists don't deal with market conditions. Society always needs them. There are points in the economic cycle where people don't fly, they find alternatives to air travel.
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Post by tonysoprano » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:35 pm

Fair enough Zapp. I guess we'll have to accept we're only as rich as the economy is and not what we're worth.
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Post by Huge Hammer » Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:42 pm

Fair enough Zapp. I guess we'll have to accept we're only as rich as the economy is and not what we're worth
This comparison of pilots to doctors, lawyers and dentists is laughable. Everyone is worth what the market will bear.

Do you honestly think that pilots should be compensated the same way?

These occupations are market driven just like pilots. They have a value that pilots simply do not.

I am curious to know why you compare yourself to these vocations and not bus driver or auto mechanic?

Seems like apples and watermelons to me.
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Post by tonysoprano » Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:48 pm

Who said anything about a comparison? I'm not saying we need to make the same money as those professions. All I said was it would be nice to have established minimum salaries based on equipment. Guys like LeBlanc would have to think twice about how they would conduct their business. Guys like Milton would never get away with a 20% steal in pilot salaries. It's not apples and watermelons smartass. It's using the same guidlines to prevent the erosion of pilot wages which in the future will be down to the same level of bus drivers and auto mechanics. The only problem with this pipe dream is it would require us all to belong to an national association or, Lord forbid, a "union"!! :shock:
These occupations are market driven just like pilots. They have a value that pilots simply do not.
A captain of a B767 at Zoom makes about $100k a year. He is responsable for the lives of over two hundred people over the Atlantic. A dentist makes about 3-4 times that. Do you think that's fair? If we had national standards, Mr. Zoom captain would probably make twice that. Would the market bear that? You bet it would. We are allowing management and passengers alike to take this whole flying thing for granted.
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Last edited by tonysoprano on Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Bede » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:21 pm

Keep in mind that the average family doc in Canada makes about $116K after expenses, which is only marginally better than a Jazz captain. Lawyers are also around $90-100K. Only the best lawyers and doctors make considerably more than pilots. Those guys aren't that much better off.
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Post by tonysoprano » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:40 pm

Bede. The dollar value is not as important as the consistency. If a doctor moves around from one province to the next, he can expect the same salary, with small variances. We can't say that about our industry. Our salaries are all over the board from one company to the next, often within the same equipment. We take what the boss says we're worth. Hey look, personally I'm happy with what I'm making. I'm just thinking about those who deserve better.
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Post by Huge Hammer » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:29 pm

Tony you seem to be making 2 arguements. On the one hand you say you are not making a comparison but then you make the comparison of a 767 Zoonm captain to a dentist.

Apples to mangoes, which is it.

Like every other profession, pilots get paid what the market will bear. It is why a neurosurgeon makes more than family practitioner.

Dentists, lawyer and doctors get paid what they do because of their education and experience in the marketplace, not unlike pilots. Their respective associattions are not what drives their salaries, their specialized skill is.

A Greyhound bus driver is responsible for a lot of lives, should he be compensated based on this or based on what the market values a bus driver at?

Apples to Kumaquats.
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Post by corytrevor » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:24 pm

Huge Hammer,

Going by your name, and silly posts, I deduce that you have a very small penis.
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Post by Bugz » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:30 am

Wow, from Kool Aid drinking pilots to small penises, this is the worst hijacked thread ever...I'm outta here before Huge Hammer starts posting his pics! :shock:
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