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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:06 am 
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mbav8r wrote:
Nope, not part of the problem as far as I can see, Bede maybe you can help me out.
Why is it ok to lower the bar in the name of profit?


I can answer that- because if a company is not profitable, there are no jobs for any of us.

Seriously? We're the highest paid narrow body pilots in this country and near the top in all of North America. And we're lowering the bar?

Let's assume WJ pilots got the 757 flying. There would be 6 FO's upgraded to captain for 6 months of the year, so basically 3 per year. A captain earns about $50/hr more, so, averaging across the entire pilot group, each of us would earn an extra $140/yr. In turn, the company would lose millions to save one route. The loss in profit share alone would be more than $140/yr. Sorry, but I'm not that selfish, and I don't vote for contracts based on what the Jazz pilots want.

You guys can continue with slogans like "lowering the bar", "race to the bottom", and the rest of the crap they put out in union magazines, but we're all governed by the laws of economics. The difference is that some of us understand that, and others do not.

BTW, WJA never undercut the Jazz 757 operation. TC were losing money on it, and found it was cheaper to buy seats on WJ than to operate a fleet of 6 aircraft- it's not like we took over your 757 aircraft. Despite my reputation as a capitalist pig, I am honestly sorry that Jazz lost the TC contract. I wish you guys all the best.



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:37 pm 
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As a Jazz pilot, I too was sorry to see the TC flying end. At the start, it seemed like a real opportunity for diversity for us. It was fun while it lasted. But one of the realities, is that all-inclusives operate on absolutely razor thin margins, and it absolutely makes sense to buy seats on someone else's aircraft. After TC started to liquidate a lot of their European operation, we could see it coming here. Loads out of YVR were poor.. 60-odd on a 215 seat aircraft at times. TC are not out of the water by any means, but for now this makes way more sense.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:13 pm 
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I have to laugh when I hear Jazz pilots saying that WJ is lowering the bar by doing the TC flying. As a former 757 Captain at Skyservice I saw our company undercut by Jazz. We were told at the time Jazz was the lowest paid 757 Captains in the world. I don't know if that is true, but that is what our union told us. So I wouldn't be too quick in flinging the "lower the bar" slogan.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:03 pm 
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haironfire wrote:
... but that is what our union told us. .


SKYPAC told you a lot that was not true. Go read the court files on the insolvency and liquidation of SkyService and the truth is all there. Your company was dead due to ill conceived ownership financing structure and the poorly timed loss of the TUI contract. The only ones that knew in advance were in the SSV Executive suite but they never bothered to tell you. Your model would not have withstood the current TC restructuring any better than Jazz. The difference between Jazz and SkyService is that the Jazz pilots still have jobs even without TC. And you clearly do not understand the Jazz pay system. Operating the 757's added $$ to every Jazz pilots paycheck. The loss of the 757's will have the same effect in reverse. But that loss is buffered by the Jazz pay system and the individual pay reductions will not change anybody's standard of living.

The business is constantly changing and the answer is to get out in front of it rather than get run over by it. Kudos to WJ for breaking the code.



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:04 am 
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bede...not even close...but love the support of your airline....might as well.....
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... hwest.html



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:45 pm 
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rudder wrote:
haironfire wrote:
... but that is what our union told us. .


SKYPAC told you a lot that was not true. Go read the court files on the insolvency and liquidation of SkyService and the truth is all there. Your company was dead due to ill conceived ownership financing structure and the poorly timed loss of the TUI contract. The only ones that knew in advance were in the SSV Executive suite but they never bothered to tell you. Your model would not have withstood the current TC restructuring any better than Jazz. The difference between Jazz and SkyService is that the Jazz pilots still have jobs even without TC. And you clearly do not understand the Jazz pay system. Operating the 757's added $$ to every Jazz pilots paycheck. The loss of the 757's will have the same effect in reverse. But that loss is buffered by the Jazz pay system and the individual pay reductions will not change anybody's standard of living.

The business is constantly changing and the answer is to get out in front of it rather than get run over by it. Kudos to WJ for breaking the code.


Well as sour as the "we still have jobs" comment sucks to read. I understand your post and your pay. But comparing a T4 by position and a salary by a group is not the same sorry. You can tell yourselves that all you want. When you file your taxes at the end of the year you ask yourself one question. Am I happy I am getting paid this much and am I worth this little? The reason the industry pays more for larger aircraft is obvious and as it should be. The AC B777 guys making 240 bucks and hour deserves it no? The guy flying the embraer should make less? Huge difference in plane types dude sorry. You guys had a one of where a larger plane got entered into the mix for a short time and you mitigated it in my opinion the only way you could. Keep everyone happy. Which is a good thing. A survival thing which you mention and I agree fully. However I do not agree with you at all about the pay thing. Starting left seat at SSV was 120k and right seat was 62k regardless of your tiered years of service pay at jazz. Your senior 757 drivers at the end of these last 2 years made less than a captain did at ssv end of story. Regardless of spreading the money across the board and I think thats where my coheart is coming from. So yes some see the glass half full. Hard T4 numbers. As for a comparison between SSV and Jazz. You are a crewing company much like SSV was. Your just bigger. You kinda come across a little strong in your post but like ssv you are one contract away from the street also no? If AC sends work to the boys at Skyregional from you are you not in trouble? I think there allot of similarities between ssv and jazz.



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:09 pm 
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B757FO wrote:
I think there allot of similarities between ssv and jazz.


Perhaps. The Jazz pilots bear no ill will towards the SSV pilots just as they should not bear any ill will towards the Jazz pilots. But the Jazz pilots will not be caught unprepared if and when the dominoes start to fall. That is just one of the advantages of being a part of large international pilot union rather than a boutique association with limited perspective and limited resources.



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:55 pm 
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Unfortunately the race to the bottom continues and we as pilots get sucked into it. Jazz undercut Skyservice when it came to the TC contract. Now Skyregional is trying to undercut Jazz when it comes to the AC contract. There are a number of former Skyservice pilots at Skyregional. I don't believe there is any bad blood between the pilots personally, but i really hate how this industry works. I wish that College of pilots could equal the playing field and make it fair for everyone. Pipe-dream maybe?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:31 pm 
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.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:48 am 
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haironfire wrote:
We were told at the time Jazz was the lowest paid 757 Captains in the world.


Here is the "highest paid" remaining 757 operator based in Canada - Morningstar:

http://canadianpilotpay.com/?page_id=568

Quite a few Jazz B757 pilots T4'd above these numbers.



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:46 pm 
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TC is buying seats on WS to the point we can add 3 additional aircraft (lease extensions) to Southern routes. They've already been buying seats on us - predominantly in Western Canada - and have found the arrangement to be beneficial for them. It certainly is for Westjet. Great news for us.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Just like the flying public will go for the cheapest fare, the airlines in the industry have to go for the lowest cost. It comes down to being competitive as a business.

I don't like paycuts! I've taken one every time I have gotten on with a bigger company. But in a sense... That's business!

Having said that, if you give a little short term, the long term usually is gain...

All I see here is a Canadian company with Canadian crews gaining more flying. Race to the bottom? I think it's being competitive.

Anyways... What was the topic?



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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:47 am 
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Quote:
Flying Nutcracker
All I see here is a Canadian company with Canadian crews gaining more flying. Race to the bottom? I think it's being competitive.

Anyways... What was the topic?


Does this seem like Canadian crews gaining more flying to you? The summer transatlantic capacity would have been Jazz(Canadian) pilots not a wet lease with UK pilots!
Quote:
rudder wrote,
The rumour mill is 3 G-reg 757's crewed by TC UK for winter 2012/2013.

This could also lead to summer capacity for transatlantic.

Quote:
haironfire wrote,
Unfortunately the race to the bottom continues and we as pilots get sucked into it. Jazz undercut Skyservice when it came to the TC contract. Now Skyregional is trying to undercut Jazz when it comes to the AC contract. There are a number of former Skyservice pilots at Skyregional. I don't believe there is any bad blood between the pilots personally, but i really hate how this industry works. I wish that College of pilots could equal the playing field and make it fair for everyone. Pipe-dream maybe?

We have been told by our management that the jazz bid was 30% higher than other bids, does that sound like a race to the bottom?



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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:52 am 
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The 3 757's WILL be flown by WJ pilots all year around.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:30 am 
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palm90 wrote:
The 3 757's WILL be flown by WJ pilots all year around.


:lol: :lol: :rolleyes:



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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:11 pm 
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Looks like it will be 2 UK crewed 757's operating for WJ winter 2012/2013. Quid pro quo :smt008


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Westjet has a few NG's that infact are leased and some are due to be returned in 2013. With this new deal they will extend the leases thus increasing capacity.

Still Teal coloured Canadians flying them!



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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:48 pm 
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All of the Thomas Cook 57's used by Jazz are returning to the UK. The reason the 57's were pulled from Canada is, they were loosing money on them. From what I have heard (and this means very little) no one was making any money on the routes. Sunwing has really stepped up the competition on a lot of these southern vacation routes. Sunwing has a big advantage running an 800 (187) seats compared with the older 57's. Most of the routes weren't long enough to warrant a 57, plus Thomas cook is a vacation company.. not an airline (yes they do own airplanes, but I am sure they would love to have other people do there flying). Instead of pulling out of the Canadian market they will simply by the seats on Westjet. Works for Westjet because know they get to keep three extra tails a little longer.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:13 am 
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This while TC situation with Jazz is much more simple and a lot less politically charged than many would think. Straight from the REAL source:

1) TC could not run full 757s at full fare. It's simple, when you can only sell 1/2 the plane at a profit than it makes more business sense to buy those seats from another carrier and forget trying to fill your own seats at break even or a lose.

2) The 757s were beat up and maintenance pigs especially this year. Could have been due to TC money troubles, who knows but they costed a lot to keep going.

3) Logistics! Running 6 planes is not efficient. Point incorporating the planes into a Sched service at either end of the vacation charter is a more productive way to do business not there and back than park.

This came from a respected management type. There was a financial settlement between TC and Jazz covering costs and lost profit. This was simply and issue of capacity, nothing more. TC will now offer less seats as they are no longer bound to filling their own entire airplane and the risks are now placed on another carrier. When the economy picks up maybe they'll up capacity but for now it's pay as you go for TC in Canada.



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:17 pm 
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http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/news ... awaii.html


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:17 pm 
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palm90 wrote:
The 3 757's WILL be flown by WJ pilots all year around.



Your out of your mind



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:19 pm 
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You'll be eating those words next year! :wink:


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