Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
Well then in closing there really are only two probabilities.
1) You believe in God, therefore by extension you probably interpret the religious texts to prove his infallability, or...
2) You don't believe in God, in which case whether he is fallable or not is irrelevant.
I suppose there is also
3) You believe in God, believe he is fallable, most of which you feel you need to justify possibly to explain your own misfortune. After all if you think you are fortunate, I'm not sure what kind of world view you might have that would also say that this is wrong. That being said I'm not sure why a person would hold such a miserable belief - that God is indeed out to get them. There's paranoia and then there's paranoia. I suppose it might be slightly comforting to at least have the knowledge that you have the attention of such a wrathful God.
1) You believe in God, therefore by extension you probably interpret the religious texts to prove his infallability, or...
2) You don't believe in God, in which case whether he is fallable or not is irrelevant.
I suppose there is also
3) You believe in God, believe he is fallable, most of which you feel you need to justify possibly to explain your own misfortune. After all if you think you are fortunate, I'm not sure what kind of world view you might have that would also say that this is wrong. That being said I'm not sure why a person would hold such a miserable belief - that God is indeed out to get them. There's paranoia and then there's paranoia. I suppose it might be slightly comforting to at least have the knowledge that you have the attention of such a wrathful God.
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
So, nissters, I can only assume from your original question that you have done something that is eliminating any possibility of enjoying the exotic delights of your beloved and thus have time to ponder on such questions.
Did you manage to obtain the 12th planet or the earth chronicles? They are quite worthwile for those that ponder such questions as they offer a very different historical persepective , and were written by a world famous Jewish scholar at that.
Maybe downloadable on an e-book from the libreary. PM if you do read them and let me know what you think...
Alternatively, I have found flowers, groveling, and dinner has gotten me back to a place where I no longer have time to contemplate such mysteries.
Did you manage to obtain the 12th planet or the earth chronicles? They are quite worthwile for those that ponder such questions as they offer a very different historical persepective , and were written by a world famous Jewish scholar at that.
Maybe downloadable on an e-book from the libreary. PM if you do read them and let me know what you think...
Alternatively, I have found flowers, groveling, and dinner has gotten me back to a place where I no longer have time to contemplate such mysteries.
Accident speculation:
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
LMAO,trey kule wrote:So, nissters, I can only assume from your original question that you have done something that is eliminating any possibility of enjoying the exotic delights of your beloved and thus have time to ponder on such questions.
Did you manage to obtain the 12th planet or the earth chronicles? They are quite worthwile for those that ponder such questions as they offer a very different historical persepective , and were written by a world famous Jewish scholar at that.
Maybe downloadable on an e-book from the libreary. PM if you do read them and let me know what you think...
Alternatively, I have found flowers, groveling, and dinner has gotten me back to a place where I no longer have time to contemplate such mysteries.
No joy on those books yet, I have a long list of books to read and so little time but I will let you know when I manage to.
And no these thoughts are not stemming from an angry wife or a dry spell. I teach Hebrew School at our Synagogue and am exposed to such things on a weekly basis, thus my curiosity and cynicism take hold of it.
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niss wrote:As an Athiest-Jew
Ok, now I really want to come over with a case of "HE'BREW" to hang out and chat.niss wrote: I teach Hebrew School at our Synagogue and am exposed to such things on a weekly basis, thus my curiosity and cynicism take hold of it.
http://www.shmaltz.com/
We should probably try to get . and Hedley in on this.
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
Hehehe, those would be good times indeed.
She’s built like a Steakhouse, but she handles like a Bistro.
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
Well I wasn't originally going to jump into this debate, but my toddler is sick with a miserable cold, and so I've had way too much Bob the Builder, etc. and need a break.
Your question: Is God fallable, or a dick?
Consider that perhaps, he/she/it is neither.
Imagine a child has some playdough. He builds a little playdough car, playdough house and little playdough people. He spends hours and hours making these little dough people have various adventures / misadventures. All is good.
Mommy tells the child it's almost time for dinner, put away your toys and go wash-up. The child proceeds to smoosh the little dough people into massive ball, along with all the other things he'd spent time building and creating; and sticks it in a tub on the toy shelf ready to play with next time.
Is that child a dick? Perhaps the little playdough people would think so. It's all a matter of perspective.
Assuming there is a god who created us, etc. Does that mean we're of any importance to he/she/it? Our entire existence has taken place in the blink of an eye (in a geological time-scale). We are a tiny and insignificant spec in a vast universe. It's all a matter of perspective.
Your question: Is God fallable, or a dick?
Consider that perhaps, he/she/it is neither.
Imagine a child has some playdough. He builds a little playdough car, playdough house and little playdough people. He spends hours and hours making these little dough people have various adventures / misadventures. All is good.
Mommy tells the child it's almost time for dinner, put away your toys and go wash-up. The child proceeds to smoosh the little dough people into massive ball, along with all the other things he'd spent time building and creating; and sticks it in a tub on the toy shelf ready to play with next time.
Is that child a dick? Perhaps the little playdough people would think so. It's all a matter of perspective.
Assuming there is a god who created us, etc. Does that mean we're of any importance to he/she/it? Our entire existence has taken place in the blink of an eye (in a geological time-scale). We are a tiny and insignificant spec in a vast universe. It's all a matter of perspective.
Cheers,
Brew
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
Except the bible says that he is a loving and merciful God. Which clearly he doesn't seem to be.Brewguy wrote:Well I wasn't originally going to jump into this debate, but my toddler is sick with a miserable cold, and so I've had way too much Bob the Builder, etc. and need a break.
Your question: Is God fallable, or a dick?
Consider that perhaps, he/she/it is neither.
Imagine a child has some playdough. He builds a little playdough car, playdough house and little playdough people. He spends hours and hours making these little dough people have various adventures / misadventures. All is good.
Mommy tells the child it's almost time for dinner, put away your toys and go wash-up. The child proceeds to smoosh the little dough people into massive ball, along with all the other things he'd spent time building and creating; and sticks it in a tub on the toy shelf ready to play with next time.
Is that child a dick? Perhaps the little playdough people would think so. It's all a matter of perspective.
Assuming there is a god who created us, etc. Does that mean we're of any importance to he/she/it? Our entire existence has taken place in the blink of an eye (in a geological time-scale). We are a tiny and insignificant spec in a vast universe. It's all a matter of perspective.
Also you are taught that if you apologies and pray for forgiveness, God will forgive you. but what about the billions of creatures who did not anger God (Noah & Ark) who perished anyway?
On top of that I would argue that if that child a) did care about his creatures, b) was not a dick then would have certainly been fallible in his wanton destruction of his creatures.
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Brewguy might be on to something. The Playdoh creatures are Playdoh the whole time regardless of the shape or form they are in at whatever given time. No one felt bad for the Playdoh car that got squished, we have more sympathy for the Playdoh hot chick because we relate to it differently.
Maybe the animals that didn't get saved in the Ark didn't mind going back to a different form of dust (carbon) via the flood as opposed to what ever death they eventually would have got to. Maybe in their case since they were not being punished like the people they were given special conciousness that made them have fun drowning.
Ever try any shmaltz products brewguy?
Maybe the animals that didn't get saved in the Ark didn't mind going back to a different form of dust (carbon) via the flood as opposed to what ever death they eventually would have got to. Maybe in their case since they were not being punished like the people they were given special conciousness that made them have fun drowning.
Ever try any shmaltz products brewguy?
Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
Niss: you appear to assume that god same sense of morality as a human, or that a human's mortal life has some degree of value or importance. If the soul is the bit that matters; destroying the mortal lives of 'billions' of creatures is really no big deal for a god.
Back to the child analogy, if you pick your toys up off the floor and put them in a toy box or on the shelf, have you really done those toys any harm? Certainly you may have disrupted them .... but they are still doing what they were intended for. They are still toys.
If god plucks the soul out of a creature, takes it off this earth and puts it in another place; has he/she/it done us any harm?
I like beer ...
Back to the child analogy, if you pick your toys up off the floor and put them in a toy box or on the shelf, have you really done those toys any harm? Certainly you may have disrupted them .... but they are still doing what they were intended for. They are still toys.
If god plucks the soul out of a creature, takes it off this earth and puts it in another place; has he/she/it done us any harm?
No, I haven't. I gather it's some form of Kosher beer is it?Ever try any shmaltz products brewguy?
I like beer ...
Cheers,
Brew
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
True, but for the purpose of this debate it is assumed that if God exists, he does so exactly the way he is described in the Bible and the accompanying texts.Brewguy wrote:Niss: you appear to assume that god same sense of morality as a human, or that a human's mortal life has some degree of value or importance. If the soul is the bit that matters; destroying the mortal lives of 'billions' of creatures is really no big deal for a god.
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
Whoa now, Billy Grahamstein, ...be careful what you are quoting from the Bible.
If you take a quick read when the Hebrew God and his head guy, Abraham were having a conference and discussing those pesky commandments and how they would convey them without the internet being available, you will see that God refers to himself (yes...himself) as a vengeful God. There are other Gods around, you see, and if Abraham and his team start paying alligance to any of those other Gods....well, he probably would have extended that little snip job a bit further up (It doesnt actually say the last part, but I believe!!)
Much of what we believe the Bible says, it does not....People believe it says money is the root of all evil..does not say that. What is says is the LOVE of money is the root of all evil...big difference. Sometimes it has to be read and hopefully intrepreted with as little of our prejudices and beliefs as possible. If you read Ecc 15.16 (I think, my memory is not what is used to be and it really was not all that good then), it actually says money is good..the best..Shekel accumulation is much to be desired..(Not sure if it actually says it exactly this way, but I am relying on the fact people will be to lazy to actually check.
Anyway, I am now getting into arguement mode so will bow out for awhile. going to go and see if I can copyright He'Brew..the one most chosen. I suppose though that it will have to have a warning label that drinking this brew may cause one to suffer like no other brew.
If you take a quick read when the Hebrew God and his head guy, Abraham were having a conference and discussing those pesky commandments and how they would convey them without the internet being available, you will see that God refers to himself (yes...himself) as a vengeful God. There are other Gods around, you see, and if Abraham and his team start paying alligance to any of those other Gods....well, he probably would have extended that little snip job a bit further up (It doesnt actually say the last part, but I believe!!)
Much of what we believe the Bible says, it does not....People believe it says money is the root of all evil..does not say that. What is says is the LOVE of money is the root of all evil...big difference. Sometimes it has to be read and hopefully intrepreted with as little of our prejudices and beliefs as possible. If you read Ecc 15.16 (I think, my memory is not what is used to be and it really was not all that good then), it actually says money is good..the best..Shekel accumulation is much to be desired..(Not sure if it actually says it exactly this way, but I am relying on the fact people will be to lazy to actually check.
Anyway, I am now getting into arguement mode so will bow out for awhile. going to go and see if I can copyright He'Brew..the one most chosen. I suppose though that it will have to have a warning label that drinking this brew may cause one to suffer like no other brew.
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
presumptively..if there were a simple defintiion for the term God it might be that God ( if you choose to call the energy that) is that creative force in everything that is
that makes it simple
that makes it simple
Last edited by canwhitewolf on Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yeah, I've only tried the coney island lager, it was pretty good. I'm just glad I didn't have any thing in my mouth when I read this.Brewguy wrote:No, I haven't. I gather it's some form of Kosher beer is it?Ever try any shmaltz products brewguy?
I like beer ...
Oh man, THAT was awesome!Whoa now, Billy Grahamstein
Too late on the beer Trey, www.shmaltz.com has had it in production for a while now.
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
But also a forgiving God (Yom Kippur) etc.trey kule wrote:Whoa now, Billy Grahamstein, ...be careful what you are quoting from the Bible.
If you take a quick read when the Hebrew God and his head guy, Abraham were having a conference and discussing those pesky commandments and how they would convey them without the internet being available, you will see that God refers to himself (yes...himself) as a vengeful God.
That said most examples of forgiveness are found in the New (wrong) Testament.
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/forgive.html
Biblical Repentance
"Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out" Acts 3:19
Repentance of itself is not simply a reform of one's behavior, although genuine repentance does result in a reformed behavior. But repentance itself is the sincere seeking to be forgiven. It is preceded by conviction and acknowledgement that one has sinned. The kind of repentance God demands is one which has visible results. Paul discussed his gospel with King Agrippa saying "that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance." Acts 26:20 And also John the Baptist says, "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance." Luke 3:8
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
anyone ever wonder why all this religious stuff comes from the middle east? does god love that place more for some reason
why didnt it come from nova scotia for example
why didnt it come from nova scotia for example
Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
Niss
Arguing (discussing) the (in)fallability of God with a self proclaimed athiest is probably not the most productive use of time.....
but...
Your example of the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah is only partially complete.
Abraham does in fact ask God to spare the city if he can find 50 good people, God agrees.....tries for 45....God agrees, continues on until the number is down to 10 people...just 10. In a whole city.
God doen't just smite the city then. Instead he sends two angels disguised as men to enter the city to find 10 good people. Instead the find 1 good man who save them from a gang rape. (read it, it's there). Lot (the good man), upon hearing of the upcoming destruction of the city pleads for his extended family. Lot is granted a reprieve of the city to gather his family for escape. Unfortunatley his family (a couple of future son in laws) scoff at Lot and refuse to leave. Lot gathers his immediate family and leaves. NOW God smites the city. With not a single righteus person left within it.
So God is not a Dick in this example. He has spared the righteous. But he is "Just". He has destroyed the wicked as he has allways said he would.
Do you think God knew there was no righteous left within the city save for Lot and his Family. I would think he probably did. But allowing Abraham to intercede on the cities behalf and then allowing Lot to intercede on his families behalf showed that God is willing and wants to allow for the repentance of the unrighteous. Wants his followers to intercede for and be concerned for the well being of others and allows them the opportunity to work on behalf of the unrighteous.
In my mid, this would be the opposite of God being a "Dick"
Now, that all being said I don't expect you to change your mind one way or the other on this discussion. But I wanted to put your example into perspective for the sake of the discussion.
We can discuss Noah, the great Flood and the rebuilding process later....too much typing.
Arguing (discussing) the (in)fallability of God with a self proclaimed athiest is probably not the most productive use of time.....
but...
Your example of the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah is only partially complete.
Abraham does in fact ask God to spare the city if he can find 50 good people, God agrees.....tries for 45....God agrees, continues on until the number is down to 10 people...just 10. In a whole city.
God doen't just smite the city then. Instead he sends two angels disguised as men to enter the city to find 10 good people. Instead the find 1 good man who save them from a gang rape. (read it, it's there). Lot (the good man), upon hearing of the upcoming destruction of the city pleads for his extended family. Lot is granted a reprieve of the city to gather his family for escape. Unfortunatley his family (a couple of future son in laws) scoff at Lot and refuse to leave. Lot gathers his immediate family and leaves. NOW God smites the city. With not a single righteus person left within it.
So God is not a Dick in this example. He has spared the righteous. But he is "Just". He has destroyed the wicked as he has allways said he would.
Do you think God knew there was no righteous left within the city save for Lot and his Family. I would think he probably did. But allowing Abraham to intercede on the cities behalf and then allowing Lot to intercede on his families behalf showed that God is willing and wants to allow for the repentance of the unrighteous. Wants his followers to intercede for and be concerned for the well being of others and allows them the opportunity to work on behalf of the unrighteous.
In my mid, this would be the opposite of God being a "Dick"
Now, that all being said I don't expect you to change your mind one way or the other on this discussion. But I wanted to put your example into perspective for the sake of the discussion.
We can discuss Noah, the great Flood and the rebuilding process later....too much typing.
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
But that is exactly my point. What if Abraham was completely faithful and figured God was right to destroy it. God would have presumably destroyed the whole city, Lot and all.
That's why I think he might be a dick.
That's why I think he might be a dick.
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Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
Niss
Had Abraham NOT interceded for the people of Sodom then the preceeding verses would be incorrect.
16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. [/color]
God KNEW he would intercede, by interceding for those in Sodom, he WAS being completley faithful. He was "keeping the way of the Lord to do Justice AND Judgement" The Lord did not command Abraham to destroy the city, had he done that and had Abraham refused then he would have been unfaithful. He told Abraham of his PLAN to destroy the city IF they hand indeed commited the grevious sins which ha cried out to the Lord.
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Note that Abraham never said God was not right to destroy the city if it was evil. He petioned the Lord to spare the city IF 10 Righteous men could be found in it. Unfortunatley for Sodom, Only one Man was righteous.
Had Abraham NOT interceded for the people of Sodom then the preceeding verses would be incorrect.
16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. [/color]
God KNEW he would intercede, by interceding for those in Sodom, he WAS being completley faithful. He was "keeping the way of the Lord to do Justice AND Judgement" The Lord did not command Abraham to destroy the city, had he done that and had Abraham refused then he would have been unfaithful. He told Abraham of his PLAN to destroy the city IF they hand indeed commited the grevious sins which ha cried out to the Lord.
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Note that Abraham never said God was not right to destroy the city if it was evil. He petioned the Lord to spare the city IF 10 Righteous men could be found in it. Unfortunatley for Sodom, Only one Man was righteous.
Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
Having been subjected to a very religious upbringing in which I was coerced into attending church 3 times a week on top of attending a religious school, I think I am very well versed in this subject matter and I find people's various levels of familiarity and the resulting views on this topic most interesting. But in the interesting of just plain answering niss' question: I like to think that if God does exist, he is kind of a dick. It would make me personally feel better about suffering from the same affliction, if not for the fact that being a dick, by it's very nature, precludes me from giving a shit about it.
Re: Theological Debate - Is God fallable, or a dick?
Oh vey, I should leave this alone...
canwolf...My whole original point was that the definition of God is in fact flawed. The definition you put forward only refers to some sort of spirit, The biblical God, in many descriptions, walks, talks, threatens, makes deals, and demand his people be team players....that is not a spirit ...And with our use of a single name for two different entitities we confuse ourselves, and subsequently try to attribute to each of them some of the attributes of the other.
The Bible is not the only source of historical information of what went on during those periods, and the bible itself, in Genisis refers to the Elphim (I hope I still spelled that right). In the original Hebrew, the plural is used in Genisis and not the singular in many cases.
As to Angels..simply means messanger..Not some winged magical creature that we might have had shameful thoughts about as teenagers.
Now the really serious stuff...
Nova Scotians have beer....nuff said there I think...but the realitiy is that the bible is based on events in the middle east. There are God like records from places other than there but in North America we simply do not hear of them yet...multiculturalism will change that in the future.
It was dissappointing to be told about the beer...I shall suffer terribly, and no one has suffered as much as I have ....anyone got any other good beer names? Duff and Quahog have also been copywrited.
This was a good discussion Niss, but I wouldnt post to much more....If the big guy is really a dick and has the powers of Santa Claus , he knows now you have doubts...and you know where that will lead.....just saying is all.
canwolf...My whole original point was that the definition of God is in fact flawed. The definition you put forward only refers to some sort of spirit, The biblical God, in many descriptions, walks, talks, threatens, makes deals, and demand his people be team players....that is not a spirit ...And with our use of a single name for two different entitities we confuse ourselves, and subsequently try to attribute to each of them some of the attributes of the other.
The Bible is not the only source of historical information of what went on during those periods, and the bible itself, in Genisis refers to the Elphim (I hope I still spelled that right). In the original Hebrew, the plural is used in Genisis and not the singular in many cases.
As to Angels..simply means messanger..Not some winged magical creature that we might have had shameful thoughts about as teenagers.
Now the really serious stuff...
Nova Scotians have beer....nuff said there I think...but the realitiy is that the bible is based on events in the middle east. There are God like records from places other than there but in North America we simply do not hear of them yet...multiculturalism will change that in the future.
It was dissappointing to be told about the beer...I shall suffer terribly, and no one has suffered as much as I have ....anyone got any other good beer names? Duff and Quahog have also been copywrited.
This was a good discussion Niss, but I wouldnt post to much more....If the big guy is really a dick and has the powers of Santa Claus , he knows now you have doubts...and you know where that will lead.....just saying is all.
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