Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

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costermonger
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by costermonger »

Rockie wrote:Where then does their "we have the support of the people to form a coalition government" come from if the Bloc isn't going to be part of it. How is it that a coalition smaller than the sitting government has any right to replace it? Do you really think the Bloc is doing this out of the goodness of their heart and won't demand anything from the Liberals and NDP? You and others who think this is a good idea are using a lot of parallax error in justifying this whole scam.
So.. When did I say this coalition was a good idea?

That aside, I'm not willing to continue arguing about the legitimacy of a coalition government. It's allowed. You don't have to like it, but you do have to get over the possibility that it's legitimate. There's plenty of opportunities for the Conservatives to exploit the rules for their gain too; if you want proof, well, it's 7pm EST on Monday the 8th of December, and Stephen Harper is still the Prime Minister.

EVERYBODY involved in this whole deal is power hungry.
Even if they had another election that returned the exact same result, it still shows that the Conservatives hold the single largest support of any other party and they form the government. Just like last time. Anybody who ignores that fact (like the coalition just did) will pay the price from the electorate. You have to win an election, not create a gang of losers to usurp the government.

If the opposition defeats the government after they table a good budget, it will be seen as the obvious power grab that it is and the good people of Canada will not be happy. Them taking over will not be tolerated, and another election will be tagged to them and they will pay the price. Unless Harper puts out a budget a unacceptable as the last one (which might just happen unless he wises up) then the opposition would be suicidal to defeat it.
I agree that the Liberals have absolutely no option but to vote in favour of a reasonable budget - that's going to be Stevie's salvation, if you ask me - but it's still up to the Conservatives to come forward with one. If we just hit the reset button on this government, go back to the polls and get exactly the same results, it's still up to Harper to work with the opposition on at least SOME level or he really will get replaced next time.
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just another pilot
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by just another pilot »

O.k Icebound. My comments were not to rewrite history. Macdonald was a "Conservative" and not a "Liberal," but he was a liberal minded politician (federalist). As a matter of historical context, liberals of 140+ years ago have actually evolved their idiologies. However, I have not erred by quoting Macdonald's National Policy. The coalition intended stimulus package scores points with the voters in Ontario and Quebec. I actually do understand how responsible government works in Canada. I merely stated that the three existing parties WITHIN the coalition would not function well because of conflicting ideologies - that is all. Second, I question a democratic process that allows a "majority" via the Bloc vote where no one outside of Quebec is represented.
I love people like you on here - waiting to pounce with sarcasm at every opportunity. How did you like my use of CAPITALS?
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by fleet16b »

Oh Well

So much for the "coalition" it's already ready fallen apart like a house built from soggy cardboard.
LOOKS GOOD ON THEM !
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Rockie »

Can somebody tell me again why those clowns in charge would have been good for the country?
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by xsbank »

In a nutshell, they are not hell-bent to piss away our tax money to enrich their supporters like the scuzzy Liberals have suggested they might do the same instant that they take power. The nitwit Harper at least has counselled restraint and caution and a budget after consultation in late January, even with his plan to gut party funding, (which I agree with) - it was just ill-conceived and badly-timed and I'll bet he planned it during the election, hoping for a majority, didn't get it but couldn't lose his plan, silly buggar.

Michael I. will save us all, though, he probably has enough charisma to distract us all from what ails us and the Liberals will be able to go back to their thieving ways and make us all feel good about it.
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Icebound »

xsbank wrote:
The nitwit Harper at least has counselled restraint and caution and a budget after consultation in late January, even with his plan to gut party funding, (which I agree with)

.
(I am not sure whether you agree with "party funding" or agree with his plan to "gut it")

But geez.....Two bucks a year.

You tip your bartender more than that in a single round.
You lose that much in your couch every week.

I'd gladly give up 2 bucks a year to keep the bloody vested interest of Labour Unions and Corporations from being able to buy the government. Now THAT would us way more than 2 bucks a year.



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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Spokes »

I dont want one penny of my money going to either the Liberal or the NDP.
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Rockie »

I got my form letter back from Jack Layton thanking me for my input. I guess they didn't read my letter properly.

Thank you for writing.

The New Democratic Party supports a coalition government with the central objective of delivering an immediate economic agenda--something that 19 of the other G20 countries have done.

In these uncertain and extraordinary economic times, Canadians are looking for a Parliament that can work together to put working families first. According to the Reid Strategies poll that followed Finance Minister Flaherty's economic update, 75 percent of the public said the federal government should "implement a stimulus package to boost the economy as soon as possible."

Two months ago, Stephen Harper was elected with just 38% of the vote, yet he acts as if he has 100% of the power. Instead of defeating this economic crisis with a meaningful stimulus package, he chose total inaction and cheap political tricks. There is nothing in the Harper economic update that will create jobs, assist those thrown out of work or bolster consumer confidence.

At stake are tens of thousands of jobs and home ownerships, the security of pension funds, the very existence of entire manufacturing sectors, and our ability to invest and grow business as credit freezes around the globe.

Canada has a multi-party democracy and the majority of parliament have lost confidence in Mr. Harper's government. We have resolved to form a new, cooperative government that will effectively, prudently, promptly and competently address these critical economic times. New Democrats have agreed to work with the other opposition parties to put forward an alternative government - a majority coalition for real change. We pledge to take prudent and responsible economic steps that are necessary to meet the economic and fiscal challenges we face at this time.

While Stephen Harper has built this issue into a national unity crisis, the coalition has not wavered from its primary and singular purpose -- to deliver a government of national economic unity.

Former NDP Leader Ed Broadbent has challenged the Harper Conservatives on their misrepresentation of this agreement in the following article. http://tinyurl.com/6f2df4.

We remain committed to achieving results that average Canadian families expect from New Democrats: action to create jobs, to protect your pension and retirement, and to lay the foundation for the green economy of tomorrow.

Again, many thanks for your message.

Sincerely,


Jack Layton, MP (Toronto-Danforth)
Leader, Canada's New Democrats
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Icebound »

Spokes wrote:I dont want one penny of my money going to either the Liberal or the NDP.
That's the beauty of funding political parties by proportion of votes received. Your money, in effect, goes with your vote.

Better yet, since half the population didn't vote, but their money gets used anyway.... you aren't even out the full 2 bucks...


Of course if you would rather have your government bought by the Corporations, or by the Labour Unions or by similar vested interests, well.... I guess you get the government you deserve.


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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by BibleMonkey »

Good points , Icebound. Most modern western democracies have such public funding available to political parties , ( hypothetically at least ) in order that fewer or richer voices don't out-shout the poorer, or stomp minor groups.

In the United States , it's 3 U.S bucks ( $3.60 canuck ) per taxpayer, not our $ 2 per voter .

Obama was the first Presidential candidate since the FEC started that in '74 not to use public funds; although their system is a lot more complicated than it should be-allows too much 'leakage' which arguably defeats the original purpose :

( McCain took the public money-which limited the amount of 'bribe money' :lol: he could rake in...)

Obama rejects public financing against McCain
Thu Jun 19, 2008

Public Funding of Presidential Elections
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Spokes »

Icebound wrote:
Spokes wrote:I dont want one penny of my money going to either the Liberal or the NDP.
That's the beauty of funding political parties by proportion of votes received. Your money, in effect, goes with your vote.

Better yet, since half the population didn't vote, but their money gets used anyway.... you aren't even out the full 2 bucks...


Of course if you would rather have your government bought by the Corporations, or by the Labour Unions or by similar vested interests, well.... I guess you get the government you deserve.


...
You are assuming that everyone who votes say NDP pays as much tax as I do. I make a decent living, so as a result pay alot of tax. Some welfare living hippie NDP supporter who pays no tax still sees 2 bucks for his vote go to them. Who pays for that?
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Icebound »

Spokes wrote:
You are assuming that everyone who votes say NDP pays as much tax as I do. I make a decent living, so as a result pay alot of tax. Some welfare living hippie NDP supporter who pays no tax still sees 2 bucks for his vote go to them. Who pays for that?
No. I am assuming that everyone who votes, say, Conservative, such as these guys:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blog ... art-i.aspx
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blog ... rt-ii.aspx

... would pay at least as much tax as some welfare-living-hippie-NDP supporter.

But I would be wrong.... They pay even less.


...


.
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Spokes »

All very interesting, but nothing to do with my point. You cannot tell me that under the cash per vote system, none of my money- even a single red penny- goes to political parties that I do not support. I really do not want this to happen.
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Guido »

Spokes wrote:All very interesting, but nothing to do with my point. You cannot tell me that under the cash per vote system, none of my money- even a single red penny- goes to political parties that I do not support. I really do not want this to happen.
Yup, and if you can assure me that not a single penny of my taxes goes to supporting unjust wars, corrupt politicians, and bailouts for corporations who are too stupid to handle their money, then we'll all assure you of your money not going to parties you don't support. :rolleyes:
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Icebound »

Guido wrote:
Spokes wrote:All very interesting, but nothing to do with my point. You cannot tell me that under the cash per vote system, none of my money- even a single red penny- goes to political parties that I do not support. I really do not want this to happen.
Yup, and if you can assure me that not a single penny of my taxes goes to supporting unjust wars, corrupt politicians, and bailouts for corporations who are too stupid to handle their money, then we'll all assure you of your money not going to parties you don't support. :rolleyes:
:smt023



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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Spokes »

Guido wrote:
Spokes wrote:All very interesting, but nothing to do with my point. You cannot tell me that under the cash per vote system, none of my money- even a single red penny- goes to political parties that I do not support. I really do not want this to happen.
Yup, and if you can assure me that not a single penny of my taxes goes to supporting unjust wars, corrupt politicians, and bailouts for corporations who are too stupid to handle their money, then we'll all assure you of your money not going to parties you don't support. :rolleyes:
:roll: Again you seem intent on deflection with straw men, rather than addressing the statement given. Without getting too drawn into it, I'll just say that I am sure you can figure out the differences here.

Having said all that, there is a debate point that can be made, to refute my statement. I did not think of it until later, but I'll leave you to figure it out.

Oh, and your assertions that the 2 buck a vote thing is better than massive donations from industry is not it. That is simply a false dichotomy. Thats your hint.
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Guido »

Spokes wrote:
Guido wrote:
Spokes wrote:All very interesting, but nothing to do with my point. You cannot tell me that under the cash per vote system, none of my money- even a single red penny- goes to political parties that I do not support. I really do not want this to happen.
Yup, and if you can assure me that not a single penny of my taxes goes to supporting unjust wars, corrupt politicians, and bailouts for corporations who are too stupid to handle their money, then we'll all assure you of your money not going to parties you don't support. :rolleyes:
:roll: Again you seem intent on deflection with straw men, rather than addressing the statement given. Without getting too drawn into it, I'll just say that I am sure you can figure out the differences here.

Having said all that, there is a debate point that can be made, to refute my statement. I did not think of it until later, but I'll leave you to figure it out.

Oh, and your assertions that the 2 buck a vote thing is better than massive donations from industry is not it. That is simply a false dichotomy. Thats your hint.
If you don't like it, Spokes - try to get it changed.

My point is that tax dollars will always be paying for something that you don't necessarily want them to. That's just how the system works. My tax dollars pay for wars that I don't support, politicians' salaries, donations to corporations.

Do you like the idea of government being run by whomever has the highest bid from corporations? That's what you get when you have campaigns based solely on "donations" (read: bribes). All that donated money has strings attached. When it comes from the taxpayers, that means that the parties are responsible to ALL of us instead of a bunch of CEOs. Granted that means that politicians might think they have no responsibilities to anyone but themselves (see current situation), but I think it's preferable than the country being run by whomever Exxon approves of.
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Spokes »

If you don't like it, Spokes - try to get it changed.
There are many things that I do not like that I know Ihave no hope in changing. My initial point was that I do not like a system where my money is used in support of someone becoming prime minister whom I do not want to.
My point is that tax dollars will always be paying for something that you don't necessarily want them to. That's just how the system works. My tax dollars pay for wars that I don't support, politicians' salaries, donations to corporations.
Well, duh. I amnot a complete moron. I know that alot of tax money goes to thngs that I do not want it to. Your pointing this out is not a huge revelation. BTW does anyone really want war? Ultimately government will use tax money to pay for things that it feels it must. I know this. I also know that I will not always agree with all of these causes. The difference as I see it is using my money to decide who forms governemnt, not what a properly elected government does. I guess the difference is subtle, but to me it is real.
Do you like the idea of government being run by whomever has the highest bid from corporations? That's what you get when you have campaigns based solely on "donations" (read: bribes). All that donated money has strings attached. When it comes from the taxpayers, that means that the parties are responsible to ALL of us instead of a bunch of CEOs. Granted that means that politicians might think they have no responsibilities to anyone but themselves (see current situation), but I think it's preferable than the country being run by whomever Exxon approves of.
Again, your assertion that if we do not have the 2$ a vote system then all that is left is corperate donations is a false dichotomy.
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Icebound »

Spokes wrote:
Again, your assertion that if we do not have the 2$ a vote system then all that is left is corperate donations is a false dichotomy.
I might even be able to accept that statement, provided that the rules are carefully written and religiously followed.

Nevertheless, that does not alter the fact that certain political ideologies (parties), are more attractive to those who are financially stressed, while others to those who are financially blessed. This means that certain parties will ALWAYS have more difficulty raising money, because their "base" is the less-wealthy population.

In a democracy where every voice is supposed to be heard, this means that certain voices would be perpetually suppressed only because of financial considerations.

THAT is the dichotomy which public funding tries to level by some minimal amount.



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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Spokes »

I can agree with most of that, but this statement
financially blessed


is something that I have heard often, that really gets my goat. You are what you make of yourself. I am doing alright, but no one "blessed" me and said it was so. Everything I have, and am is a result of my own actions. I did not win some kid of lotteryand get in on the sucessful side. I worked hard in school when I was young, I learned how to work outside of school to earn money. I have never asked for anything from anyone. At times money has been tight, but hard/smart work gets you out

I have seen too many young people do the minimum to get by, not tryin/caring about school. Not trying to better themselves, but more concerned with looking like a 'gangsta' and mayby trying to get past the next level on Saints Row on xbox. These are the people that invariably become 'financially stressed'. I have seen many people that fall in this catagory, and certainly resent my hard work supporting this.

Now I know that this is not universal, and that sometimes bad luck can make a hard worker fall on bad times. But from what I have seen, the virtue of being a hard worker eventually gets them out of it.

I do not like the $2 per vote system, but I suppose many do. The other way parties are financed is only marginally better. Donations from private citizens (capped maximums) with a 75% tax deduction. I can't say that I know what the solution is. But that does not mean I can not like what I consider the problem to be. And I still don't want Layton to get any of my tax money to run his campain!
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by GreenStar »

[quote="Spokes"] You are what you make of yourself. I am doing alright, but no one "blessed" me and said it was so. Everything I have, and am is a result of my own actions. I did not win some kid of lotteryand get in on the sucessful side. I worked hard in school when I was young, I learned how to work outside of school to earn money. I have never asked for anything from anyone. At times money has been tight, but hard/smart work gets you out

I have seen too many young people do the minimum to get by, not tryin/caring about school. Not trying to better themselves, but more concerned with looking like a 'gangsta' and mayby trying to get past the next level on Saints Row on xbox. These are the people that invariably become 'financially stressed'. I have seen many people that fall in this catagory, and certainly resent my hard work supporting this.

Now I know that this is not universal, and that sometimes bad luck can make a hard worker fall on bad times. But from what I have seen, the virtue of being a hard worker eventually gets them out of it.

Spokes, you should run for office, you have my support. The socialists might be a tough sell though.
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Spokes »

Can't. Too Honest.
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Driving Rain »

http://www.montrealgazette.com/columnis ... story.html

Eighteen appointments to the Senate, three days before Christmas. That sounds about right, in terms of how these things have always been done. Except that the guy doing them, Stephen Harper, is a dyed-in-the-wool advocate of an elected Senate, one of the core principles of the Reform Party movement from which he came.

Say it ain't so Steve
Steve sells out ....again
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Hedley »

When in Rome ...
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Re: Who else enjoys the opposition making an ass of themselves?

Post by Rockie »

Driving Rain wrote:http://www.montrealgazette.com/columnis ... story.html

Eighteen appointments to the Senate, three days before Christmas. That sounds about right, in terms of how these things have always been done. Except that the guy doing them, Stephen Harper, is a dyed-in-the-wool advocate of an elected Senate, one of the core principles of the Reform Party movement from which he came.

Say it ain't so Steve
Steve sells out ....again
He didn't sell out. The reason there were 18 vacancies to begin with is because he deliberately didn't appoint any Senators while he futilely tried to change the system. An effort that was blocked by the opposition and the majority Liberal Senators already in place. It got to the point where the few Conservative Senators couldn't do the work they were appointed because there simply weren't enough of them. Finally he had to do something. He had appoint Conservatives because if he doesn't do something to try and even the odds then the chance of getting the institution changed are nonexistent. As it is the Liberals still far outnumber the Conservatives.
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