Brainwashed WestJet pilots

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

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flyinphil
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Post by flyinphil » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:22 am

Does the market determine the salaries or do the low salaries create the market? What would ticket prices be if the front end crew were pulling down a combined 500k per year? How many families would then vacation via airlines? If Canadian salaries increased dramatically, why would foreign carriers not capitalize our market? What would reduced industry capacity do to flying jobs?

Tough questions and all of them influence the industry.
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:50 am

Minimum salaries would not be difficult to establish. A nationwide association is the hurdle, as witnessed on this very forum. We now have a situation where flight attendants get paid more than entry level pilots. And just because you're at WJ where management and pilots hold hands, doesn't mean it's always going to be that way. As a profession, we need to prepare for anything. No, we are not brain surgeons Hammer. And you might feel you're making good money now and who gives a shit about the rest, right? I've beaten this one to death. Should have known better than to join what began as a sarcastic thread. Ciao, off to work to get some sanity.
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prop2jet
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Post by prop2jet » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:35 am

Tony & HH, your arguments are both correct in a way...

HH, you are definatley correct in saying that the wages paid are market driven. You need only look around the world to see that where there are huge demands for "talent" and low supply, the pay goes up. The opposite exists where there is a larger pool of talent. This affects just about every industry and eventually as "Globalization" takes hold of ours, lower pay may become more prevalent.

Tony, the notion of having a set standard of pay based on the size of aircraft flown would be a great idea, but it is also sad to say, highly dependant on a strong unified workforce that has a common set of objectives. Not exactly what defines most of us as pilots. The only time you will ever get a bunch of pilots to agree on anything is a trip to the bar... and even then there are a few who opt out :roll:

When it comes down to pay, I think the way of the future is going to continue along the lines of what the market drives. I suspect you will see a gradual introduction of Status Pay vs Equipment. There is a dual benefit here in that the company saves money in long term training costs as there are fewer people bidding off lower paying equipment so as to maximize pay on larger equipment. For the "old" dogs the benefit is to fly the smaller equipment and stay closer to home, making more cash than when they started. British Airways works that way, and I think you will see many more shifting to that model in the future. In a way it makes sense, last thing I want to do is subject my bod to the rigours of overseas flying in today's world. 30 or 40 years ago was a different story... long layovers, not anymore.
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Flightlevels
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Post by Flightlevels » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:43 am

:lol: well what a thread. I can recall Blastor even liking WJ but when he had to pay a little more on his YYC to YEG flight he was choked... :cry: Some thoughts that come to mind from distant posts in the past...WJ will never get past 10 percent market share, Westjet will never get 90 A/C let alone survive. My friend Tony has now made a new prediction that we will hit a wall in the future. Maybe maybe not, however with leading margins and the ability to make money at 90 dollars a barrel, I think I'm sliding my bet over to WJ for North American survivability.
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:29 am

Flightlevels.
I was hoping you of all people could prove the title of this thread wrong. Joe did a better job. pretty sad. The price of oil is not your downfall. But you'll figure that out someday. :wink:
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Blastor
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Post by Blastor » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:10 pm

The "Wal-Mart" philosophy of WJ will be its own undoing. Forget the stock options and the PF. They are worthless unless you happen to be among the first 100 employees. Just talk to your F/O, FA, CSA etc.. and you’ll know what Tony ‘s talking about.

Thanks to low cost carrier and low cost tickets, everyone thinks it’s their god given right to fly. Not so. This ain’t a greyhound bus. Thanks to WJ, flight crew pay the price in lower wages.

I’ll be sad to see God leaving…..Nha! Good riddance
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RB-211
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Post by RB-211 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:11 pm

I think the price of oil will determine the future of WJ because of two reasons. 1) They fly the arguably the most fuel efficient fleet of aircraft in North America along with their already low cost base. Adding the 787(which will happen) will keep this trend going. 2) Their headquarters and main customer base is sitting on what many experts are saying are potentially the largest oil reserves in the world. Look at the success of Middle East carriers these days carriers if you are wondering why I mentioned that.

Rocket science 101 will teach you that WJ is here and will be here for some time. The question is how much bigger will they get, and how much more market share will they grab from the fire sale in Toronto and Montreal. My money is on a good chunk. Kool Aid or no Kool aid, I know where I would stick my cake.

Tony, go to work.

:smt039
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Blastor
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Post by Blastor » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:19 pm

Just for ya Flightlevels and other wannabe..

How do stock options work?

Job ads in the classifieds mention stock options more and more frequently. Companies are offering this benefit not just to top-paid executives but also to rank-and-file employees. What are stock options? Why are companies offering them? Are employees guaranteed a profit just because they have stock options? The answers to these questions will give you a much better idea about this increasingly popular movement.
Let's start with a simple definition of stock options:

Stock options from your employer give you the right to buy a specific number of shares of your company's stock during a time and at a price that your employer specifies. Both privately and publicly held companies make options available for several reasons:

*They want to attract and keep good workers.
*They want their employees to feel like owners or partners in the business.
*They want to hire skilled workers by offering compensation that goes beyond a salary. This is especially true in start-up companies that want to hold on to as much cash as possible.

The price the company sets on the stock (called the grant or strike price) is discounted and is usually the market price of the stock at the time the employee is given the options. Since those options cannot be exercised for some time, the hope is that the price of the shares will go up so that selling them later at a higher market price will yield a profit. You can see, then, that unless the company goes out of business or doesn't perform well, offering stock options is a good way to motivate workers to accept jobs and stay on. Those stock options promise potential cash or stock in addition to salary.

Remember that each year you can buy 25 shares of stock at a discount, then keep it or sell it at the current market value (current stock price). And each year you're going to hope the stock price continues to rise.
Another thing to know about options is that they always have an expiration date: You can exercise your options starting on a certain date and ending on a certain date. If you don't exercise the options within that period, you lose them. And if you are leaving a company, you can only exercise your vested options; you will lose any future vesting.

One question you might have is: How does a privately held company establish a market and grant (strike) price on each share of its stock? This might be especially interesting to know if you are or might be working for a small, privately held company that offers stock options. What the company does is to fix a price that is related to the internal value of the share, and this is established by the company's board of directors through a vote.

Overall, you can see that stock options do have risk, and they are not always better than cash compensation if the company is not successful, but they are becoming a built-in feature in many industries.
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Four1oh
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Post by Four1oh » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:22 pm

Blastor wrote:The "Wal-Mart" philosophy of WJ will be its own undoing. Forget the stock options and the PF. They are worthless unless you happen to be among the first 100 employees. Just talk to your F/O, FA, CSA etc.. and you’ll know what Tony ‘s talking about.

Thanks to low cost carrier and low cost tickets, everyone thinks it’s their god given right to fly. Not so. This ain’t a greyhound bus. Thanks to WJ, flight crew pay the price in lower wages.

I’ll be sad to see God leaving…..Nha! Good riddance
"PF" Blastor? What's that? Profit Fare? Do you spell like you speak?

Also, explain how that appriximately $20 grand of ESP and profit 'share' is worthless to me, a meager 4 year FO? I just cashed in about a quarter of a year's worth of ESP for over $6000. Thanks, but that's worth a lot for me.

And for all the whiners out there bitching about how the first couple of years employees are the rich ones, don't forget the incredible risk they took with a fledgling company. I don't expect that kind of money because compared to when they started my job is relatively risk free.
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Blastor
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Post by Blastor » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:22 pm

Profit Sharing


Profit sharing, when used as a special term, refers to various incentive plans introduced by businesses that provide direct or indirect payments to employees that depend on company's profitability in addition to employees' regular salary
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Blastor
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Post by Blastor » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:31 pm

Pension Plans


A pension plan is a promise by a pension plan sponsor to a plan member to provide a pension upon retirement

A pension is a steady income given to a person (usually after retirement). Pensions are typically payments made in the form of a guaranteed annuity to a retired or disabled employee.

Some retirement plan (or superannuation) designs accumulate a cash balance (through a variety of mechanisms) that a retiree can draw upon at retirement, rather than promising annuity payments. These are often also called pensions. In either case, a pension created by an employer for the benefit of an employee is commonly referred to as an occupational or employer pension. Labor unions, the government, or other organizations may also fund pensions.

Pension plans are regulated by governments. In Canada, this occurs at both the federal and provincial level. The federal legislation covers federally incorporated and regulated companies such as airlines. Each province has its own legislation and agency, such as the Ontario Pension Board.


Occupational pensions are a form of deferred compensation, usually advantageous to employee and employer for tax reasons. Many pensions also contain an insurance aspect, since they often will pay benefits to survivors or disabled beneficiaries, while annuity income insures against the risk of longevity.
You'll go far with your flight privileges at retirement.....the only thing you’ll get. Way to go Westjet :twisted:

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Blastor
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Post by Blastor » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:33 pm

Dumbass said:

I don't expect that kind of money because compared to when they started my job is relatively risk free.
Here lies the problem: You prostitue yourself for the "joy" of flying.
But obviously you ain't no pilot, 'cause it ain't ""risk free".
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Huge Hammer
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Post by Huge Hammer » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:08 pm

I can appreciate the thought of trying to combat the illogical idiocy of certain posters here. Even when the facts and logic are used to counter an arguement from this poster it is ignored or misconstrued because that poste is not interested in a discussion. He/she simply wants to throw some crap at the wall for whatever reason their pea brain tells them.

Until certain posters show themselves somewhat capable of a halfway intelligent thought my advice is this...

Image
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RB-211
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Post by RB-211 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:47 pm

Blastor is right about pensions. They are great for retirement planning and the joys of retirement itself. Ahh the money. That is if they are still there when the time comes to hang em up. Anyone at AC or any company for that matter that thinks (other than working for the government) their pension is rock solid, needs their head examined. I would ask any employee in aviation in the US for confirmation on that one. I would think even those at the mighty Ford and GM would agree.

WJ's retirement options are limited but will change as their pay has. If I had thirty years left at AC, I would be looking seriously at the possibility of going to plan B.

Blastor. You done yet? :smt017
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Flightlevels
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Post by Flightlevels » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:40 pm

Blastor wrote:Just for ya Flightlevels and other wannabe..

How do stock options work?

Job ads in the classifieds mention stock options more and more frequently. Companies are offering this benefit not just to top-paid executives but also to rank-and-file employees. What are stock options? Why are companies offering them? Are employees guaranteed a profit just because they have stock options? The answers to these questions will give you a much better idea about this increasingly popular movement.
Let's start with a simple definition of stock options:

Stock options from your employer give you the right to buy a specific number of shares of your company's stock during a time and at a price that your employer specifies. Both privately and publicly held companies make options available for several reasons:

*They want to attract and keep good workers.
*They want their employees to feel like owners or partners in the business.
*They want to hire skilled workers by offering compensation that goes beyond a salary. This is especially true in start-up companies that want to hold on to as much cash as possible.

The price the company sets on the stock (called the grant or strike price) is discounted and is usually the market price of the stock at the time the employee is given the options. Since those options cannot be exercised for some time, the hope is that the price of the shares will go up so that selling them later at a higher market price will yield a profit. You can see, then, that unless the company goes out of business or doesn't perform well, offering stock options is a good way to motivate workers to accept jobs and stay on. Those stock options promise potential cash or stock in addition to salary.

Remember that each year you can buy 25 shares of stock at a discount, then keep it or sell it at the current market value (current stock price). And each year you're going to hope the stock price continues to rise.
Another thing to know about options is that they always have an expiration date: You can exercise your options starting on a certain date and ending on a certain date. If you don't exercise the options within that period, you lose them. And if you are leaving a company, you can only exercise your vested options; you will lose any future vesting.

One question you might have is: How does a privately held company establish a market and grant (strike) price on each share of its stock? This might be especially interesting to know if you are or might be working for a small, privately held company that offers stock options. What the company does is to fix a price that is related to the internal value of the share, and this is established by the company's board of directors through a vote.

Overall, you can see that stock options do have risk, and they are not always better than cash compensation if the company is not successful, but they are becoming a built-in feature in many industries.
:wink: thanks buddy, they worked for me so far and if the stock stays stable for the ones vesting next year the fo's are looking at 30 plus grand and around 50 or better for the skips. In addition to this years stuff too. Thanks for the article.
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Legacy
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Post by Legacy » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:05 pm

Blastor wrote: Forget the stock options and the PF. They are worthless unless you happen to be among the first 100 employees.
Just when i thought you might have a good thing to say you come out with a VERY uniformed statement such as this. Blastor, I dont know where you work but you sure are an AC fan. No matter who you work for can you at least come out with some EDUCATED and NON BIASED information. Your statements have as much credibility as saying "Westjet is no good because I do not like teal". Dude, come on and grow up. I have worked for both sides and at least i can come up with some informed facts. Your statement about stock options? The captain I just flew with has been here for about 6-7 years and exercised his options and was sent a 40K cheque. Not bad for not being in the top 100. If you do work for AC I hope 20 years from now your family isnt as miserable as you are and I hope you don't drag them down with your depression because you hate you job. from now on just make some informed statements before you go shooting your mouth off. It gets kinds boring. You are getting to be like those freaking dufresne furniture flyers i get in my mail box. you hate getting them but they are still just "there" and in the end you throw them out in the garbage. somewhat like your posts.
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Post by leftyxl » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:27 pm

Isn't that nice blastor....you found some nice friends to play with.
Now make sure that your helmet is on good and snug before you go out to play. Here don't forget your ritalin. :roll:
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Post by onezerotenthousand » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:27 am

nicely summed up Guard - Diner!
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Post by Machiavelli » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:09 am

There are two main benefits of options vs. cash salary. They are the risk-reward already discussed. The second is that the amount of tax paid on an option is lower that what you pay for your salary in income tax. Options are equity and are thus taxed as a capital gain. Ask your accountant about the difference between a capital gain tax and federal/provincial income tax.
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Post by leftyxl » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:34 pm

Blastor is gonna have to take off his shoes for that one!
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Hadji Ramjet
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Post by Hadji Ramjet » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:44 pm

No, options are not taxed as capital. The difference between the strike price and the value when exercised is taxed as income, not capital, although there is an adjustment first added in the Oct 1998 mini-budget. The difference between the value when exercised and when sold is treated as capital and is subject to capital gains tax.
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Post by cyyz » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:04 am

But according to Toronto police financial data obtained, there were 2,718 officers whose total compensation exceeded $75,000 last year

Hydro One and OPG took up a big chunk of the list – with more than 7,000 workers in the $100,000-plus club.

More than 2,000 City of Toronto officials made the list

277 Bus drivers made over 100k

So lets compare apples to melons? AC f/o 26k, Bus driver, hydro 1 janitor, city janitor, TPD cop 100k+.


But tony was right in an airline pilots association of all licensed pilots...
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Hadji Ramjet
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Post by Hadji Ramjet » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:18 pm

Not really a valid comparison. All the examples you're using aside from AC are public-sector unions.
Maybe you should compare with:
- Private sector bus drivers;
- Private sector rail lines;
- Private sector utilities;
- Private sector security.
etc etc...
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Post by linebacker35 » Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:59 pm

The middle eastern carriers are benifiting from the oil because they are government owned airlines(most of them anyway), and it so happens that those very governments have more money then they know what to do with. I doubt Alberta will be giving money to westjet

RB-211 wrote:I think the price of oil will determine the future of WJ because of two reasons. 1) They fly the arguably the most fuel efficient fleet of aircraft in North America along with their already low cost base. Adding the 787(which will happen) will keep this trend going. 2) Their headquarters and main customer base is sitting on what many experts are saying are potentially the largest oil reserves in the world. Look at the success of Middle East carriers these days carriers if you are wondering why I mentioned that.

Rocket science 101 will teach you that WJ is here and will be here for some time. The question is how much bigger will they get, and how much more market share will they grab from the fire sale in Toronto and Montreal. My money is on a good chunk. Kool Aid or no Kool aid, I know where I would stick my cake.

Tony, go to work.

:smt039
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Post by tofo » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:25 am

I want to work there
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