Let me start this thread by saying that I'm a Jazz pilot, and I commute from Thunder Bay to Toronto. The other day, I was travelling to Toronto on a Westjet flight in order to get to work (all the Jazz flights were full), and was thrilled to be able to make use of the reciprocal jumpseat agreement. I've flown WJ quite a few times to/from work (as well as many times before I worked at Jazz), and have always had a good experience (although many of the jokes are a little tired, smiling employees are always a good thing!). I was in uniform (as I had to fly when I got to Toronto), and I had intended to make a point of poking my head up front after the flight to thank the guys for the lift.
We were on final descent into Toronto, a few hundred feet up, when we started to go around. It's Pearson...we all know how it gets there. They pack us close together on approach, so if someone ends up spending a couple of extra seconds on the runway, someone else has to miss. It sucks, but sh*t happens. Well, the predictable murmur was spreading throughout the cabin, but nobody seemed too upset. After the plane was cleaned up, and being vectored for another approach, the Captain came on the PA. "Sorry about that, folks....we were all set to land, and the aircraft in front of us didn't get off the runway in time. ATC told us to go around, which means we have to add power and climb back up to start another approach. We should be landing in about 5 minutes now. <long pause> Well...sorry again... that's about all I can say...except...well...let's just say that the aircraft on the runway had a Maple Leaf on the tail." Needless to say, quite a few passengers laughed (I heard a couple who actually, and accurately in my opinion, said "that's a bit of a cheap shot").
It's hard to express how disappointed and upset I was in hearing such an unnecessary cheap shot over the PA. I'm pretty sure we all do our best to get off runways in time in order to not screw the next guy coming in. I'm also pretty sure that Air Canada and Jazz don't announce over the PA every time they get to the destination without losing/forgetting an Unaccompanied Minor, or every time they taxi to the gate in LAX without a runway incursion.
Understandably, I didn't poke my head in to say thanks on the way out...I thanked the F/A's (who were great), but didn't care to say much to the front end crew. I've sometimes thought about whether or not I should apply to Westjet. I know that you can't judge a whole company by one person, but if this is what's referred to as "Westjettitude"...well...that's just something I'd rather never develop.
After 10 years in the airline industry, that's the first PA announcement I've heard on any airline worldwide that embarrassed me as a fellow pilot. If you're reading this, and you were the Captain operating the flight in question...thanks for embarrassing me in front of all your passengers. It was a pretty proud moment for me.
Swerved.
(Edited to remove flight number and date.)
Lack of professionalism
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Lack of professionalism
Last edited by Swerved on Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In a world full of people, only some want to fly. Isn't that crazy?
Re: Lack of professionalism
yes, it's uncalled for, and I agree with you, but you know the old saying, rocks and glass houses. I've been witness to just as 'professional' behavior from your boys as well. Hopefully we'll all figure out how to get along eventually. 
Here's for hoping.
Here's for hoping.Drinking outside the box.
-
Ryan Coke2
- Rank 3
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:45 pm
Re: Lack of professionalism
I understand what your saying, and it would've been better not to go into detail about who it was, even if it was true. Not the worst thing I've heard, and have certainly heard just as bad and worse going the other way.
The goal is for us to be the 'bigger man' with stuff like that, but there are people everywhere that make some poor decisions and mistakes along the way.
As for wokring at WS, I bet you probably already know that what you heard isn't what westjettitude is about, and there are always exceptions to the rule.
I do apologize if the somewhat inappropriate remark put you in an uncomfortable position.
The goal is for us to be the 'bigger man' with stuff like that, but there are people everywhere that make some poor decisions and mistakes along the way.
As for wokring at WS, I bet you probably already know that what you heard isn't what westjettitude is about, and there are always exceptions to the rule.
I do apologize if the somewhat inappropriate remark put you in an uncomfortable position.
-
twinpratts
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1625
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:38 am
- Location: The Wild Wild West.
- Contact:
Re: Lack of professionalism
Sorry, buddy.... but that's pretty minor in my book. I'd say your post...
" I'm also pretty sure that Air Canada and Jazz don't announce over the PA every time they get to the destination without losing/forgetting an Unaccompanied Minor, or every time they taxi to the gate in LAX without a runway incursion"
was more of a cheap shot.
" I'm also pretty sure that Air Canada and Jazz don't announce over the PA every time they get to the destination without losing/forgetting an Unaccompanied Minor, or every time they taxi to the gate in LAX without a runway incursion"
was more of a cheap shot.
I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
-
smallpilot
- Rank 0
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:54 pm
- Location: your screen
Re: Lack of professionalism
Pilot-to-Pilot we have to look out for each other. Its called PROFESSIONAL COURTESY.
If our bosses want to fight it out, well thats their problem.
Safe flying.
If our bosses want to fight it out, well thats their problem.
Safe flying.
Re: Lack of professionalism
Yes, that is a good example of a cheap shot, one could say that we don't taxi to NRT or LAS without a runway incursion or lose a UM in YQR like AC.
However, what the Captain said was not called for and its not the norm. As for YQT, I'm flying there today and I still quite happy to take you home if you want the ride.
However, what the Captain said was not called for and its not the norm. As for YQT, I'm flying there today and I still quite happy to take you home if you want the ride.
Re: Lack of professionalism
Hmm, I have made that exact same PA for several reasons and sometimes I have no problem doing it. I'm well aware of the tight spacing into yyz at times, more so when they are using the 33's or the 15's. We came in behind a 319 one night who decided not to do 170 to the FAF but rather slow up to their final approach speed (they were light) well prior to the FAF. The tower asked them if there was a problem then proceeded to give them shit. We saw that we were running over them on TCAS and asked the approach controller to slow down. Things might have worked out except for the fact they misssed the first high speed on 33L after having a ground speed of less then 100 knots and being asked by the tower if they could make it. The result was us going around at the cost of a couple of thousand dollars and several letters from pax saying they were scared.
Second, AirCanada delaying us for their lack of ground crew. I know question every time we are told to hold our push or hold short of our gate due to an AC aircraft, usually waiting for ground crew. I dont work for AC and it certainly isnt our problem that they are short staffed.
Third, AC ground staff often leave our gate covered with their equipment, I guess they think they own the airport somehow. I bust my ass from the moment I wake up for a safe and expeditious flight.
Fourth, AC groomers leaving their left over papers and trash on the bridge. Its actually crossed my mind to pick it up and walk next door to an AC gate and throw it there while their trying to board.
I dont work for either Jazz or WJ so I know I just hi jacked this thread. As far as PA's go, the first few times is a freebe but when it happens on a daily basis I personally have no problem telling our pax exactly why we are late, even if its my fault.
Second, AirCanada delaying us for their lack of ground crew. I know question every time we are told to hold our push or hold short of our gate due to an AC aircraft, usually waiting for ground crew. I dont work for AC and it certainly isnt our problem that they are short staffed.
Third, AC ground staff often leave our gate covered with their equipment, I guess they think they own the airport somehow. I bust my ass from the moment I wake up for a safe and expeditious flight.
Fourth, AC groomers leaving their left over papers and trash on the bridge. Its actually crossed my mind to pick it up and walk next door to an AC gate and throw it there while their trying to board.
I dont work for either Jazz or WJ so I know I just hi jacked this thread. As far as PA's go, the first few times is a freebe but when it happens on a daily basis I personally have no problem telling our pax exactly why we are late, even if its my fault.
Re: Lack of professionalism
As a WestJetter, I would also have been embarrassed to hear that on the P/A. Sorry it happened, no excuses. We'll see what the boss' think about it soon enough (they drop in online now and then, mostly AEF but sometimes AvCanada too). I smell a memo coming
Re: Lack of professionalism
Whipline must have the new TCAS.(they were light)
Re: Lack of professionalism
I agree that the PA was not appropriate.
I find behavior like that quite embarrassing.
I find behavior like that quite embarrassing.
-
monkeyspankmasterflex
- Rank 7
- Posts: 517
- Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:12 pm
Re: Lack of professionalism
Funny IMO, you yourself said the WS jokes were "tired" he/she was just trying out some new material.
Re: Lack of professionalism
I'm glad that some of you understood the point I was trying to make. As for others who pointed out that AC/Jazz has some less-than-ideal employees as well...you're right. I wasn't trying to point fingers or call anyone names...I made a conscious effort to point out that I generally like travelling on Westjet, and enjoy my interaction with their staff.
Ryan Coke and wrc, I've gone back and removed the flight number and date, as my intention is not to get anyone in trouble. I'd just like him to use a little more discretion next time before helping whip up the "Air Canada is evil" sentiment. I agree that AC/Jazz has some folks who don't enjoy what they do, and it is obvious to the travelling public. Thanks to these few people, the rest of us who bust our butts to do a good job and try to ensure a positive experience for passengers get to go to work every day for Public Enemy #1. The media often seems to go out of its way to jump on the bandwagon as well. If you work for Westjet, understand and enjoy the fact that the public already loves you. You don't need to bash your competition to keep it that way.
Whipline, understand that many of your feelings toward AC employees are shared by their coworkers. Sadly, there's not much we can do about it, though. I don't know where you work (nor is it any of my business), but I hope it's a private/corporate company...if you work for an airline, and you're making PA's pointing out the competition's ineptitude, I wouldn't think much of your discretion.
My point is this. We all make mistakes. Whether it's in NRT, LAS, LAX, YQR, or YUL...it happens. Chances are, the media will pick up on it, and it'll be front page news (my wife is a journalist, so I'm not knocking them...they're just doing their job). Between ourselves, can we try to use some professional courtesy? (cue Rodney King...can't we all just get along?) As smallpilot says, let our bosses fight it out...we don't need to take part.
WJ700, thanks for the offer. Looks like I'll be okay to get home on Jazz tomorrow night. Rest assured if I were to hear a PA coming from one of my own colleagues, you'd see the same kind of post on here. You'll never hear it from my flight deck, though...
Happy flying...
Swerved.
Ryan Coke and wrc, I've gone back and removed the flight number and date, as my intention is not to get anyone in trouble. I'd just like him to use a little more discretion next time before helping whip up the "Air Canada is evil" sentiment. I agree that AC/Jazz has some folks who don't enjoy what they do, and it is obvious to the travelling public. Thanks to these few people, the rest of us who bust our butts to do a good job and try to ensure a positive experience for passengers get to go to work every day for Public Enemy #1. The media often seems to go out of its way to jump on the bandwagon as well. If you work for Westjet, understand and enjoy the fact that the public already loves you. You don't need to bash your competition to keep it that way.
Whipline, understand that many of your feelings toward AC employees are shared by their coworkers. Sadly, there's not much we can do about it, though. I don't know where you work (nor is it any of my business), but I hope it's a private/corporate company...if you work for an airline, and you're making PA's pointing out the competition's ineptitude, I wouldn't think much of your discretion.
My point is this. We all make mistakes. Whether it's in NRT, LAS, LAX, YQR, or YUL...it happens. Chances are, the media will pick up on it, and it'll be front page news (my wife is a journalist, so I'm not knocking them...they're just doing their job). Between ourselves, can we try to use some professional courtesy? (cue Rodney King...can't we all just get along?) As smallpilot says, let our bosses fight it out...we don't need to take part.
WJ700, thanks for the offer. Looks like I'll be okay to get home on Jazz tomorrow night. Rest assured if I were to hear a PA coming from one of my own colleagues, you'd see the same kind of post on here. You'll never hear it from my flight deck, though...
Happy flying...
Swerved.
In a world full of people, only some want to fly. Isn't that crazy?
Re: Lack of professionalism
So they were light, huh? Can you tell us what is light for a 319? What happened infront of them? Was there a departing aircraft that they slowed for or maybe another slower airplane arriving before them? Were they given a clearance to maintain 170 to the FAF? Otherwise, there is no obligation just because you are going to do 170. They missed the high speed, huh? Was there contamination on the runway? I guess they should have compromised their safety to exit the runway expeditiously for you.whipline wrote: We came in behind a 319 one night who decided not to do 170 to the FAF but rather slow up to their final approach speed (they were light) well prior to the FAF. The tower asked them if there was a problem then proceeded to give them @#$!. We saw that we were running over them on TCAS and asked the approach controller to slow down. Things might have worked out except for the fact they misssed the first high speed on 33L after having a ground speed of less then 100 knots and being asked by the tower if they could make it. The result was us going around at the cost of a couple of thousand dollars and several letters from pax saying they were scared.
Second, AirCanada delaying us for their lack of ground crew. I know question every time we are told to hold our push or hold short of our gate due to an AC aircraft, usually waiting for ground crew. I dont work for AC and it certainly isnt our problem that they are short staffed.
Fourth, AC groomers leaving their left over papers and trash on the bridge. Its actually crossed my mind to pick it up and walk next door to an AC gate and throw it there while their trying to board.
As far as PA's go, the first few times is a freebe but when it happens on a daily basis I personally have no problem telling our pax exactly why we are late, even if its my fault.
Yes, it is in our SOPs to sit infront of a gate after several radio calls for ground crew and a 6 leg 14 hour day just to block another airline
So even if it is your fault you will tell 'em the truth. Mighty big of ya!
-
North of You
- Rank 3
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:21 pm
- Location: On the Grassy Knoll, Fat Dumb and Happy
Re: Lack of professionalism
HIGHJACK!!!
Was taxiing out in YXU about one month ago doing the first flight out of there at 0dark thirty in the AM. Wanted to use 09 for a departure and on the taxi out we were told there was a WJ 37 inbound from YYC(?) onto 15 “so there will be a delay for your clearance”. Went to position on 09 and heard WJ canceled their IFR at about 6 miles. Said thanks and told him we would wait till he was down and clear due to the fact it was night and just didn’t want to cut him off. To which his reply was “go ahead. Lots of room.” On behalf of me and the rest of the crew and out pax that early morning, I would like to say thank you for your consideration.
Next…………
Was taxiing out in YXU about one month ago doing the first flight out of there at 0dark thirty in the AM. Wanted to use 09 for a departure and on the taxi out we were told there was a WJ 37 inbound from YYC(?) onto 15 “so there will be a delay for your clearance”. Went to position on 09 and heard WJ canceled their IFR at about 6 miles. Said thanks and told him we would wait till he was down and clear due to the fact it was night and just didn’t want to cut him off. To which his reply was “go ahead. Lots of room.” On behalf of me and the rest of the crew and out pax that early morning, I would like to say thank you for your consideration.
Next…………
“Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.” My Father
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.” My Father
Re: Lack of professionalism
Clue number one YYZ tower "AC 123, is there a problem" AC123 "no...long pause...why" YYZ tower "your ground speed is less then 100 knots. The aircraft behind you is almost double your speed. Were you told to hold 170 to the marker." AC123 "yes" YYZ tower "Can you make the first high speed" AC 123 "were a 319 and were really light. We should be able to make the exit"
Clue number two Light airplanes approach at much slower speeds then do heavy ones of the same type, but of course you all knew that. My type, roughly 30 knots between light and heavy.
Clue number three when you look at the aircraft in front of you on TCAS and they are 5 miles in front, 1 minute later you look back and you are 4 miles behind it should be fairly obvious that you are grounding 60 knots faster and need to do something about it, but I'm sure you knew that as well.
YYCfly guy, just because your name says calgary I'll spell it out for you. YYZ generally uses the 33's when the winds are strong (approaximately 24 knots ish). They built the runways to close to have simaltaneous arrivals and departures. There was no one taking off 33L and I thought it would have been obvious but the runway was bare and dry. If it was slippery I wouldn't be posting this.
Swerved, I have no idea how you and AC put up with having to wait at the gate every arrival. I travel a lot in the back of AC/Jazz airplanes and almost every arrival at every airport is the exact same thing, how do you do it?
Clue number two Light airplanes approach at much slower speeds then do heavy ones of the same type, but of course you all knew that. My type, roughly 30 knots between light and heavy.
Clue number three when you look at the aircraft in front of you on TCAS and they are 5 miles in front, 1 minute later you look back and you are 4 miles behind it should be fairly obvious that you are grounding 60 knots faster and need to do something about it, but I'm sure you knew that as well.
YYCfly guy, just because your name says calgary I'll spell it out for you. YYZ generally uses the 33's when the winds are strong (approaximately 24 knots ish). They built the runways to close to have simaltaneous arrivals and departures. There was no one taking off 33L and I thought it would have been obvious but the runway was bare and dry. If it was slippery I wouldn't be posting this.
Swerved, I have no idea how you and AC put up with having to wait at the gate every arrival. I travel a lot in the back of AC/Jazz airplanes and almost every arrival at every airport is the exact same thing, how do you do it?
Re: Lack of professionalism
Where is this Toronto place that you speak of? Just kidding, I know it is southwest of Calgary.whipline wrote:Clue number one YYZ tower "AC 123, is there a problem" AC123 "no...long pause...why" YYZ tower "your ground speed is less then 100 knots. The aircraft behind you is almost double your speed. Were you told to hold 170 to the marker." AC123 "yes" YYZ tower "Can you make the first high speed" AC 123 "were a 319 and were really light. We should be able to make the exit"
Clue number two Light airplanes approach at much slower speeds then do heavy ones of the same type, but of course you all knew that. My type, roughly 30 knots between light and heavy.
Clue number three when you look at the aircraft in front of you on TCAS and they are 5 miles in front, 1 minute later you look back and you are 4 miles behind it should be fairly obvious that you are grounding 60 knots faster and need to do something about it, but I'm sure you knew that as well.
YYCfly guy, just because your name says calgary I'll spell it out for you. YYZ generally uses the 33's when the winds are strong (approaximately 24 knots ish). They built the runways to close to have simaltaneous arrivals and departures. There was no one taking off 33L and I thought it would have been obvious but the runway was bare and dry. If it was slippery I wouldn't be posting this.
Swerved, I have no idea how you and AC put up with having to wait at the gate every arrival. I travel a lot in the back of AC/Jazz airplanes and almost every arrival at every airport is the exact same thing, how do you do it?
Oh, and you neglected to mention all this pertinent information in the original post. I shall go away and put my head in the sand as you most certainly are the professional. Thanks for the tips on operational generalities in Toronto and how TCAS works. If I ever get to fly there boy will I be scared!
Re: Lack of professionalism
Dudes like whipline are the people I find embarrassing.
Sorry Flyguy - he sounds like a real pin head. If I were you I would have told him to @#$! off, but perhaps I'l just stay out of your dialogue.
Whipline - "people who live in glass houses..." Save your sanctimonious crap for yourself.
YYCFLYGUY - glug glug on the 9th?
jjj
Sorry Flyguy - he sounds like a real pin head. If I were you I would have told him to @#$! off, but perhaps I'l just stay out of your dialogue.
Whipline - "people who live in glass houses..." Save your sanctimonious crap for yourself.
YYCFLYGUY - glug glug on the 9th?
jjj
Re: Lack of professionalism
Toronto isn't southwest of Calgary.
Whipline where did you get the transcript?
Whipline where did you get the transcript?
Re: Lack of professionalism
I love glug glug. Last time you gave me the clap so no good night kissjjj wrote: YYCFLYGUY - glug glug on the 9th?
jjj
Oh, er um, yeah, I meant Northwest.Toronto isn't southwest of Calgary.
On a more serious note. Do you guys actually get to see the letters of "scared" passengers from a missed approach? I think that would be a great addition to my non-professional portfolio.
Re: Lack of professionalism
Why don't you just TELL me where it is!Mustard wrote:You might want to invest in a map.
-
North of You
- Rank 3
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:21 pm
- Location: On the Grassy Knoll, Fat Dumb and Happy
Re: Lack of professionalism
Sigh………
I tried to get this bitch fest out of the gutter, but you folks are just hell bent on slanging each other. So what’s the use? Carry on you shmuks….
I tried to get this bitch fest out of the gutter, but you folks are just hell bent on slanging each other. So what’s the use? Carry on you shmuks….
“Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.” My Father
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.” My Father
Re: Lack of professionalism
swerved
I agree that this was unprofessional. All the guys defending it saying "look what you guys have done to us" are missing the point. Not that it's an excuse but, the CSA's don't seem to notify us when a recip jump seater is on board. They are supposed to. I can almost gaurantee that if those boys knew you were in the back they would not have said it. Yes, they should not have said it regardless...but they would have showed a little more respect and courtesy.
I agree that this was unprofessional. All the guys defending it saying "look what you guys have done to us" are missing the point. Not that it's an excuse but, the CSA's don't seem to notify us when a recip jump seater is on board. They are supposed to. I can almost gaurantee that if those boys knew you were in the back they would not have said it. Yes, they should not have said it regardless...but they would have showed a little more respect and courtesy.
Re: Lack of professionalism
I don't know if what you were trying to say came across the way that you meant or not, it sounds like you are saying that it would be OK to say it if there was no AC or ACJ pilots riding in the back, so they are not slighted. I agree with you they should not have said it at all, and that should be the end of the topic. Whether there were any AC folks in the back shouldn't make a difference.squawk wrote:swerved
I agree that this was unprofessional. All the guys defending it saying "look what you guys have done to us" are missing the point. Not that it's an excuse but, the CSA's don't seem to notify us when a recip jump seater is on board. They are supposed to. I can almost gaurantee that if those boys knew you were in the back they would not have said it. Yes, they should not have said it regardless...but they would have showed a little more respect and courtesy.
I have used the recip j/s agreement a number of times and it works great, I make a point of going up when I am boarding and say hello and thanks for the seat, it is always much appreciated. You can have the j/s on my a/c anytime that it is possible to do.
I don't know that courtesy is a part of it but respect for your fellow pilots sure is.
Cheers
Re: Lack of professionalism
Have some pride and professionalism people. Pride in your profession as well. I don't agree with the PA either. Like a lot of us, I have buddies at Jazz and AC and I just don't participate in the petty BS. 
