the new agreement

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Clint23
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Re: the new agreement

Post by Clint23 »

Nothing to do with that whatsoever, it was just that no one had taken that long to upgrade. Now it will be a few more years (6-8) to go left seat, so I believe there will be a new pay scale with the next agreement to show a true 9 yr pay scale for the FO's.

Cheers
CanadaEH wrote:
The pilots, to my knowledge are the only ones that start at the bottom of the scale.
I quickly checked the pay scales for pilots.. I didn't know FO pay froze at the same rate from years 4-9. Why is that? Something to do with the mix of options?
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Smitty
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Re: the new agreement

Post by Smitty »

Nothing to do with that whatsoever, it was just that no one had taken that long to upgrade. Now it will be a few more years (6-8) to go left seat, so I believe there will be a new pay scale with the next agreement to show a true 9 yr pay scale for the FO's.

Cheers
A nine year payscale would be a good addition to the contract as long as a nine year FO doesn't have to take a pay cut to go left seat.
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WJ700
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Re: the new agreement

Post by WJ700 »

Just curious why you'd think 1 for 2 and not 1 for 1?? Why would we not just have the 'normal' YOS scale?? Do you really think that would have a difference on the bottom line? I think you have my home email if you don't want to post the answer here.

Clint23 wrote:Canada, it is industry standard for YOS (Years of Service) for FO's to get 1 for 1 to the skippers pay. Now I am not saying that we should get 1 for 1, perhaps 1 for 2, but we have been told that we get X% of industry standard, and so since this is industry standard, it only seems proper to include that as well.

IMHO

Cheers
CanadaEH wrote:
It already does, only better. A 5 year CSA that goes in flight starts at a 5 yr FA scale on day one and vice a verse a. The pilots, to my knowledge are the only ones that start at the bottom of the scale.
Right, because they are classified as "frontline" (FA/CSA/AS/TAC) and the company allows them to move between jobs and stay at the appropriate step as determined by years. The transferrable skills have been determined to be similar enough to warrant the same scale, I'm going to assume. I'm not going to suggest that a FO and Captain have different skills because at the end of the day they're there to fly an aircraft, right? The difference is, correct me if I'm wrong, the level of responsibility of one over the other? If you were in the Airports dept, and you were a CSA.. the next level of responsibility would be a Shift Lead which comes with a higher pay scale. What is being suggested (if applied to other parts of the Company) is that years served as a Shift Lead would go towards determining pay if that CSA became a Shift Lead. Aside from some exceptions during the reorg. that went on this year, that just won't happen in the Airports world. I'm not going to disagree or agree with that philosophy, but that's the reality of today.

What would the arguement be for years served as an FO being used towards a Captain's salary? I'd like to hear that side of the arguement.

EDITED: Sorry, at what step does a FO's salary surpass a Captain's?
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CanadaEH
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Re: the new agreement

Post by CanadaEH »

I was curious to know why the suggestion was made that 1:1 should be equal in steps. I had no idea idea it was the industry standard, so that's a pretty easy answer. I'm not even going to guess what effect that would have on the bottom line but with salary being our #2 cost, I'd imagine that would be a contentious issue.

If, for example, you're a Captain and are on step #2 and a FO with 5 YOS gets upgraded to the 5yr Captain scale.. how would you feel about that? How would other pilots feel about that? In the Airports world that wouldn't happen. If you get a higher paying job and the starting pay of that new job is less than what you are currently making, you get paid the higher of the two. I don't see why that wouldn't apply to pilots as well.

One question: if you were jumping to a completely different role would you want YOS to be a determining factor in pay (i.e. FA to Maintenance or SSA to People Dept)? Or would YOS only be applied to a similar role (i.e. CSA and Shift Lead @ Airports, TAC and TAC Shift Lead/Crew Chief @ TAC)?
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Tim Tam
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Re: the new agreement

Post by Tim Tam »

Opinion time:

We NEED to allow us (the FO's :wink: ) to slide over with years of service. Why? Because after 6 years at least (for some), it needs to be an incentive to take on the extra responsibility. Once the new scales for FO's get sorted out, why would a 6,7,or 8 year FO want to come over to the left seat for not much more money?

Remember folks, the more you make the more tax they take!

Look at Air Canada - they have senior RP's flying the B777 for similar money than the new Capts. on the Embraer!! Why would they want to take on the left seat role on a smaller jet, flying worse routes, working more days etc... I know we are not AC, but as we grow, and *if* we get bigger Aircraft, then these sorts of things will come up in negotiations.

This was not a problem when we growing leaps and bounds and it only took 2 years to see the left seat. Now, a little different.
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Four1oh
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Re: the new agreement

Post by Four1oh »

Ok then why even split the pay scales at all? All pilots are on the same pay scale, regardless of what seat they sit in :?
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xkbal
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Re: the new agreement

Post by xkbal »

Tim Tam wrote:Opinion time:

We NEED to allow us (the FO's :wink: ) to slide over with years of service. Why? Because after 6 years at least (for some), it needs to be an incentive to take on the extra responsibility. Once the new scales for FO's get sorted out, why would a 6,7,or 8 year FO want to come over to the left seat for not much more money?
Because the pay will top out as an FO and if you want to earn more you will have to slide over, may not be much more the first year but will continue to increase.

I don't have a strong opinion on this, one way or the other. I see the desire for the years of service, that being said I don't think we are quite to the point that some of the other airlines were when they instituted YOS pay. Seem to recall some Air BC folks being right seat in excess of 15 years (could be wrong about exact number).

Next opinion will probably get me in trouble but here goes. I think a capt that has 5 years experience in the left seat is of more value to the company than an FO with 5 years who just upgraded. I know, I know, there are exceptions to every rule but this is in general.
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Four1oh
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Re: the new agreement

Post by Four1oh »

xkbal wrote:
Tim Tam wrote:Next opinion will probably get me in trouble but here goes. I think a capt that has 5 years experience in the left seat is of more value to the company than an FO with 5 years who just upgraded. I know, I know, there are exceptions to every rule but this is in general.
Except that you're absolutely right.
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Donald
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Re: the new agreement

Post by Donald »

Wouldn't the 5 year captain have 7-8 years of service, compared to your 5 year FO who is upgrading to potentially 5th year captain pay?

It's good to see that the senior guys in EVERY company look out for themselves only (see "Life of a new hire" AC thread).
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Ryan Coke2
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Re: the new agreement

Post by Ryan Coke2 »

[quote="Tim Tam"]Opinion time:

We NEED to allow us (the FO's :wink: ) to slide over with years of service. Why? Because after 6 years at least (for some), it needs to be an incentive to take on the extra responsibility. Once the new scales for FO's get sorted out, why would a 6,7,or 8 year FO want to come over to the left seat for not much more money?

Remember folks, the more you make the more tax they take![/quote]


If that is the best argument you can come up with, we'll never get it. :smt012

1 for 2 would be a good tradeoff. 1 for 1 would be nice, but it is somewhat generous. Having said that, it is a very common industry practice.
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yycflyguy
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Re: the new agreement

Post by yycflyguy »

Could you guys please get 15-20%, across the board, pay raise with more time off, better work conditions, better reserve (you guys have that?) and better benefits so when we go to negotiations in 09 we have something to point to? :wink:

Seriously, do not except the status quo as it degrades the entire Canadian airline industry. You guys are the trend setters and coming from the dark side.... we need your help. Glad everyone is still happier than a pig in kaka but if you don't continue to raise the bar it will go in the other direction. Get busy livin' or get busy dyin'.

Suerte amigos.
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commuter
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Re: the new agreement

Post by commuter »

We will do our best but we have no reserve!!
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Tim Tam
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Re: the new agreement

Post by Tim Tam »

[quote="Ryan Coke2

If that is the best argument you can come up with, we'll never get it. :smt012

1 for 2 would be a good tradeoff. 1 for 1 would be nice, but it is somewhat generous. Having said that, it is a very common industry practice.[/quote]

WTF?? Why would you sell yourself short?

Years of service. End of story. You want to sit in the right seat for up to 8 years (which could likely happen) and then slide over to year 4? No chance. 8 years with a company is worth a lot more than that..

[quote="xkbal

Next opinion will probably get me in trouble but here goes. I think a capt that has 5 years experience in the left seat is of more value to the company than an FO with 5 years who just upgraded. I know, I know, there are exceptions to every rule but this is in general.[/quote]

Oh Mamma Mia, you need to really think this one over again.

You are trying to tell me that a 5 year Captain is MORE valuable than a first year Captain???

IT IS THE SAME DAMN JOB.

You really need to understand that not everyone who came here, came from jazz, or CMA, or Georgian, or (insert Turboprop here) company. Guess what? Some guys came here as ex-jet captains from previous lives. You think that they are still valued less than a King Air pilot that cuts there teeth as a jet Captain for the first time? You are unbelievable if you think that way. You are part of the reason why Tier 2 and Tier 3 companies pay what they do - because the Big Wigs think you are not worth more.

You do two flights from A to B. Same two Captains. Same responsibilities. Same result. Why is one worth more than the other?

Awaiting your response.. :|
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DaveP
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Re: the new agreement

Post by DaveP »

hey Tim, sent you a pm a few weeks ago, drop me a note.
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xkbal
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Re: the new agreement

Post by xkbal »

Tim Tam wrote: Oh Mamma Mia, you need to really think this one over again.

You are trying to tell me that a 5 year Captain is MORE valuable than a first year Captain???

IT IS THE SAME DAMN JOB.

You really need to understand that not everyone who came here, came from jazz, or CMA, or Georgian, or (insert Turboprop here) company. Guess what? Some guys came here as ex-jet captains from previous lives. You think that they are still valued less than a King Air pilot that cuts there teeth as a jet Captain for the first time? You are unbelievable if you think that way. You are part of the reason why Tier 2 and Tier 3 companies pay what they do - because the Big Wigs think you are not worth more.

You do two flights from A to B. Same two Captains. Same responsibilities. Same result. Why is one worth more than the other?

Awaiting your response.. :|
Shouldn't bother with this and after this reply I'm done. Knew better and shouldn't have posted the first time.

I agree, same job. However, like or or not I've seen a difference in HOW a job is done by someone with more experience. From what I've seen most people increase in their abilities with practice and experience. The same goes for the captains, who (like it or not) have to deal with more responsibilities including everything from dealing with the FA's to all the other situations that come up involving a flight. Again I know you'll say, "but Joe came from here, doesn't that count? Jane came from here, etc.". There has to be some method for determining pay and it won't be ideal for every situation.

My mistake, following your reasoning we should have 2 pay levels pay every pilot who starts at the company at the top FO pay level and as soon as they upgrade pay them all the top pay level as captain (since they are all doing the same job). There is no need for the different pay levels which is there to reflect your value to the company.

PS don't try and claim the different pay levels are to reflect the cost of living, they aren't or each level would be increasing every year so that a new FO starting today would have the first year pay adjusted for 2 years of cost of living so he could afford the same lifestyle as the FO who started the first year of the agreement. Or lack of lifestyle, I know the starting pay needs to be changed.

Also I do think that we as a rule are underpaid in this industry, however in this life you don't get what you think you're worth you get what you negotiate and someone is willing to pay you.

outta here
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neophyte
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Re: the new agreement

Post by neophyte »

Here is one,

FO's should get bonus for X number of starts performed (performance bonus!!!)

Just messing guys and gals, needed to lighten things up a bit.

:D

Neo
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Ryan Coke2
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Re: the new agreement

Post by Ryan Coke2 »

TT,

All your logic is sound providing your only concern is your narrow self interest, which is apparently all you can see. Anything related to a big picture appears lost on you.
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Rotten Apple #1
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Re: the new agreement

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

Well, I'm a better Captain (my opinion only) at year 4 (now) than I was at year 0-1. Sad but true.

Perhaps a one for two is negotiable with the company, in respect of upgrades. And acceptable to the whole pilot group.

Not sure I see the logic behind carrying years of service, other than that being convention at some airlines.

There is no entitlement to anything from your employer, at least that's what my 8 years in the right seat at four airlines taught me.
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Tim Tam
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Re: the new agreement

Post by Tim Tam »

Gals and guys,

Perhaps I was a little harsh. I can accept that, but I do stand behind my reasoning.

A Captain is a Captain, regardless of time with the company, do you agree? Same responsibility. You might get a little smoother, more efficient, but you are still going from A to B safely. We don't send 'senior' guys when it is dark and dirty, just whomever is scheduled correct?

When we get widebodies, this stuff will come into play or we will have some of the problems that other airlines have with payscales on different types.

Perhaps my YOS argument shall stay with past employers, some things are hard to forget sometimes.. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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yycflyguy
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Re: the new agreement

Post by yycflyguy »

Tim Tam wrote:Gals and guys,

When we get widebodies, this stuff will come into play or we will have some of the problems that other airlines have with payscales on different types.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
So what is the latest rumour on widebodies painted teal? Still talk of the 787? Pretty sure Boeing has firm orders til at least 2012.
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