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50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

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yycflyguy

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:39 am

Rank 10

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:18 pm
Posts: 2350

True North wrote:

yycflyguy wrote:

I guess AC's utilization of the smaller E190 on smaller sectors has placed enough pressure on WJ to go with some turbo-props. CR et al must be in the ivory tower cackling with joy that their domestic competition is moving away from their efficient business plan.

Yeah...I'm sure that's what's happening. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I'm sure running Q400's is super lucrative. Cost control buddy.

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Old fella

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:46 am

Rank 8

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 760

Rotten Apple #1 wrote:

Not sure what you mean. My life isn't going to change regardless if we get big airplanes, small airplanes, or no airplanes. I'll still work 15-16 days a month, stay in hotels 12 or so days a month, and still have trouble convincing my large intestine to function prior to leaving the hotel on an early morning YYT departure.

Your large one (intestine) is in knots in that you can't drop a "three coiler" in the morning bright and early. Can't be the YYT I know, me lad. Lots of spots to loosen up literally and figuratively, was way back in my time early 80’s. Duke of Duckworth, Ship Inn and Christians, good haunts for the Air Canada B727 crews. Got to know a few of them, quaffing way too much ale, pissing off wife (girlfriend then) dropping coilers in the bottom of the white bowl – when I could see it.
Fun times, but I am older now!!!

:smt040

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True North

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:55 am

Rank 3

Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 2:39 am
Posts: 183

yycflyguy, you should obviously be running an airline. You've got it ALL figured out.

If WJ can run a mainline operation at a significant cost advantage over AC I would guess they could do the same with a turboprop regional operation. So yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of giggling going on in the ivory tower at AC.

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rudder

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:57 am

Rank 8

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 815

yycflyguy wrote:

Unless AC has been flying E190's to Windsor and Fort St John then the cackling is all happening at WJ world headquarters in YYC. WJ has been all over AC domestic mainline routes for years and now they have set their sites on the AC second tier routes that for the most part have been monopolies or recently shared with Porter. The name of the game will be to feed the growing WJ medium haul operation and international codeshare network.

The simple truth is that there is not room for three carriers on any single domestic route. Something has to give. Assuming that AC is able to step up its game, I wouldn't want to be the racoon. This is going to have an incredibly negative impact on domestic yields in 2013 as excess capacity is added with the introduction of Westjet Express and the never ending seat sales courtesy of the Porter Ponzi scheme.

I don't expect that any airline stock is going up any time soon. The days of rational competition are seemingly coming to a close.

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DanJ

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:08 am

Rank 4

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:12 am
Posts: 214

pika wrote:

Quote:

Why would they start another company if the idea was to make it easy for pilots to move from jets to props and vice versa?

Why do you think that is the idea behind getting another aircraft type?

I don't. I was responding to the post I quoted. Seems pretty clear to me. Obviously WS isn't planning to make it possible for pilots to move between jets and props. Otherwise, they would just add the props to the WS fleet, instead of starting a new company. The company obviously doesn't want to be encumbered by whatever agreements are already in place with the jet pilots.

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Legacy

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:42 am

Rank 5

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:05 am
Posts: 396

DanJ wrote:

pika wrote:

Quote:

Why would they start another company if the idea was to make it easy for pilots to move from jets to props and vice versa?

Why do you think that is the idea behind getting another aircraft type?

Huh???? From what I have read on the memo today, it is TOTALLY possible to move between the two companies. This is getting funny actually for to reasons. 1) most ppl here have no idea what is going on. They all speculate. 2) some pilots think they are business gods and think they know the best way WJs path should be.

If some of you think you are so smart then why arent YOU CEO of a company. Pilots, in general, know sh** about the complexities of running an airline so please quit acting like you know whats best.

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bmc

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:45 am

Rank 11

Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 6:06 am
Posts: 3618
Location: Switzerland

Legacy wrote:

If some of you think you are so smart then why arent YOU CEO of a company. Pilots, in general, know sh** about the complexities of running an airline.

I hate to agree with this, but you're absolutely right.

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Disco Stu

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:44 pm

Rank 7

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:26 am
Posts: 679
Location: Springfield, USA

So race to the bottom at WJ Regional?

wholly owned subsidiary, separate OC and list
Pilots will earn 80% of regional industry median (80% of Jazz, Porter, Hawkair, Perimeter, North Cariboo)
Flow through to mainline at 4 to 1 ratio with off the street
Mainline to Regional and back once in a career but go to year 1 payscale and conditions of the regional, so poverty wages and no guarantee to get back to mainline unless a "spot" opens up
Mainline block hour and fin guarantee of 2012 levels going forward but can change due to "economic uncertainty"
Only eligible for 10% ESP vs 20% at mainline
employee pays 50% of benefits vs 30% at mainline
Profit sharing same as at mainline
In event of layoff at mainline you bump down into regional

80% of regional median? Are you serious?

I hope the WJPA says no to this in a BIG way.

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Squid

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:05 pm

Rank 4

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:35 pm
Posts: 209
Location: Timmins

I dunno stu,
You must have some time off from collecting signatures to displace guys in our own shop. Here we have an AC union guy telling WJ shame! Lol.

As for the race to the bottom, it's the same story as before when WJ first opened. Captains making 60k etc.. Everyone said they are ruining the industry. Now look.

I have a buddy who has been there 11 yrs and he paid 100 k in tax alone for 2011...

So what you are saying is for example a 1000 hr pilot working in the bush could get on there and have a flow thru to mainline( the 1 to 4 ratio is a minimum btw) sounds like a solid carreer. Clearly there is a different expectation here vs a guy with 5000 hrs. These aren't poverty wages IMO...
Flying for a stable company, taking a stick to AC, equal travel benefits, full healthcare and support from mainline, flow thru, no double standard, new airplanes, mainline leadership. I really can't see the problem here because these guys are all playing in the same sandbox to promote growth and go wide body down the road. They will feel like they are contributing unlike jazz. Because they have something to gain as well. 80 percent median pay is a moot point.

Cost is king

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KAG

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:36 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:24 am
Posts: 3232

Still LOTS to be hammered out over the next year or so.
And Disco, its not the WJPA who gets to vote this down, it's the WJ pilot group.
The WOWCON are to hammerd out post vote, so pay and such may end up being industry standard or closer to it.
Time will tell. I'm holding my opinions until I sit through a town hall meeting, ask a ton of questions and have some time to digest this.
Lots of change, and an exciting time.

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rudder

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:39 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 815

If that is an accurate representation of what WJ management wants then I am disgusted. You are effectively being asked to subsidise below market fares by employing below market staff. Where does this all end?

If the WJPA supports this or anything that remotely looks like this then they will find themselves rightfully labelled as pariah's by their peers. This looks like an offer of indentured servitude for Westjet Express pilots. It is yet another proposed step in the race for the bottom and what you do here will affect many others.

I said before that these type arrangements are the seeds of cancer that will kill the profession. I am hoping that WJPA is truly a grass roots organisation and that the members will speak out loudly against this. Show some respect for yourselves and those that are not yet hired. Just imagine what the offer for the 757/767/787 will be. And while you are at it - how about a B scale for new WJ mainline pilots as well. It won't affect YOU so why not go for it?

Take a break from staring at the stock ticker and take a good look in the mirror. It's gut check time.

p.s. I guess that management figured out how to keep 737 FO's from bidding to Q400 Capt. They made the deal so bad that it would make no sense to do so.

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aileron

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:40 pm

Rank 5

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:53 am
Posts: 386

rudder wrote:

B_Boomer_54 wrote:

aileron wrote:

Hmm, we have 26 allready... Big task on your hands, sure hope you don't bite off more than you can chew. Good luck!

I think you guys are the ones who need to be worried. By the sounds of it, you are.

Way to go westjet.

If PAH were a publicly traded stock it would be dropping like a stone today. RD estimated it's value at $450M in the aborted IPO attempt. Wonder what that number is now?

If I was PAH I would call Calgary and beg them to buy it for a fraction of $450M.

Ah, first of all we're not in YYC - that's coyote country, not raccoon territory; you'll likely be deploying you're fleet close to home at first. And actually contrary to your beliefs this is good for us and we'll be glad to see our friends out here (my enemy's enemy is my friend?). Your task is still big IMHO, it isn't quite the same as a privately held company as ourselves. But you can do it, I know you're big boys! Oh, and by the way, we're not worried - not like we were with Maple :wink:

PS I hope you go with the Q400

GOOD LUCK!

Last edited by aileron on Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bede

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:27 pm

Rank 10

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:52 pm
Posts: 2070

yycflyguy and rudder,

Usually you guys have half decent posts, but you guys are out to lunch on this one. You fail to understand that it is demand that raises wages, not your useless unions.

When WJ started, they paid below average wages because it was all the company could afford. However, they made up for it by compensating pilots similar to the way management is compensated- through stock options. More Canadians are flying today than they were before WJ was on the scene. They took passengers that would never have flown with AC pre-WJ. Effectively 1000 pilots have jobs because of WJ- and none of those jobs would be at AC if WJ didn't exist. Who knows, maybe if WJ wasn't around you wouldn't have a job because the WJ pilots would have stayed at the regionals?

The same is true with WJ Express. I don't know what the WAWCON will be, but they will have to attract pilots from somewhere. It's pretty easy for a pilot with a few thousand hours and a good attitude to find work these days and often, it's for pretty good money. WJ Express will have to attract these pilots by offering suitable WAWCON. More pilot jobs= higher wages for all pilots.

I would argue that WJA pilots have the best wages and schedules in this country compared to the average AC and Jazz pilots. What makes you think WJ wants to ruin it's culture by starting a US style regional?

BTW Rudder, what do your 757 skippers make? Hello kettle...

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watermeth

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:59 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:32 pm
Posts: 55

Quote:

Pilots, in general, know sh** about the complexities of running an airline so please quit acting like you know whats best.

absolutely true and that's why I'm gonna give my 2cts here

Within 2 years WJ buys 51% of porter's shares after their IPO and operates a single fleet type spread all over canada from west to east, connecting main hubs to "remote" airports and thus creating a reliable domestic network.
this is paving the way for transoceanic routes with widebody aircraft in let say 6/7 years or less. WJ will then be able to offer international flights with connections on its own network, keeping the same culture and able to offer the exact same product with the exact same safety standards and full operational control from HKG/LHR to i.e. CYPE.
WJ becomes an international carrier without having to deal with tier3 operators and all the BS agreement coming with it, and can rely on itself.
in 10/15 years WJ is AC's main worldwide competitor ... etc.....

if WJ has been able to grow respecting their commitment to people, they should be able to do it while incorporating a new type in their ops.
however working conditions will always suffer from growth when having to control operational costs to remain a "low cost company" and to sustain barrel's increasing price, unless the employee's satisfaction is such a priority that upper management keeps unions away, which is a real big challenge with a 2000+ pilots and flight attendant groups.

edited : +1 with bede's post.

I'm kidding here of course but more seriously: well done WJ, keep up the good job.

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rudder

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:48 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 815

Bede wrote:

BTW Rudder, what do your 757 skippers make? Hello kettle...

$158/hr shared equally between 1500 Jazz pilots. Plus generous pension and benefits that make the total compensation package on par with Transat skippers. Sounds fair, don't you think?

WJ can afford to pay market rates, your own 737 pay indicates that is true. That should apply to WJ Express pilots as well as it is certain that their work rules will be the CAR's and there will be no cost inefficient rigs or guarantees. The Achille's Heel for an operator is not wages, it is inefficiency.

What is the fair rate for WJ Express pilots on the Q400? It should be the rate that makes it a reasonable option for a current WJ 737 FO to bid Q400 Capt. And you think that is a bad idea?

You guys are not an island and yes, others are affected by the outcome. WJ is well known for innovation. Please innovate. The template that was used in 1996 is way out of date. This looks and smells more like AC/Skyregional than a WJ concept.

WJ normally impresses the hell out of me. I hope that can continue. Best of luck.

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Disco Stu

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:54 pm

Rank 7

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:26 am
Posts: 679
Location: Springfield, USA

Shit wages and benefits because of the WJ mainline carrot dangling at the end of the stick. 10 pilots from the regional can be hired at the mainline for every 40 off the street.....that carrot could go rotten in a hurry.

It's a slippery slope.

80% of the MEDIAN wage. Not AVERAGE. Be very, very careful.....

Just because the ability exists to move up to the wages and benefits of WJ does not mean that the pilots at WJR should be paid less than their industry peers.

If this was a new start up not connected to WJ and with no flow through agreement, would you still think these wages and benefits are acceptable to fly a Q400?

Just because you work at WJ doesn't mean you have to agree with every hair brained idea your management team comes up with.

Stand up for your profession. Next thing you know come contract time the mainline will be asked for concessions to match the discounted wages at the regional.

Be very, very careful.

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Bede

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:27 pm

Rank 10

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:52 pm
Posts: 2070

Rudder,

What is the rate for the DH8 guys (top and bottom)?

Disco Stu,

I think you're full of crap. If WJ goes through with this idea it will benefit WJ, their shareholders and all lower time pilots who now have another regional airline to choose from. If all the regionals pay substandard wages, they can always stay at their higher paying 703 jobs (which pay much better now that they have to compete for pilots with the regionals.

Regional airlines are a reality and I have no idea why there is so much opposition to their existence. Would some of you prefer an industry with only a mainline and no jobs- like in the early 80's.

WJA employees seem to like this idea. I bet every flight instructor, and 703 pilot likes this idea. The only opposition seems to be from those at AC. Grow up boys and be thankful we all have good paying jobs.

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rudder

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:40 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 815

Bede wrote:

Rudder,

What is the rate for the DH8 guys (top and bottom)?

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... ation.html

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Legacy

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:49 pm

Rank 5

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:05 am
Posts: 396

After going through the info, it seems like a fair deal although I would like to see an approximate number instead of 80% median pay. IMHO opinion, for a q400, I think we should be looking at 75-85K starting wage. Heck the are king air/1900/metro pilots out there making 50-60k for flying a 19 pax plane. So what do you fairly pay a 75 seater skipper? So until I see an actual pay scale, days worked per month I am sitting on the fence with this one.

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Disco Stu

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:52 pm

Rank 7

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:26 am
Posts: 679
Location: Springfield, USA

Bede

Just like I said to our Negotiating Committee, I would rather see fewer jobs if they pay well than a lot of jobs that pay shit. Not every pilot at the regional will be hired at the mainline. Those pilots deserve to be stuck at 80% median wages with shitty benefits? Having to pay 50% of their benefit costs with no pension and only a 10% ESP? True, if people don't like the compensation they don't have to take the job, but we all know that won't happen and it doesn't make it right.

Hope you 737 FOs like being FOs. Say goodbye to growth at the mainline as flying is transferred to the regional. Sure the 737s will be redeployed as they are replaced on certain routes by the prop, but the only growth will be at the regional.

Believe what you want Bede

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Stu Pidasso

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:18 pm

Rank 3

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:55 pm
Posts: 110

(80% of Jazz, Porter, Hawkair, Perimeter, North Cariboo)

My crude math puts that at around 60K/year for a Q400 Captain. "Race to the Bottom," we all carry a piece of that cross.

This may be a new low, the US style regionals paying poverty wages. Worse of all - Pilots in the industry will defend it.

All in the name of defending their respective employer, instead of defending the Profession.

The few at WJ pulling the big T4's fly 18 - 20 days / Month, no offence guys but you can keep it.

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Legacy

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:30 pm

Rank 5

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:05 am
Posts: 396

Disco Stu wrote:

Disco, again, you are acting like you should be the CEO. I agree with you on the pay, but like I said until I see actual numbers I will not form an opinion. As for the 10% ESP, i am not too sure how I feel about that one. As for the 737 FOs like being FOs? At a 2011 t4 that will be 125k+, its not so bad but there are about 500 FOs here that are more concerned about THEIR time in the right seat than you so rest assured they know more of the details than you do about their career. Only growth at the regional? Well its slowed down quite a bit at the 737 level right now so do you think much will really change for the worse if we bring aboard dash 8's? I doubt it. If anything it will help keep the 737s more full. We werent going into the smaller communites anyway with the 737s so its not like the 8's will be taking away work from the 37.

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Bede

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:32 pm

Rank 10

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:52 pm
Posts: 2070

Disco Stu wrote:

I would rather see fewer jobs if they pay well than a lot of jobs that pay shit.

Of course you would- you have a good job. I'm sure your tune would change if you were out of work. I'd rather make $80k at a job I know I'm not going to lose than $100k at a job where I don't know what's going to happen next.

Disco Stu wrote:

Not every pilot at the regional will be hired at the mainline. Those pilots deserve to be stuck at 80% median wages with shitty benefits? Having to pay 50% of their benefit costs with no pension and only a 10% ESP?

I don't know where you come up with this, but I'll assume it's true. Not every Jazz pilot go to mainline and Jazz is still a decent career job (at least when I was there). This will still be an excellent regional job.

Disco Stu wrote:

Hope you 737 FOs like being FOs. Say goodbye to growth at the mainline as flying is transferred to the regional. Sure the 737s will be redeployed as they are replaced on certain routes by the prop, but the only growth will be at the regional.

I like being an FO, but would obviously prefer to be a captain. I know this won't happen for a very long time. So be it. You are correct, a lot of the 737 flying will go to the regional such as the YYZ-YUL that is better served by DH8. 737 will be redeployed to better routes such as the Caribbean from smaller centres (YXX, YQT, etc). That's the flying I love doing. Little work, no hassle. I would rather be an FO at a highly profitable airline than a Captain at a marginal one.

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Bede

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Rank 10

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:52 pm
Posts: 2070

rudder wrote:

Bede wrote:

Rudder,

What is the rate for the DH8 guys (top and bottom)?

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... ation.html

I am familiar with those numbers and am familiar with how status pay works. You gave me the B757 "rate" that is divided amongst the pilots. But there is also a CRJ "rate" and a DH8 "rate". The reason the top CRJ captain makes $111 is because it is raised by the B757 rate.

If you got rid of every airplane other than the B757, all senior captains would earn $158. If you got rid of every airplane other than the DH8, you'd be making far less than $111. That's the number I'm interested in and the number WJE should be paying their top drivers.

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The Fish

Post subject: Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:44 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:01 pm
Posts: 75

rudder wrote:

Bede wrote:

Rudder,

What is the rate for the DH8 guys (top and bottom)?

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... ation.html

Rudder I had the same question as Bede,
But can you de-factor the rate like u did for the 757, IE what is the cash allocated to a dash skipper before it's inflated with the 757 and RJ wage.

Cheers

Fish

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