HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

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HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by I WAS Birddog »

:o)

Now that I have your attention...riddle me this.
How can a company with a fleet of aircraft over 12,500lbs, 2 crew, on scheduled flights into major airports 7 days a week yet still operate under 703 rules for the benefit operating under skeleton pilot staff working 15 hour days...6/7 days a week?

Because I tell ya...every time I go to work and cross paths with them and witness how exhausted these pilots look, I gotta wonder if these 20 something year old pilots are at this state of tiredness...how safe is it when they can't even now rely on their flight experience to fall back on?

If something happens (and close calls have occurred in the past) don't say you weren't warned. Pay attention! Your SMS has failed...and not by a little.

I'm hoping nothing happens and that I will be ridiculed for posting this, because all the guys at this 703 freight company are amazing pilots.
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by ZBBYLW »

I think I know the company that you are talking about. The company itself does not give a rats ass. If you look at how much they pay their pilots it gives you a sense that they want monkeys flying for them. I know some of the guys there are good guys but that is just a fluke for the company rather than them attracting good pilots. I bet that if you were to "dare" SMS fatigue you would be a) the whipping boy and b) told that it meets CARs requirements.

Some companies will take issues like fatigue seriously. Others just care about the $$.
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by flyincanuck »

Right on!!!

Wake up TC!
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by Gorgons »

Its a very simple answer... if they are 703 there is no requirement for them to have SMS, its only mandated for 705 carriers.
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by Liquid Charlie »

We have to assume they are running with in CARs so this just points out even more that FTDT is dangerous in Canada as it is defined by CARs and needs to be fixed -- there should be no economic considerations on this subject - just get it done and then everyone needs to adjust - likely means more jobs and in our defense more collective agreements -- it pisses me off that companies claim safety will put them out of business -- they should be gone -- !!!!
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

Usually you can post something like this and I can use some deductive reasoning to figure out which company it is. In this case, however, I am ashamed to say that I can think of more than one, two, or three that are in this exact same situation. That's a great commentary on this industry in itself.
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Last edited by CL-Skadoo! on Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by Colonel Sanders »

It is indeed bizarre that you are expected to fly sick, exhausted, with low blood sugar and de-hydrated. The cumulative detriment of the above to your performance in the cockpit is at least as bad as a BAC of 0.08 or higher. And, everyone's happy with that :shock:

However, if you are perfectly rested and healthy and have a glass of wine with dinner before you go flying, you are an evil person and you will go to jail.

Monty Python couldn't have written any better fiction, in their prime.
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by iflyforpie »

So we should transfer all authority over aviation in Canada to the Ministry of Silly Walks?
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by trey kule »

It is indeed bizarre that you are expected to fly sick, exhausted, with low blood sugar and de-hydrated.
It is just as bizarre, in my opinion, that any pilot would fly sick or exhausted.

Bad companies...Bad.... Useless TC...useless.....Why is no one mentioning pilots that are willing to work exhausted, sick, 15 hour duty days, seven days a week.....because they are just as much of the problem as everyone else....

Oh yeah, I forgot..Build hours so they can get on to the next job....poor pilots. Just trying to get ahead so prostituting themselves to do dangerous and illegal things makes them a victim.

These pilots are not victims. They are useless pieces of crap willing to endanger themselves, people on the ground, and in the planes with them......and they dont even have the backbone to stand up and walk away...just whine that its all transports fault.

If your company is demanding you do something you know is dangerous...Leave...Dont whine about lack of jobs, and then keep on doing dangerous things...That is how companies get away with this.

If anyone has read the threads over the years here, there are enough examples of pilots whose luck ran out working for these companies, and while everyone cried victim, they and their passangers were hurt and died.....because they choose to fly.
When the dust settles it is the pilot's decision that they were safe to fly.. And no amount of finger pointing is going to change that.

Maybe this situation would get resolved much quicker if instead of coming on here and calling Transport "punk assed bitches", when you see those pilots dragging around, you tell them how dangerous what they are doing is, and to smarten up and refuse to do it before they bend something...
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by jacek_flying »

Not really sure if the rules here permit disclosing specifics, but just wondering which carrier is being talked about? I cant help but wonder if this is so well known to all here if a annonomys phone call might not do the trick?

Perhaps someone could kindly post the name of the carrier :)
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by Rowdy »

me thinks there is a link in the sky that could put you onto which company it may be :wink:
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by Cat Driver »

I cant help but wonder if this is so well known to all here if a annonomys phone call might not do the trick?
Who exactly would you phone to solve such a problem?
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by Changes in Latitudes »

Cat Driver wrote:
I cant help but wonder if this is so well known to all here if a annonomys phone call might not do the trick?
Who exactly would you phone to solve such a problem?
Exactly. Give em a call and make sure they get your name. Then watch your career do fun things.
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by cgzro »

I think you will have more impact if you target the insurance companies since they likely see the cost of safety more clearly than anybody. They are the ones taking the huge gambles on risk/reward. Why not go directly to the people that set the insurance costs and present material at actuarial schools or conferences?

After all, when a teenager wants to get a souped up honda civic, its not the speed limit that stops him from having an accident .. its the $2000/yr insurance premium that 99% of the kids can't afford that keeps the death toll down.
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by Bobby868 »

I’m the first one to say pilots take responsibility for your own actions; however in this case I think it is 95% the regulation that’s at fault and not the pilots themselves.

It’s one thing for a pilot to say no to something that is clearly breaking regulations; overweight loads, flying below minimum etc., It’s completely another to say no to something that is well within the limits.

I‘m confident that 99% of the pilots out there that are suffering from fatigue are well within the TC regulated duty times.

Now let’s put this in context, every study carried out says fatigue is the equivalent of being drunk. So you have a pilot with reduced mental capacity / judgment and now you’re asking him/her to make decision not to fly even though no regulations are being broken.

Fatigued pilots are often the young, new, inexperienced pilots, in new jobs, so they aren’t feeling the most secure to begin with. They aren’t the best paid and more often than not their salary is based on mileage. So here you have a young, insecure pilot who just moved across the country to start a new job, they are financially strapped due to the costs of relocating and dismal wages. And you’re asking them to tell their employer they aren’t going to fly the plane full of waiting passengers not because of any regulations they are breaking but because of how they “feel” when we’ve already agreed that they are impaired so knowing how they “feel” isn’t an accurate assessment in the first place.

This is much like setting a speed limit on a road of 150km/hr. Then getting a young new driver drunk, handing him a set of keys to a bus full of people and telling him he could say no but if he does he definitely won’t get paid today and he may not have a job tomorrow.

Sure a bit of the decision to fly fatigued is based on wanting to build hours but again when you’re impaired you can’t expect people to make sensible decisions.

I don’t put too much of this on the shoulders of the employers either. When bad company (A) has 5 pilots and works them to the max duty times and good company (B) has 8 pilots and works them at more reasonable duty times it’s just a matter of finances before all the good company (B) types are no longer able to be competitive and they either start migrating to bad, but still legal practices or they lose out completely to the completion.

I know of a very good pilot, responsible and mature who went to work for a new company. They ran crazy duty times. He was new to the company, learning a new plane, stressing about sim, check rides, getting his family moved all the while flying, flight planning, load, unloading, IFR, new flying area, 14hr days, to the max duty days per month. There was no down time for lunch, coffee breaks etc. It was go and go freeking hard. The first time he called in fatigued they weren’t happy but said they understood. When the fatigue started to build again he made a couple of minor errors, nothing serious but when he discussed them with management and suggested fatigue played a role they first told him to suck it up and then the next morning called him in and fired him.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say fatigue impairs judgment and then say now make sensible decisions when all the laws, rules and employers are saying you’re just being a pussy.

TC needs to wake up and realize they are sanctioning drunk / impaired flying with 14hr days, 3 weeks straight.
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Last edited by Bobby868 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by Colonel Sanders »

TC needs to wake up and realize they are sanctioning drunk / impaired flying
I doubt they care. Couple of thoughts:

1) Moderators: this is too important a topic for Misc. Could
someone move it back to General, perhaps renamed with a
more serious title?

2) For people stuck in this situation, who don't have the resources
to walk away: learn to catnap. Anyone who's had a kid will understand
sleep deprivation, and the importance of naps during the day to try
to make up for it. I know it's not legal to nap, but I'd rather be sharp
at the end of a leg and not make a mistake during the 10th approach
of a 14 hour day. Remember that TC doesn't care if you fly exhausted
with the performance in the cockpit of a drunk - it's up to you to find
the time to get the rest you need.
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by iflyforpie »

Bobby868 wrote:I’m the first one to say pilots take responsibility for your own actions; however in this case I think it is 95% the regulation that’s at fault and not the pilots themselves.

It’s one thing for a pilot to say no to something that is clearly breaking regulations; overweight loads, flying below minimum etc., It’s completely another to say no to something that is well within the limits.

I‘m confident that 99% of the pilots out there that are suffering from fatigue are well within the TC regulated duty times.

Fatigue is written into the regulations though. It's the second one in Part 6 right after reckless and negligent operation of an aircraft. Those two are the 'catch all' regulations where you might be following all the other ones to the letter, but not meeting those.
Fitness of Flight Crew Members

602.02 No operator of an aircraft shall require any person to act as a flight crew member and no person shall act as a flight crew member, if either the person or the operator has any reason to believe, having regard to the circumstances of the particular flight to be undertaken, that the person

(a) is suffering or is likely to suffer from fatigue; or

(b) is otherwise unfit to perform properly the person's duties as a flight crew member.
Unfortunately there is no way to measure fatigue except by the pilots themselves, so it becomes highly subjective and can be influenced by other factors (upgrade, work environment, job loss). I have heard so many times 'these duty times are BS, back when I used to fly a blah blah for blah blah and the only time we weren't flying was when the plane was broke down blah blah blah...'

Well, unfortunately lots of people died as a result and regulations were brought in.

But you can't regulate common sense. Regulations are just paper, it is up to you to decide what you need for rest. It might mean lifestyle changes too to fit more rest into off duty times.
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by Road Trip »

With all due respect iflyforpie, and the other person that said just take cat naps, you've never worked for one of these companies that run the 14hr duty day to the extreme. If you had you would understand what's being said here.

There is no time for cat naps! There's no time for rest breaks, coffee breaks, lunch breaks!

I've ramped for one of these companies. The flights were booked solid back to back. 10-15 minute turn around times (this is land, unload pax and freight, load up again and get in the freakin air) for 14hrs solid. There was no down time for paper work, lunch, bathroom breaks nothing. This wasn't a few flights and then a break in flying for 30-40 minutes this was solid. If a flight got cancelled then the schedule was instantly reworked so the pilot had another flight. There was always a week worth of freight back logged so any little hole or cancellation was immediately filled with a freight flight. Pilots who fell behind by even a few minutes were interrogated by the base manager.

There was no time to "manage." There was no time to "cat nap." Heck if a pilot told me he got a cat nap in during the day I would be worried because the only place to nap would have been in the plane.

This is what a lot of people aren't getting. Most who work a 14 hr duty day fly maybe 4 hrs and spend the rest hanging around dispatch talking up the rampies. They often have co-pilots and possibly flight planning crew that takes care of the paper work. This isn't about those gigs. This is about the unbelievable ones where companies are taking the 14hr day and literally keeping the pilot in the plane for the whole 14hrs, three weeks straight. This is single pilot flying, often in poor weather.

I’ve seen pilots who looked more zombie than human at the end of a shift and they kept coming back day after day because that’s what was expected of them. I saw some pretty good muck ups, no one got hurt or killed while I was there but pogo sticks dragging behind planes, pilots getting confused and going to the wrong community. I got an offer somewhere else and moved on before I got to flying with that company but I still have friends there and they are still operating this way.

These fatigued pilots / companies are still flying, they are in the air with you and me and they are all within their legal duty time limits. And heaven forbid if they are cat napping because that means they are snoozing with the autopilot on because there’s no time on the ground to be doing it.
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by Bobby868 »

http://youtu.be/J9yumixcN-o

Ok I tried to embed this a couple of times but couldn't figure it out. Guess I'm getting to old to learn new tricks. Just click on the link.
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Re: HEY....TRANSPORT! PAY ATTENTION ya punk a$$ b!tche$

Post by Colonel Sanders »

if they are cat napping because that means they are snoozing with the autopilot on
I was actually taught that by a (now retired) Transport Inspector.

You don't talk about some things, and you never mention any names.

No one ever naps in the cockpit, got it?
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