Why WJ Pilots lost all my respect

[Mustard]

It took you almost 20 years KAG. We should be making double that.
Why do most pilots think it's OK because we see the world and enjoy it?

[FL767]

I've been here over 6 years. Your looking at a decade or more for an upgrade now (and that's a guess). I know 3 year fo's that have made in excess of 100k but that's t4 so it factors in everything. I myself made 135k but again that's all in (very little ot).
What is hard to quantify is the lifestyle. In the AC world my 6 years wouldn't get me the days off I request, my routes I fly (high credit single days) or Christmas off (I've been lucky the past few years).
My AC counterparts make more money there is no question but I'd stack my lifestyle against anyone's with only 6 years in.
It's honestly an awesome place to work, and if your inclined you can make a small fortune in extra flying.
To each their own.

That sounds great KAG! You are clearly making a fantastic living at WestJet. Without getting into what a 1996 "pre-westjet" narrow body year 6 FO at AC would make today, why on earth arn't Encore FO's making anything near that!?! You are all part of the same company, flying the same paying passengers around, just in different aircraft.

[FICU]

why on earth arn't Encore FO's making anything near that!?! You are all part of the same company, flying the same paying passengers around, just in different aircraft.

Profit sharing

[DH772]

It took you almost 20 years KAG. We should be making double that.
Why do most pilots think it's OK because we see the world and enjoy it?

I may be missing something here (I apologize and retract my statements if I am) but you think a 6 year WJ FO should make double of what he/she said (of 135K)?
You think a 6 year FO should be making 270K?

Why do pilots think its ok because we see the world and enjoy it? If you aren't happy making 135k as a 6 year FO is not because you're narrow minded. It's because you're greedy and think you're worth more than you really are.

[aerodude]

Can someone compare the new payscale of 737 flying compared to other operator (Transat, Sunwing, Enerjet)? I wont be surprised to see WJ still ahead. Theres a few 737 operators (as I mentioned) that wont make you gross over 70k even after 7 years in the company on the right seat.

[watermeth]

good idea, let the numbers talk.

[KAG]

Fl767
Please share with us ANY dash 8 operator where fo's make 96k let alone 135k.
Now that said our wowcon at encore is a work in progress. But that's not the topic here is it.

As for making double what I do now as an fo... That's funny. It's hard to feel bad for yourself when your in the top 2% of income earners and I still have an upgrade to go.
I think some on here need to really look around at the new 21 century aviation landscape and see it for what it is. The 80's Era mad cash flying jobs are gone. It's still great (Compared to the rest of the working class) but it's changed.
Personally I'd rather make a bit less, work a bit harder and be employed till I retire. That said I'm not going to be bent over a barrel either.

[airboy1]

Can someone compare the new payscale of 737 flying compared to other operator (Transat, Sunwing, Enerjet)? I wont be surprised to see WJ still ahead. Theres a few 737 operators (as I mentioned) that wont make you gross over 70k even after 7 years in the company on the right seat.

Here's Air Transat pay scale and conditions for 737

Year Salary
1 $ 50,000
2 $ 55,000
3 $ 58,300
4 $ 61,600
5 $ 64,900
6 $ 68,200
7 $ 71,500

-Dead head is not paid for first 2 hours of pairing, (You are not given credit if you are deadheading to another location to operate or return to base)
-2 Year training bond

You guys all blame skyregional/westjet for "lowering the bar" and yet allow this to happen?
I'm guessing westjet is still above? (I HOPE!)

[FL767]

Fl767
Please share with us ANY dash 8 operator where fo's make 96k let alone 135k.
Now that said our wowcon at encore is a work in progress. But that's not the topic here is it.

Jazz yr 6 FO: $61/credit hour, 77.5 min, max 16 days/month in 2012.
$61 x 77.5 = $4,727.50 / month = $56,730/yr
Source CanadianPilotSalaries.com

Certainly not $92k/yr, however much more substantial than Encore. I hope profit sharing is good, because there is a large income gap between WJ Dash 8 FO's and 737 FO's.

AT 737 scale is another thread, $50k/yr is low but liveable. That's where Encore should be starting their pilots.

[Go Guns]

Using Jazz pay scales for this argument is almost counterproductive when you consider the only hand that feeds those pay rates finds them too expensive.

[Kid]

Using Jazz pay scales for this argument is almost counterproductive when you consider the only hand that feeds those pay rates finds them too expensive.

Too expensive compared to what?

[DH772]

Jazz yr 6 FO: $61/credit hour, 77.5 min, max 16 days/month in 2012.
$61 x 77.5 = $4,727.50 / month = $56,730/yr
Source CanadianPilotSalaries.com

Your numbers are way off. Hourly rate isn't correct nor is your min credit guarntee.
I know 4 year Jazz FO's who cleared over 80k. And yes I understand you're talking very base salary here. But again you're figures are off

[Go Guns]

Too expensive compared to what?

Well, you would have to ask them.

Air Canada has publicly stated that it believed Chorus’ costs were too high, and has been shopping around some of its regional routes to lower-cost rivals, like Air Georgian and Sky Regional Airlines.

I can't say I'm fond of the reality of a US style of multiple regional carriers competing for Air Canada's routes, but that appears to be what we've got.

[Lpsi]

@KAG

I've been here over 6 years. Your looking at a decade or more for an upgrade now (and that's a guess). I know 3 year fo's that have made in excess of 100k but that's t4 so it factors in everything. I myself made 135k but again that's all in (very little ot).
What is hard to quantify is the lifestyle. In the AC world my 6 years wouldn't get me the days off I request, my routes I fly (high credit single days) or Christmas off (I've been lucky the past few years).
My AC counterparts make more money there is no question but I'd stack my lifestyle against anyone's with only 6 years in.
It's honestly an awesome place to work, and if your inclined you can make a small fortune in extra flying.
To each their own.

Mr KAG

First by making that kind of cake you did a bit more than a "very little ot" and before comparing to the other pilots salaries re calculate your Time away from base to achieve the 135K. I believe their is a huge difference in the actual time away from base. It would be interesting to hear from the AC pilots and others what the salaries are versus the actual flt hours per year. Have at er guys. Just your actual flt time verses time away days,hrs. I believe the 82.5 x12 = 990 minus vacation & training credit come to about 930 give or take. Lots of dead time in hotels and deadheading to get there.

Also thanks for being "a go getter"cause it helps me sleep at night knowing that with guys that are hard wired to flica they wont be calling for reserve.

[CAL]

someone speaks the truth.....

[KAG]

There's no disputing we work harder then anyone really. 80 hours of credit is hard time, very little natural block growth and no synthetic credit. As for working flica, guilty. I modify my schedule to maximize my time home. Also I chase single days, so not as much hotels or DH. Sure we have some crap pairings with crap credit and lots of rotting in hotels but your still going to get your days off.
I fail to see the problem here.

As for comparing my time away from base vs my AC counterparts I do. My good buddy is a junior a320 fo. I'd much rather have my sched even though I do work harder.

[Donald]

Hey, you'll never satisfy 100% of the people 100% of the time.

That being said...

My base salary without any OT, ESP, profit share, options is $96000 as an fo.

Would any 1,2,3,4th year captains at Sunwing, Canjet, EnerJet, Flair, Skyregional care to chime in?

[jetsetfly]

There's no disputing we work harder then anyone really. 80 hours of credit is hard time, very little natural block growth and no synthetic credit. As for working flica, guilty. I modify my schedule to maximize my time home. Also I chase single days, so not as much hotels or DH. Sure we have some crap pairings with crap credit and lots of rotting in hotels but your still going to get your days off.
I fail to see the problem here.

Am with WJ Maintenance and the Westjet pilot group are one of the most professional,courteous and Hard working group of individuals i have met and worked with no arguments what so ever ,never push Maintenance to Fix a snag quickly and in a short time and heck some pilots even offer to come and change a tire or two never seen that with any other company.They work hard for there Money they earn.

[Skyhunter]

ok, Jan was an exceptional month and maybe not to be considered representative but...
Rouge 319 F/O.
101.5 hours, worked 12 days, that includes one 30 hour layover and counting the day off there as one of my work days. The rest single day pairings. 29 of those hours and 3 days were O/T, again, not typical.

I don't expect that schedule to stay that way forever but pretty good for now. Oh, and got 90% of what I bid for regarding days off. A 6 year f/o would have been 94 an hour to compare apples to apples to KAG's post.

[The Raven]

ok, Jan was an exceptional month and maybe not to be considered representative but...
Rouge 319 F/O.
101.5 hours, worked 12 days, that includes one 30 hour layover and counting the day off there as one of my work days. The rest single day pairings. 29 of those hours and 3 days were O/T, again, not typical.

I don't expect that schedule to stay that way forever but pretty good for now. Oh, and got 90% of what I bid for regarding days off. A 6 year f/o would have been 94 an hour to compare apples to apples to KAG's post.

Also, a 6 year pilot at Air Canada would have the option to be a Relief Pilot on the 777, 767, or 787. Would only have to work 9 days a month and see a lot of the world. Pay would be a bit lower though. Without looking the pay scales up, I'm not sure how much lower. The point is though that he/she has plenty of options.