Skeptic Confirms GW Real, Arctic Melt Accels, SRM Testing

[Rockie]

I'm going by an amalgam of media reports myself and don't have a reference. They get paid to pour through this stuff however and I have no reason to doubt them. In the past (and maybe in the present) China has been completely obstructionist in the effort to combat GW. There is no doubt in anybody's mind that Canada has taken over that role. Instead of pointing fingers at how other countries are doing the same we should worry about our own country. We are being dragged to the bottom of the heap in world opinion like we never have before, and deservedly so.

And it was not cold war paranoia that killed the Arrow and destroyed everything to do with the program. Get serious. The fate of the Arrow was not decided in Ottawa which is the point of raising the topic in the first place.

[cgzro]

I'm going by an amalgam of media reports myself and don't have a reference. They get paid to pour through this stuff however and I have no reason to doubt them.

Well its worthwhile checking things as much as possible, its easy to spin things. So a bit of digging reveals that China has never been part of any legally binding agreements (just voluntary) while Canada was (but is no longer). China has indicated that they will accept legally binding agreement after 2020 subject to 5 conditions... I don't believe Canada has made any formal statements yet for 2020 however a major difference is Canada has stated they feel even developing countries like China should be treated equally.

So for the past, Canada was in, China was not. For the future. Canada has not said what its conditions (except that they want equality) are and China has stated five conditions (one of which is inequality and another of which is a large pool of funds for developing countries). So your statement 'no more conditions than Canada is insisting upon is untrue', unless you know what Canadas conditions are and if they are identical to China's I'll happily stand corrected but on the surface they appear materially different.

[cgzro]

And it was not cold war paranoia that killed the Arrow and destroyed everything to do with the program. Get serious. The fate of the Arrow was not decided in Ottawa which is the point of raising the topic in the first place.

So the plane had only one type of customer, essentially the US/British and Canadian military and one type of target, a long range nuke bomber. The nuke bombers were replaced by missiles leaving no targets for the plane. The British and Americans decided they did not want to buy the plane. The Canadian government had a choice to fund either missile defence or the Arrow. It does not seem like you need to look for conspiracies to find good reasons to stop spending money. Perhaps there were other nefarious things at work but no utility, no customers, several competing designs and massive costs do tend to cause programs to get shut down. Also according to wikipedia .. and I agree it may be suspect but heck its better than 'get serious' as a debating technique .. the RCMP indicated there were possible russian moles AND later release of russian documents indicated that may have been the case. Anyway my point was not that the cold war paranoia killed the program, the normal buisness drivers killed the program, my point was that likely the mood at the time lead to destruction of documents etc. Anyway I don't see any particular need to look for nasty conspiracy theories to explain things, just events overtaking the technology.

[mcrit]

Canada just pulled out of Kyoto despite China announcing their willingness to meet GHG reduction targets. That officially makes Canada more environmentally irresponsible than China. Canada states they only support an agreement which includes ALL countries in the developed and developing world. Since they know that will never happen they can safely look forward to arctic resource exploitation and the riches it will provide, while maintaining the absurdly transparent lie that they give a s**t about the consequences to the rest of the world.

That may, or may not be the case. Either way, it has nothing to do with this secret cabal of industrialists you insist is killing research into alternative energy.

[Rockie]

That may, or may not be the case. Either way, it has nothing to do with this secret cabal of industrialists you insist is killing research into alternative energy.

So you think the oil industry has neither the motive or resources to prevent alternate means of energy from cutting into their business. They also possess far too much integrity to stoop to such underhanded tactics just to protect their turf.

Is that about right?

I suppose they never funded any of the "think tanks" that deny global warming exists either?

[Colonel Sanders]

I thought governments everywhere were throwing billions of
dollars at anyone who claimed to have any kind of green/alternative
energy solution:

Premier Dalton McGuinty’s Liberals’ fast tracking of green energy projects will cost electricity ratepayers more money in the long run, says Auditor General Jim McCarter.

In his 460-page annual report to the Legislature released Monday, McCarter castigated policies that were a cornerstone of McGuinty’s re-election in the Oct. 6 vote, including Grit claims of 50,000 green jobs being created.

The auditor general found billions of dollars in solar and wind projects were approved without appropriate oversight, including and regulatory and planning procedures.

“While this helped these projects get off the ground quickly, their high cost will add significantly to ratepayers’ electricity bills in the future,” McCarter told reporters Monday.

It's a lot worse south of the border. The above looks like chump
change compared to the hundreds of billions Obama blew on
"green" energy programs.

Given the above, it's hard to take your conspiracy theory
about the suppression of the 400 mpg carburetor by Big
Oil seriously, Rockie.

[Rockie]

The nuke bombers were replaced by missiles leaving no targets for the plane.

Really? You must be reading different history books than me. The TU-95 Bear bomber has been around since 1952 along with the TU-16. Both long range strategic bombers that the entire world, but especially the United States never considered anything but a grave threat back in the day of the Arrow. The USAF Strategic Air Command has always placed heavy emphasis on manned intercontinental bombers with the B-36, B-47 and B-52. In fact during that time there was always a significant bomber and tanker force airborne 24 hours a day ready at a moment's notice to head into the Soviet Union.

The Bomarc missile we replaced the Arrow with was a complete, worthless scam. Nobody believes the fairy tale that strategic nuclear bombers were not a threat back in the 50's except apparently you.

[Rockie]

It's a lot worse south of the border. The above looks like chumpchange compared to the hundreds of billions Obama blew on"green" energy programs.

Read this.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 80,00.html

[mcrit]

So you think the oil industry has neither the motive or resources to prevent alternate means of energy from cutting into their business.

They most certainly have the motive. However, given the number of wind turbines going up and the number of companies doing research into fuel cells, etc it would seem the oil industry lacks the ability or the will to carry out these nefarious plans.

It simply amazes me that you can believe in this cadre of alternative energy assassins despite a complete lack of concrete evidence, yet you deny the existence of a gun confiscation movement even though several such groups have declared themselves to exist. Yes, I know, thread drift. Sorry. I couldn't resist.

[Rockie]

So you think the oil industry has neither the motive or resources to prevent alternate means of energy from cutting into their business.

They most certainly have the motive. However, given the number of wind turbines going up and the number of companies doing research into fuel cells, etc it would seem the oil industry lacks the ability or the will to carry out these nefarious plans.

It simply amazes me that you can believe in this cadre of alternative energy assassins despite a complete lack of concrete evidence, yet you deny the existence of a gun confiscation movement even though several such groups have declared themselves to exist. Yes, I know, thread drift. Sorry. I couldn't resist.

Here's a little quiz to exercise your powers of deductive reasoning:

1. There is a very powerful and well funded lobby in Washington fighting the government's efforts to educate the public on the health risks of smoking. Who do you think is behind that lobby effort?

2. There is a very powerful and well funded lobby in Washington fighting government efforts to implement any kind of gun control, and they are all too successful at it. Who do you think is behind that lobby effort?

3. There is a very powerful and VERY well funded lobby in Washington fighting government efforts to impose regulations on the financial industry. They too are VERY successful. Who do you think is behind that lobby effort?

4. There is a very powerful and VERY well funded lobby effort in Washington fighting any government intitiative to impose limits on GHG emissions. There are any number of supposedly scientific think tanks whose sole reason for existence is to deny global warming of any kind much less caused by human activity GHG's. Who do you think is behind that lobby effort?

Really mcrit, a species as creative and resourceful as we've proven to be countless times can't come up with a viable alternative to oil? What's stopping us do you think?

BTW, when gun confiscation advocates (all 3 of them) acquire the kind of funds, lobbying apparatus and political clout that the NRA, financial industry and oil and gas industry have then you might have something to worry about. Until then I wouldn't be losing any sleep over it if I were you.