WTF!!!!!

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
Rotten Apple #1
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 915
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:34 am

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

I see WJ announced a new marketing campaign today that involved a price guaranteed. Pretty innovative for the airline industry. I wonder what pressure that will put on the competitors in the industry? And I wonder what a company does to be able to offer such a guarantee? Perhaps it does it by controlling costs...
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rotten Apple #1
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 915
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:34 am

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

What a treat my last four days of flying were. My colleague left the militaru last year, retiring as a Major after 20 years. He spent the last 13 years in Cold Lake flying Hornets. I don't know about the rest of you, but I would have given a hummer to Dog the Bounty Hunter to fly Hornets. Anyway, he's tickled pink to being doing what he's doing and generally loving the job. Too bad we all didn't have that attitude towards the work.
---------- ADS -----------
 
balfour
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:42 pm

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by balfour »

Okay Balfour. Game on. What is the point of the above?

And perhaps your disgruntled comments belong on the WJPA website. Just curious, could you at least answer a question or two? a) How old are you? b) Have you lost a job before?


No agenda here Jonny. The flight attendant's, CSA's, Crew Sched, Management ect ect all got raises ,but no not us. Like I said before, we were told our time will come as we were under and agreement. FWIW I have lost my job twice in this game. I would like to keep it that way. My age is irrelevant.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Donald
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2368
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:34 am
Location: Canada

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by Donald »

jonny dangerous wrote:I see WJ announced a new marketing campaign today that involved a price guaranteed. Pretty innovative for the airline industry. I wonder what pressure that will put on the competitors in the industry? And I wonder what a company does to be able to offer such a guarantee? Perhaps it does it by controlling costs...
Innovative would be allowing the passenger to get a refund for the difference, not a travel voucher for a future flight.

Todays seat sale....YEG-YQQ for $49 for a 1hr 36min flight....ummm predatory pricing anyone??

YEG-YUL for $99??

No more BS, it's time for Westjet lovers to explain how they can defend this practice.
---------- ADS -----------
 
mikeecho
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:31 am

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by mikeecho »

balfour wrote:
Okay Balfour. Game on. What is the point of the above?

And perhaps your disgruntled comments belong on the WJPA website. Just curious, could you at least answer a question or two? a) How old are you? b) Have you lost a job before?


No agenda here Jonny. The flight attendant's, CSA's, Crew Sched, Management ect ect all got raises ,but no not us. Like I said before, we were told our time will come as we were under and agreement. FWIW I have lost my job twice in this game. I would like to keep it that way. My age is irrelevant.
So, we're back to the no raise piece. That doesn't mean anything unless it's put in some sort of context. Where did the WJ pilots rank in terms of the market for similar roles? I understand (correct me if I am wrong) that the WJ pilot group was considered an industry leader (atleast in Canada). I don't know enough about the pilot agreement, but the way I see it industry leading pay would have entailed a pay raise along the way that brought the pilot group to that position. Perhaps that jump was taken in one bigger shot as opposed to smaller increases.

eg. Salary = $100,000k (for sake of simplicity)
If I were offered a 20% increase on the spot with no futher increase for 4 years or a 5% increase every year for 4 years, it's pretty easy to figure out which options is better.

$100,000 + 20% = $120,000 per year but no raise for 4 years = $480,000 over 4 years
or
$100,000 + 5% = $105,000
$105,000 + 5% = $110,250
$110,250 + 5% = $115,763
$115,763 + 5% = $121,551
= $452,564

The difference is $27,436 more for the one who hasn't had a raise in 4 years. Again, I don't know anything about the pilot agreement, but to get where you are now, there had to be a pretty sizeable raise at somepoint.

With regard to others getting raise, many other roles at WJ have not even been remotely compensated to an equitable level compared to the market and other similar roles until the last 2 years. I took a 40% pay cut to go from AC to WJ doing basically the same job. Only in the last 2 years would I consider myself to be making a comparable salary compared to my former colleagues at AC. In fact, due to their slashing over the last 4-5 years, I am now making more than most colleagues at AC, and fully expect my wage to stay as it is and forego raises for a number of years to stay in line with the market (depite the fact that I still make less than people doing similar work in a non airline environment). It's all about staying competitive in our business.

Donald...FYI re: Predatory Pricing.

The competition bureau defines predatory pricing as follows:
The Bureau considers predatory pricing to be a firm deliberately setting prices to incur losses for a sufficiently long period of time to eliminate, discipline, or deter entry by a competitor, in the expectation that the firm will subsequently be able to recoup its losses by charging prices above the level that would have prevailed in the absence of the impugned conduct, with the effect that competition would be substantially lessened or prevented.

I'll let you do the rest of the research.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Donald
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2368
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:34 am
Location: Canada

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by Donald »

So you are saying that the $49/$99 fares are profitable?

Is this Jetsgo V2.0?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
twinpratts
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1600
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:38 am
Location: The Wild Wild West.
Contact:

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by twinpratts »

How much of this (pricing) is just trying to compete with Big Red?
---------- ADS -----------
 
I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
whiteguy
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1059
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:33 pm
Location: YYC

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by whiteguy »

twinpratts wrote:How much of this (pricing) is just trying to compete with Big Red?
Compete? If AC had started this seat sale WJ would be banging the door down at the competion bureau!
---------- ADS -----------
 
CanadaEH
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 962
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Tuktoyuktuk

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by CanadaEH »

Further to what mikeecho said, one has to understand where the increases came from and why: Three years ago and beyond, CSA's generally received annual increases that were modest at best YOY. Then, two years ago, Durfy wanted the compensation to go from 95% of the market median to 100% of the market median. At the time of that increase, there were outside challenges in keeping and attracting staff due largely in part to the boom in Alberta where one could get a job at Timmy's for $17/hour. Those challenges were starting to create manpower shortages and WJ wasn't able to keep up with training people as employees quit (there's a significant cost associated with that). And last year, the reality of a shrinking airline industry (in terms of people and pay) was again creating challenges with hiring and pay. WJ and PACT decided to look outside the airline industry (with a mix of airline/non-airline positions) and compare similar positions within the tourism industry (i.e. a CSA could be compared to hotel front desk staff) which would more accurately reflect the pay of similar positions. This also created a bump in pay.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Arctic84
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:51 pm

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by Arctic84 »

I like what these pilots have done. They fly the same types of airplanes (on a less complicated route structure than we have at WJ). They are the model we used for our business. Should be a valid comparator.

http://www.planebusiness.com/swa09.pdf
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Red1
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:26 am
Location: East of where I was

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by Red1 »

Can't really compare Southwest as they don't have the same costs as we do.. they don't fly into the most expensive airport in the world..

on the good side it looks like everything is on hold
---------- ADS -----------
 
The force will be with you, always
User avatar
aileron
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:53 pm

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by aileron »

Just read through all 5 pages, and realize this is a hot potato for a lot of folks. Good luck with whatever your perspective.

I was wondering if the new agreement will be addressing first and second year wages pertinent to the newbie lot. I know quite a few people who have "large" lines of credit to get through those years, and I realize the end prize is worth the fight.

I suppose that's the way (lines of credit) because realistically speaking, even thought the minimums have been lowered and lowered, that pilots are being hired with some damn fine time - and usually speaking, the last post they held paid better, which generally allows for folks to get on with their lives (eg have the 1.5 kids, .75 dogs and the lot) which in turn costs more... no new news here, the world over. Just seems funny that even to the leader of the pack (WJ), a company worthy of someone's career years (the new FO), you still need to "ride down the escalator to the mezzanine level to take the elevator to the top!"
---------- ADS -----------
 
mattedfred
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:36 am

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by mattedfred »

Red1 wrote:Can't really compare Southwest as they don't have the same costs as we do.. they don't fly into the most expensive airport in the world..

on the good side it looks like everything is on hold
so i guess WJ only compares itself to SWA when it supports the point their trying to make?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rotten Apple #1
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 915
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:34 am

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

mattedfred wrote:
Red1 wrote:Can't really compare Southwest as they don't have the same costs as we do.. they don't fly into the most expensive airport in the world..

on the good side it looks like everything is on hold
so i guess WJ only compares itself to SWA when it supports the point their trying to make?
mattedfred, conclusion not supported by the facts. A more precise conclusion might be:

"So I guess Red1, you only compare WJ to SWA when it supports the point you are trying to make?"
---------- ADS -----------
 
monkeyspankmasterflex
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 517
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:12 pm

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by monkeyspankmasterflex »

but I would have given a hummer to Dog the Bounty Hunter to fly Hornets
Sorry for the intrude but that line needs to be recognized. Well done Mr Dangerously.

Now back to your rigamorrow.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Flightlevels
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 703
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 7:16 pm

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by Flightlevels »

Hey don't forget Matted only wants us to do well for his benefit.....rrrriiiiggghhhttt. :lol: run along, worry about your own shop.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The Hammer
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 6:46 am

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by The Hammer »

Red1 wrote:Can't really compare Southwest as they don't have the same costs as we do.. they don't fly into the most expensive airport in the world..

on the good side it looks like everything is on hold
They don't fly into the expensive airports because they choose not to. They could have easily chosen to operate out of DFW instead of LUV or ORD instead of Midway but it didn't fit into their plan so they didn't.

WJA chose to move to YYZ in 2003. They operated in southern Ontario for several years before that. YYZ may have been a necessary growth decision but the costs associated were known when they signed on the dotted line. Operationally speaking, there were more than enuf WJ pilots familiar with YYz's operating quirks to give mgmnt an idea of the costs associated.

I think it's hilarious for anybody from WJA to play that card after mocking AC's cost associated with YYZ in the past. I'm guessing your costs in YYZ are nothing to brag about either. Sort of like Rita McNeil and Rosie O'donnell arguing over who's sexier.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Jastapilot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 832
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:42 pm

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by Jastapilot »

before fuel, WJ's casm is 8 cents vs AC's 12,give or take a couple of tenths of a cent.
---------- ADS -----------
 
mikeecho
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:31 am

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by mikeecho »

The Hammer wrote:
Red1 wrote:Can't really compare Southwest as they don't have the same costs as we do.. they don't fly into the most expensive airport in the world..

on the good side it looks like everything is on hold
They don't fly into the expensive airports because they choose not to. They could have easily chosen to operate out of DFW instead of LUV or ORD instead of Midway but it didn't fit into their plan so they didn't.

WJA chose to move to YYZ in 2003. They operated in southern Ontario for several years before that. YYZ may have been a necessary growth decision but the costs associated were known when they signed on the dotted line. Operationally speaking, there were more than enuf WJ pilots familiar with YYz's operating quirks to give mgmnt an idea of the costs associated.

I think it's hilarious for anybody from WJA to play that card after mocking AC's cost associated with YYZ in the past. I'm guessing your costs in YYZ are nothing to brag about either. Sort of like Rita McNeil and Rosie O'donnell arguing over who's sexier.
The whole thing really is apples to oranges.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't DFW and LUV both in Dallas? MDW and ORD are both in Chicago.

YHM is not in YYZ. It may be close, but so is SAN and OAK, yet WN fly to both. SFO isn't cheap, but WN flies there because there is a bigger population base to draw from and they can do it profitably despite the costs.

Furthermore, the move from YHM to YYZ was required if WestJet were to continue to grow in eastern Canada.

Let's face it, YHM is basically a shack, and in 2003, WJ was bursting at the seams in YHM. I know YHM had some pretty bold aspirations to turn the shack into a real airport to support WJ, but the fact was that it would take too long to do so and it would have been a waste of time with WJ business strategy looking towards things like code share and interline agreements.
---------- ADS -----------
 
whiteguy
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1059
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:33 pm
Location: YYC

Re: WTF!!!!!

Post by whiteguy »

mikeecho wrote:The whole thing really is apples to oranges.
......and yet Westjetters compare themselves to AC every day!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”