Occupy Wall Street? Nutbars.

[The Old Fogducker]

Oops ... your subject matter ignorance and personal bias is showing Sooley ... he's not "a Fox guy" ... which in your lexicon is a derisive term. David Ramsey is a successful broadcaster and financial guru, heard on approximately 450 radio stations.

You simply don't like the tasteful, call by call factual refuting of the twisted viewpoint of the "Occupy blah, blah Street" group who for marketing purposes, have self identified as "The 99%"

The Old Capitalist Fogducker .... (not quite in the 1% yet, but after 45 years of working, I'm not hurting, and I'm not giving any to you just because you're unhappy and want some.)

[Beefitarian]

OFD you call other people ignorant then say you're "Not quite in the 1%." I know I'm doing well, I even went flying again a few times so perhaps I should be happy to be in the top percent of people wealthy enough to be fat but I am aware of the rather large spread bettween us and the top 1%.

Carry on.

[Sulako]

OFD, my fine muskrat, I have a couple of things to say: First of all, don't put words in my mouth. Secondly, I am not ignorant on this subject - I have formed my opinion after reading a variety of sources, and it's clear to me which people in this discussion are reading information to learn, and which people are only interested in reading information that reinforces their current beliefs.

That being said, I owe you an apology, sort of - Dave isn't a Fox News guy any more - he was axed from the Fox Business network last year - "He possessed the lethal combination of lacking the charisma and warmth to carry his own television show combined with the delusional arrogance to think he was the next Dr. Phil.”

He does have some sound financial ideas though - I like that he advocates buying things with cash instead of credit, and he does have some simple financial tips that do work for people, though he could probably go a little easier on the fundamental Christian evangelism that he injects into it.

I do like that he created a foundation for the purpose of working with other non-profit organizations (such as housing initiatives, work to success projects, domestic violence shelters, drug and alcohol recovery programs, crisis pregnancy centers, youth outreaches, and high schools) to help others become financially literate.

Then again, he did file for bankruptcy after over-leveraging himself and defaulting on more than a million bucks in loans...

Anyway, let's look at what he says:

1. He's upset that the Occupy movement seems to have vague goals. I start to tune him out when he says "The whole group is just coming across like a bunch of jacked-up, jobless, wannabe hippies." because that's absolutely not the case, and because he's ignoring the actual message they are sending, which is "The system is broken for 99% of the people. Oh yeah, and how come nobody from Wall Street has been prosecuted for the financial meltdown"

2. He then points out one of the things the Occupy movement is stating: No government bailouts, ie corporate welfare. I agree, and I bet you do too. Strange he first says they have no goals and then summarizes one of the goals, but whatever.

3. "Down with corporate greed". He gets it wrong again. Nobody is saying that corporations don't have a right to make an honest buck. See how I highlight the word honest? That's not what happened on Wall Street, and that's kind of the crux of the whole matter.

4. "Wall Street is Evil" see point #3. He also loses me when he compares the Occupy protesters to 'ignorant jungle natives' - you can imagine why that's not cool.

5. "Wealth redistribution is the answer" Again, see point #3. A better term might be "take back the wealth that Wall Street stole from hard-working people".

6. "Celebrate the Land of Opportunity" - America used to be that, but the system has been perverted so that 99% of the people don't even have a fair chance of making it rich because they are stuck in a broken system, overseen by people with no interest in changing it.

See, I read stuff from a variety of sources - he just happens to get it wrong

[Shiny Side Up]

The Old Capitalist Fogducker .... (not quite in the 1% yet, but after 45 years of working, I'm not hurting, and I'm not giving any to you just because you're unhappy and want some.)

I always find it interesting that people are under the illusion that they are working within a capitalist system. Its also amusing that someone who is in a reasonably well off position is more afraid that the 99% is going to come take some more of their wealth, but has no fear that the 1% is going to snatch it from them. Unfortunately they usually have to learn the hard way how the system really works.

I think in all my time in the workforce, out of at least twenty or so different companies and corporations I worked for only two have been operated under any sort of capitalist ethic, both of which I would say also have been the best places to work for, and probably not by coicidence realitively small companies - litterally mom and pop operations. Capitalism operates under the premise that competition is good and hard work is rewarded. So far those two workplaces - both with only 30 to 40 workers at each have held true to that. The rest I quickly realised operated under a bizarre system which one might only call corporate slavery or serfdom. Hard work was never recognized, workers were really only motivated to work just hard enough to not get fired. Oddly enough where art imitates life the movie Office Space wasn't far from the truth. In many cases causing trouble or stirring up shit was the surest (in some cases only way) to get farther along. Competition was also absent from these companies - there was really no effort to out do the competition by doing a better job. Competition was mostly engaged in by who could screw their own workers more so as to create more profit. Unpaid overtime and substantial lack of workplace safety were often the order of the day, or in some cases just plain not paying the workers - something that soon dispelled my foolish notion I grew up with that if I worked hard I would get ahead, that only holds true if you're working for yourself.

The 1% can f*ck you over faster than you can say "hoochimama" when they want to. If you don't believe it, it just hasn't happened to you yet. The 99% might want another 1 or 2 % more tax out of you to pass around and generally make it better for all of out there. The 1% want everthing you got.

[The Old Fogducker]

My comment regarding your ignorance was with respect to broadcasting, media, and specifically Dave Ramsey.

You've formed your opinion with respect to the demonstrators ... and more power to you. I'm just diametrically opposed to their position, which has all the appearance of advocating a socialist system where they expect the government to redistribute wealth .... so if they are in favour of that, it smacks of Communism to me.

So, anyway Sulako, I'll need to be careful from here on out in the thread, because I'll be issued "a strike" for not being a Politically Correct member of the board and I'll end up perhaps banned like other prominent posters who have expressed differing opinions from yours over time.

So Sulako ... I'll dutifully grovel and snivel to avoid persecution in your capacity as a moderator ....

Gee Mr Sulako ... you're right. In all my years of studying and reporting on human nature, I've never met anyone as insightful as you.

Those protestors in "Occupy Toronto" have a really good grip on reality, and I sure hope they smash some windows, start some fires, fight with some cops, smoke lots and lots of weed, take over some banks and drag bankers into the streets and behead them, just like Roseanne Barr has advocated.

[Sulako]

So Sulako ... I'll dutifully grovel and snivel to avoid persecution in your capacity as a moderator ....

OFD, c'mon now - that is not accurate: I have never, ever issued a strike to someone because they held a differing opinion. As part of my ideology, I firmly believe that as long as a person follows forum rules (eg no hatred, no spamming, no outrageous douchebaggery etc) they can post whatever their heart desires, assuming they are willing to back it up. Your opinion is welcome here, but don't be surprised if you get called on it

Now how about the points I made wrt Mr. Ramsey's argument? Isn't that what we were talking about? I mean, I actually took the time to read up on your man and refuted his points...do you have anything to add to that other than name-calling the protesters again? 'cause that was boring halfway down the first page of this thread

[Beefitarian]

no outrageous douchebaggery etc

Rats, I better pack my hockey bag.

[Rockie]

I'm just diametrically opposed to their position, which has all the appearance of advocating a socialist system where they expect the government to redistribute wealth .... so if they are in favour of that, it smacks of Communism to me.

To summarize.

1. You're diametrically opposed to stopping massive corporate fraud and prosecuting the people responsible.

2. You diametrically oppose regulations to prevent the kind of abuse of the system that caused the worldwide economic meltdown a couple of years ago.

3. You're diametrically opposed to people who cannot afford but were nevertheless forced to bail out billionaire fraudsters expecting their money back.

4. You're diametrically opposed to a society where everybody can get health care and earn a living wage.

5. And as if that's not enough, you are hoping the protests turn violent.

Those protestors in "Occupy Toronto" have a really good grip on reality, and I sure hope they smash some windows, start some fires, fight with some cops, smoke lots and lots of weed, take over some banks and drag bankers into the streets and behead them,

You're definitely a strange one Mr. Grinch.

[azimuthaviation]

not quite in the 1% yet, ...after 45 years of working

Maybe time to try a different strategy?

and I'm not giving any to you just because you're unhappy and want some.

If you work another 45 years your taxes will never make you even with what the government spent on the 13 years of free education and lifetime of free healthcare on you. If you reimbursed all those taxpayers who gave you their money when you "wanted some" you wouldnt be left with very much now would you?

[azimuthaviation]

Well I guess to be fair I guess you do pitch in quite a bit on excise taxes on all that booze you drink, maybe youll be even in 35 years

[The Old Fogducker]

Anyway, let's look at what he says:

1. He's upset that the Occupy movement seems to have vague goals. I start to tune him out when he says "The whole group is just coming across like a bunch of jacked-up, jobless, wannabe hippies." because that's absolutely not the case, and because he's ignoring the actual message they are sending, which is "The system is broken for 99% of the people. Oh yeah, and how come nobody from Wall Street has been prosecuted for the financial meltdown"

2. He then points out one of the things the Occupy movement is stating: No government bailouts, ie corporate welfare. I agree, and I bet you do too. Strange he first says they have no goals and then summarizes one of the goals, but whatever.

3. "Down with corporate greed". He gets it wrong again. Nobody is saying that corporations don't have a right to make an honest buck. See how I highlight the word honest? That's not what happened on Wall Street, and that's kind of the crux of the whole matter.

4. "Wall Street is Evil" see point #3. He also loses me when he compares the Occupy protesters to 'ignorant jungle natives' - you can imagine why that's not cool.

5. "Wealth redistribution is the answer" Again, see point #3. A better term might be "take back the wealth that Wall Street stole from hard-working people".

6. "Celebrate the Land of Opportunity" - America used to be that, but the system has been perverted so that 99% of the people don't even have a fair chance of making it rich because they are stuck in a broken system, overseen by people with no interest in changing it.

See, I read stuff from a variety of sources - he just happens to get it wrong

Ok Sulako ... lets examine your opinion ... opinion, not fact.

1- 1. He's upset that the Occupy movement seems to have vague goals. I start to tune him out when he says "The whole group is just coming across like a bunch of jacked-up, jobless, wannabe hippies." because that's absolutely not the case, and because he's ignoring the actual message they are sending, which is "The system is broken for 99% of the people. Oh yeah, and how come nobody from Wall Street has been prosecuted for the financial meltdown"

From my perspective, they do indeed have vague goals ... I've seen the protestors interviewed calling for everything from income redistribution, to free tuition, to legalization of weed, to protesting that Jews control the media and banking system, to advocating active overthow of the capitalist system, high unemployment, lack of opportunity, high debt loads due to student loans, globalization, dirty oil, executive compensation rates, corporate greed, individual greed, pollution, global warming, government incentives for companies to provide jobs ... which you choose to call Corporate Welfare .... and the list appears endless with every gripe the protestors can come up with for the sole reason of being able to take to the streets yelling and screaming about generally just being pissed off.

Visually, there is very, very little to identify the "Occupy ... " from the same Bozos that were in the streets in 1968 in support of everything from unilateral disarmament, to The Weathermen, The Students For a Democratic Society, The Sudanese Liberation Army, the Red Brigades, the Viet Nam war, greater freedom at universities, feminists that hate men, abortion rights, .... and again, the list seemed endless.

You've decided to take away the one aspect which suits you in expecting corporations executives dragged away in chains.

2- 2. He then points out one of the things the Occupy movement is stating: No government bailouts, ie corporate welfare. I agree, and I bet you do too. Strange he first says they have no goals and then summarizes one of the goals, but whatever.

Those are some things that some of the protestors are saying ... there is no cohesive set of goals that comes across clearly. The fact that he debunks the concepts espoused by some of the protestors is the way he chose to do the radio program.


3- 3. "Down with corporate greed". He gets it wrong again. Nobody is saying that corporations don't have a right to make an honest buck. See how I highlight the word honest? That's not what happened on Wall Street, and that's kind of the crux of the whole matter.
Well, Sulako, that's your take on it ... and you're certainly entitled to take away from the experience whatever you chose to digest. Its not unlike six persons witnessing a criminal act, and describing wildly differing experiences when questioned by the detective investigating the matter. You take away something different than did Dave Ramsey .... his business is money and he's damned good at it. You say "nobody is saying corportions aren't entitled to make an honest buck" ... well, that's not what I see in the crowd.

4- 4. "Wall Street is Evil" see point #3. He also loses me when he compares the Occupy protesters to 'ignorant jungle natives' - you can imagine why that's not cool.
Well, cool to say it or not, their ignorance of the economic system is stunning and they come across like they've attended a MBA course taught by Cheech and Chong. The considerable interviews I've seen are strident "Wall Street produces nothing, ... they are nothing but greed driven, etc." ... Saying they are buffoons is a statement of the way he sees it, and I share that observation.

5- 5. "Wealth redistribution is the answer" Again, see point #3. A better term might be "take back the wealth that Wall Street stole from hard-working people".
I have nothing to say on that statement of yours Sulako ..... the whole movement seems to be saying ... somebody else has it, and I want it. Taking to the streets and rioting will bring forward a leader who will promise them things in the same way that Chairman Mao, Joe Stalin, etc came forward .... Straight out of Saul Alinsky's "Rules For Radicals."

6- 6. "Celebrate the Land of Opportunity" - America used to be that, but the system has been perverted so that 99% of the people don't even have a fair chance of making it rich because they are stuck in a broken system, overseen by people with no interest in changing it.

Broken for whom Sulako? There are lots and lots of people who are doing well because they are persistent, and pick themselves up over and over again until they start to get traction. It likely comes a s a huge surprise that the real world is tough, and the first time somebody takes a pop to the chops, they run away crying and that's the end of their attempts to get something from life.

The aviation community has its similarities .... some people who find that first flying job and then progress to seniority number one at a major airline, or become the owner of a small airline. Some people have to travel back and forth across the country before they get the first break .... many, when faced with the concept of driving even a few hundred miles to find a flying job, decide its not worth it ... so what's the difference with the protestors in the "Occupy" movement? As much as you advcate that this an uprising based upon the mass indignation that no executives were jailed, it just seems to be a bunch of radicals who don't realize they are anarchists, looking for a bit of fun.

Regarding Dave Ramsey's declaration of banruptcy in his 20's ... something your Wikipedia search perhaps didn't mention ... when he got back on his feet financially, he repaid everyone he owed money because of his intrinsic sense of right and wrong.

Understand Sulako .... what both of us have written is opinion based upon interpretation, and we believe very different things.


OFD

[niss]

Things like that cartoon piss me off. Instead of intellectually debating the points (which for the most part I think OFD did in his last post quite well) most people in his camp just try to discredit the protestors. A bunch of whiny hippies, etc.

I don't think that anyone other than the people who made out like gangbusters in the meltdown can really look at the system and say it is fine.

I understand if there is much you oppose about the mentality of the people protesting, but I know there has to be parts you agree with. Perhaps instead of trying to discredit the whole thing altogether, you recognize the flaws in the system where you perceive them to be, and agree that these need to change, rather than say "these people are stupid so obviously the people they are protesting against are right".

Why is it that absolutely everything has to be reduced to partisanship?

You've formed your opinion with respect to the demonstrators ... and more power to you. I'm just diametrically opposed to their position, which has all the appearance of advocating a socialist system where they expect the government to redistribute wealth .... so if they are in favour of that, it smacks of Communism to me.

How can you live in Canada and be so fundamentally opposed to Socialism? Why is that such a strong buzz word? In the states (and it seems to be getting that way here) to be called a socialist is worse than being tagged a pedophile.

We have socialist leanings! Face it! That is part of living in a 1st world country! Education is required and paid for to a certain age! Law and order is maintained and paid for by the government! In Canada and most of the developed world healthcare is paid for by the taxpayers. So unless you refuse to go to a Canadian hospital and out of principal went across the border just so you can pay your own way for health care, you are sucking at the socialist teat.

How is this worthy of the McCarthy-sh tag of "SOCIALIST!!!!!!!"?

[azimuthaviation]

Immunity and impunity in elite America: The top one per cent of US society is enjoying a two-tiered system of justice and politics.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/op ... 67970.html

[The Old Fogducker]

Here's an interview with one of the organizers of the OWS movement, Mr Harrison Schultz. He's being interviewed by Al Sharpton .... Mr Schultz admits that there is no central thrust to the movement except revolution.

http://youtu.be/7m9MkbybyU4

Here's a highly rational individual in "The Movement."

http://youtu.be/XOkMizZjhBI

Here's one for redistribution of wealth .... she quit her job to come and protest unemployment and getting things from the government ...

http://youtu.be/osvQ4XXusZ4

Here's one that thinks we do away with currency all together .... and get rid of companies he would select and identify as being worthless to his version of society.

http://youtu.be/SaZF4FJ2eUA

Now its time to hear from a self-identified Anarchist ... advocating a stateless, classless world society. Of course, she states "the rich" need to have their wealth taken away. "..they need to be drained." Presumably, we would all be as docile and self sustaining as a herd of cattle roaming the grasslands of the prairie as it it existed 300 years ago. Without the predators of course.

http://youtu.be/j5LNpq4QJsE

Now, lets see how Russian TV is covering the OWS crowd ... this one what Sulako advocates ... the indignation over the banks. This whole group of 1968 peace and love hippie wanna-bes is complete with a 9 year old brought to a demonstration by a civic-minded parent.

This story on Russia TV could come straight out of the days of Radio Moscow, "broadcastng the real truth from the Soviet Union." The only difference is the American accent rather than the heavy Russian accent of the good old Radio Moscow days.

http://youtu.be/cG_TKAJyV6k

I could go on for hours posting interviews like this, but enough is enough for now.

Foggy ... the capitalist

[HS-748 2A]

Nothing from Sun News in there Foggy ~ I'm disappointed. What does Ezra have to say about all this?

Few could put it better than him.



'48

[Rockie]

Foggy

If a homeless person tries to tell you in a very inarticulate way you're about to get squashed by a truck you wouldn't get out of the way simply because of who's trying to tell you. You don't hear messages, you only look at the messenger.

[The Old Fogducker]

748 ... there are those among us who at the very mention of SUN TV or Fox News Channel immediately tune out .... not unlike my immediate negative bias toward anything .... and I do mean .... anything, that comes with a link the Huffington Post, the Daily Kos, or Media Matters.

This time I decided to show my diverse reading and viewing sources ..... just so the left of centre (or left of reasonable) will be enticed to give the facts of the message some creedence.

Why I even choked down my pride and listened to some left wing idiot ... err, ..... I mean a well read, erudite person with an opposing viewpoint on my satellite radio for about 45 minutes last evening. I almost puked into the back of my mouth numerous times, but I listened .... well no, I guess I didn't actually listen, it was more like "monitor their transmission for dissident anarchist demonstration inciting content" the same way I used to listen to Radio Peking .... and actually, the thrust of the programming was quite similar, but with a different accent.

The Old Shortwave Monitoring Fogducker

[Rockie]

Foggy ... the capitalist

You're no capitalist. If you were you would understand there is a premium charged for bailing out the financial industry and the people who gave that money require payment. You just don't understand the terms because it can't penetrate the thick layer of bias surrounding the rational part of your brain.

[The Old Fogducker]

I love you Rockie .... (not in a physical way of course) .... as Seinfeld would say .... "not that there's anything wrong with that."

You provide me with great entertainment in the same way that watching "I Love Lucy" used to entertain my parents.

Foggy

[Rockie]

Likewise. Because of you I don't have to watch SunTV for all that it has to offer, and I need only look at your avatar for a visual of who I'm addressing and the judgement he brings to the discussion.