WestJet Agreement 2.0

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jjj
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by jjj » Thu May 21, 2009 3:52 am

Frog Legs,

So the previous agreements were good enough for you to leave your old job and come work for us.

We have great improvements and pay raises coming down the pipe that far exceed the expectations of the agreement you were hired under - but now all of a sudden it isn't good enough for you?
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Mustard » Thu May 21, 2009 7:04 am

I think someone peed in the kool aid.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by twinpratts » Thu May 21, 2009 7:38 am

Nice work to the WJPA, and everyone envolved.
Now let's roll up our sleeves, and get thru this $hithole of a time in the industry 8) .
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by hercdvr » Thu May 21, 2009 7:48 am

First of all, I don't work for Westjet, but after reading this topic there is something I want to say.
For all the negative people who view this contract as a negative thing,not enough for us blah blah, you have to look at the small steps that hopefully a contract brings. You will NEVER get it all in one shot, most contracts never have giant leaps in pay or working conditions, but if you look at each contract over the years you should hopefully begin to see a trend, and usually it is a positive one.
I work for an airline that has had its up's and down's over the years but I can truly say that having been represented by the third contract in my time here I can say that my working conditions are a lot better than they were in 2000 when I started. And for all the nay-sayers and unhappy people, you do have a option, sign up and help out on the next one. I did and find it to be quite rewarding, either sit and complain or I challenge you to do something about it.

Congrats Westjetters on a new contract
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by WJ700 » Thu May 21, 2009 7:52 am

I'm trying to defend Frog Legs attitude. I just hate the 'go somewhere else if you don't like it' that more than a few like to spout off. With that logic... 40K per year for a new hire pilot would be acceptable from 1996 to 2036.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by KAG » Thu May 21, 2009 9:19 am

This contract will pass and then we can all go back to focusing about on the more important things in life...like which fishing hole will produce, or what to BBQ/drink tonight.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by ivanhoe » Thu May 21, 2009 11:40 am

[quote="WJ700"]I'm trying to defend Frog Legs attitude. I just hate the 'go somewhere else if you don't like it' that more than a few like to spout off.


Really...?

Unless you are willing to stand up and fight for what you want (pissing and moaning on an internet forum does'nt count) , then why would you want to stay and work under such terrible people and sweatshop conditions? I say "fill yer boots bye" if you think the grass is greener on the other side , we will all be better off for it.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Four1oh » Thu May 21, 2009 8:56 pm

C'mon Ivanhoe, what's wrong with deciding something needs improving, and fixing it? Our company is in a constant state of evolution, you won't recognize the place when this 4 year agreement expires, is it really that bad to try to improve an existing contract? Was it really that bad that so many had expected and/or hoped for something in V1.0 that wasn't there?

Hercdrvr is right, it can't all get fixed at once, and anyone who thinks they can 'get it all' in one shot will be sorely disappointed.

V2.0 is a step forward in the RIGHT direction, and we'll have some things changed DURING the next 4 years, and then we'll move forwards again!

Cheers, Previous "no", now a "Yes".
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by mikeecho » Thu May 21, 2009 10:07 pm

Four1oh wrote:C'mon Ivanhoe, what's wrong with deciding something needs improving, and fixing it? Our company is in a constant state of evolution, you won't recognize the place when this 4 year agreement expires, is it really that bad to try to improve an existing contract? Was it really that bad that so many had expected and/or hoped for something in V1.0 that wasn't there?
There's a pretty big difference between being an individual with the conviction and commitment to step up and address an issue and make improvements as compared to an individual who looks down upon and makes disparaging remarks about our ramp agents, management and the WJPA negotiating committee.

Anyone can do the latter (especially on an anonymous internet forum), while the it takes someone with heart to do the former.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Four1oh » Thu May 21, 2009 10:19 pm

mikeecho wrote:
Four1oh wrote:C'mon Ivanhoe, what's wrong with deciding something needs improving, and fixing it? Our company is in a constant state of evolution, you won't recognize the place when this 4 year agreement expires, is it really that bad to try to improve an existing contract? Was it really that bad that so many had expected and/or hoped for something in V1.0 that wasn't there?
There's a pretty big difference between being an individual with the conviction and commitment to step up and address an issue and make improvements as compared to an individual who looks down upon and makes disparaging remarks about our ramp agents, management and the WJPA negotiating committee.

Anyone can do the latter (especially on an anonymous internet forum), while the it takes someone with heart to do the former.

Good point, I agree wholeheartedly.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by El Comat » Fri May 22, 2009 6:30 am

Did the 1st and 2nd year FO pay change in the new agreement? Also, any talk of real bases outside of YYC?

Congrats WJers, hope you raised the bar for those of us in contract negotiations as we speak!

EC
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by WJ700 » Fri May 22, 2009 8:21 am

ivanhoe wrote:
WJ700 wrote:I'm trying to defend Frog Legs attitude. I just hate the 'go somewhere else if you don't like it' that more than a few like to spout off.


Really...?

Unless you are willing to stand up and fight for what you want (pissing and moaning on an internet forum does'nt count) , then why would you want to stay and work under such terrible people and sweatshop conditions? I say "fill yer boots bye" if you think the grass is greener on the other side , we will all be better off for it.

I really have to give up typing and get a transcription company to help put out my thoughts lately. I meant to say: I'm 'not' trying to defend Ivanhoe's attitude.

I'm trying to defend the right to push for change; in an intelligent way of course. I get quite sick of the "If you don't like it, leave" people (which is a small, but annoying group). After this agreement passes, WestJet will now have one of the highest starting pilot wages in Canada. I think it will be quite rewarding to go to work with a new hire, see him enjoying his or her new job... AND earning a survivable starting wage. In turn, that forces Air Canada, Transat, Sunwing ect. to raise their starting wage, and improves the bar for experienced pilots in Canada over all. You wouldn't get that change with the 'if you don't like it, leave' crowd.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by ivanhoe » Fri May 22, 2009 8:35 am

There's a pretty big difference between being an individual with the conviction and commitment to step up and address an issue and make improvements as compared to an individual who looks down upon and makes disparaging remarks about our ramp agents, management and the WJPA negotiating committee.

Anyone can do the latter (especially on an anonymous internet forum), while the it takes someone with heart to do the former.[/quote]


Exactly my point. Thanks.

I have no problem with those looking to improve conditions. I have a HUGE problem with those that are sitting back and disparaging those who are actually doing so. Let's face it...there are some that are way out in left field and will never be satisfied (even at WestJet). I would prefer that type to take their corrosive attitudes elsewhere so the rest of us can get on with doing what we do best.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by WJ700 » Fri May 22, 2009 10:21 am

Seems I've come under some sort of typing retardation... Froglegs... not Ivanhoe with the attitude...

I'll go back to lurking as posting pre-coffee, or apre-beer is not working for me lately. Out to enjoy the sunny Westcoast today. :oops: :oops:
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by balfour » Fri May 22, 2009 12:55 pm

El Comat wrote:Did the 1st and 2nd year FO pay change in the new agreement? Also, any talk of real bases outside of YYC?

Congrats WJers, hope you raised the bar for those of us in contract negotiations as we speak!

EC

Don't have the numbers in front of me but going by memory,the first and second year f/o pay went up by 44% and 38% respectively. Nothing on bases yet. There has been a promise from Durfy to look into how/if the ports can be improved. Good luck on your contract!
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by KAG » Fri May 22, 2009 8:41 pm

First year works out to just over 50K salary, ESP, options/RSU , profit share on top of that (65K ish). Second year is around 55K+. it's a nice jump!
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by frog legs » Sat May 23, 2009 10:23 am

blahblah-why don't you leave-blahblah - typical

Here is the deal:

Rampies. I meant them no disrespect. I was justtrying to say that pilots, more than most any other group (mtce excluded) are in it for the long haul. I like TAC. They are hard working and do a great job. But point to one who's here for a long term tac career and I'll buy you a timmys. I used TAC as an example. Pilots have different benefits needs than most groups. And the industry standard reflects that. Our benefits are so far below the standard that it's laughable. And that is entirely due to the fact that we are beholden to the rest of the company in the name of "fairness".

Management. I am 95% certain that 95% of them mean well and are trustworthy. Durf is in the 95% of the 95% (that means I think he is a good guy). I reserve 5% for natural cynicism. As should you.

Our reps. Look. They are all nice people. They work hard and mean well. Perhaps I was a little harsh. Beer does that. I just think that they lost their way, and are too easily influenced. When one of them stood up for what he believed in, look where it got him. Effectively pushed out of the way for not toeing the line and pretty much the subject of a smear campain. Educate yourself. Until this system is fixed, you will not get a larger number of people willing to run. Why would they? So they can be muzzled and punted? No thanks.

The current deal is fine. It's a good start. As I said, it's what should have been out in the first place. I can live with it. In 4 years time we can add to it.

That is my opinion, and I am not alone in thinking it. Deep down even you koolaiders know I speak the truth, but you have to circle the wagons and "prove" your westjettitude with ignorant comments like "pack your bags" or "go back to where you came from".
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Last edited by frog legs on Sun May 24, 2009 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by mikeecho » Sat May 23, 2009 11:25 am

frog legs wrote:blahblah-why don't you leave-blahblah - typical

Rampies: I meant them no disrespect. I was merely trying to convey the fact that pilots, more than most any other group (mtce excluded) are in it for the long haul. I like TAC. They are hard working and do a great job. But point to one who's here for a long term career and I'll buy you a timmys. I used TAC as an example.
Without giving it a seconds worth of thought, I can think of a about 2 dozen hard working and committed people who have and will make a career in TAC. Probably 60-70% would be looking to move within the company once they finish their education and make a career at WJ.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by mattedfred » Sat May 23, 2009 3:51 pm

KAG wrote:First year works out to just over 50K salary, ESP, options/RSU , profit share on top of that (65K ish). Second year is around 55K+. it's a nice jump!
so using balfour's 44% increase the starting salary used to be around $25K?
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Ryan Coke2 » Sat May 23, 2009 5:41 pm

frog legs wrote:blahblah-why don't you leave-blahblah - typical
Our reps: Look. They are all nice people. They work hard and mean well. Perhaps I was a little harsh. Beer does that. I just think that they lost their way, and are too easily influenced. When one of them stood up for what he believed in, look where it got him. Effectively pushed out of the way for not toeing the line and pretty much the subject of a smear campain. Educate yourself. The system is broken. Until it is fixed, you will not get a larger number of people willing to run. Why would they? So they can be muzzled and exiled? No thanks.
Diverse and contradictory opinions are good things, and are required. The people that have those must speak up, but still be able to function as part of a team and pull in the same direction. If they are unable to accept the decision as made by the group and move forward, they become an impedance to progress.

The same as life on the flight deck; we need challenges, questions, opinions, and accountability. We also need to work as a team once a decision is made. If a person can't do that, they harm flight safety more than help it. I see the same situation here.

Getting kicked out of 2 separate PA executives, years apart with very different groups, takes some special skills.
mattedfred wrote:so using balfour's 44% increase the starting salary used to be around $25K?
No. 25k to 50k would be a 100% increase. Actually it is about a 25% increase in base (40k-50k).
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by WJ700 » Sat May 23, 2009 8:57 pm

"Getting kicked out of 2 separate PA executives, years apart with very different groups, takes some special skills"

You can believe that if you want, but there is much more to the story. Too bad that here, or anywhere online, isn't the place to discuss it.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by mattedfred » Sun May 24, 2009 6:01 am

WOW is my math ever bad sometimes. Sorry balfour and KAG and thanks Ryan Coke2.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by rudder » Sun May 24, 2009 6:02 am

2 rounds of "bargaining".

1 effectively "rejected" T/A.

50% plus 1 ratification formula.

Sounds like a union environment to me. But what's missing?

- ability to differentiate benefit requirements from other employee classifications (one size fits all formula)
- transparency in developing bargaining agenda
- applicable provisions of the CLC as it applies to certified bargaining agents.

Why not take the first step and certify the WJPA? You will require a constitution and bylaws (in other words - a set of rules). You can elect representatives (and remove them). You can elect a negotiating committee (or remove them). You can set the bargaining agenda (or modify it).

Go ahead, flame away....
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Rotten Apple #1 » Sun May 24, 2009 7:23 am

Now if we did unionize and consequently ended up with seniority driven schedule bidding (a given), how long would it be before Frog Legs could hold weekends off? Christmas?

What about the inevitable reserve coverage system? How high up the list would an F/O have to be before he/she could avoid reserve days. Very sucky for the YHZ commuters.

And then how long before the FAs follow suit and join CUPE and mtce joins IAMAW?

The drama would be awesome though. Think of all the fun things we could talk about in the cockpit, you know, how management is screwing us all the time.

And grievances. Man those are great.

Where do I sign?
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Four1oh » Sun May 24, 2009 8:37 am

jonny dangerous wrote:Now if we did unionize and consequently ended up with seniority driven schedule bidding (a given), how long would it be before Frog Legs could hold weekends off? Christmas?

What about the inevitable reserve coverage system? How high up the list would an F/O have to be before he/she could avoid reserve days. Very sucky for the YHZ commuters.

And then how long before the FAs follow suit and join CUPE and mtce joins IAMAW?

The drama would be awesome though. Think of all the fun things we could talk about in the cockpit, you know, how management is screwing us all the time.

And grievances. Man those are great.

Where do I sign?
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