Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

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FL-280
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Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#1 Post by FL-280 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:13 pm

ScabRegional looking for time in excess of 5500TT for direct entry captains.
5500TT for 75k....

What world is this company living in???
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#2 Post by FL007 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:17 pm

Meh, lots of people are stuck in their forever job because they won't take the paycut. I know lots of guys/gals that would take that job. At least now there's options for people who want to move around without having to go FO and wait for an upgrade.

I know guys who went FO with jazz with more than 6k hours in hopes of upgrading this past year, because their scale went higher than they had been for the past 8 years.

Also this is not an upgrade, do you want a 3000hr instructor left seat with no time on type/705 experience? Upgrades at SR will definitely be quick for time on type, I'm sure there's less than 4000hr drivers, but there's certainly nobody with experience on type at other airlines like the common dash 8 type that could come in with some experience with the machine at a lower time and excel.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#3 Post by GATRKGA » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:33 pm

Be aware... sky regional will be moving over to a pure seniority based system in the new year. If you came in as DEC today you'd be joining behind 100+ captains and 130 odd some FO's ahead who will be upgrading and keeping you in your current standing, seniority wise. I would imagine this would affect your schedule tremendously. Not sure but we are awaiting details on how all this will play out.

Also with the union around the corner, I would imagine things will likely have to stay as is until the agreement is in place.

Just some things to consider.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#4 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:58 am

GATRKGA wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:33 pm
Be aware... sky regional will be moving over to a pure seniority based system in the new year. If you came in as DEC today you'd be joining behind 100+ captains and 130 odd some FO's ahead who will be upgrading and keeping you in your current standing, seniority wise. I would imagine this would affect your schedule tremendously. Not sure but we are awaiting details on how all this will play out.

Also with the union around the corner, I would imagine things will likely have to stay as is until the agreement is in place.

Just some things to consider.
I was thinking the same thing looking at the posting, pretty sure anyone who grabs this, unless they work it into their hiring agreement, they will likely get burned when the seniority based aspects of Sky Regional come into effect down the road, not unlike Swoop and Westjet.

S.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#5 Post by lownslow » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:50 am

FL007 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:17 pm
Meh, lots of people are stuck in their forever job because they won't take the paycut.
Agreed, and I am the literal poster boy for doing that.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#6 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:09 am

lownslow wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:50 am
FL007 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:17 pm
Meh, lots of people are stuck in their forever job because they won't take the paycut.
Agreed, and I am the literal poster boy for doing that.
If you exceed the minimums and have something to bring to the table, you should never have to take a paycut in any industry....except somehow ours.

Always boggled my mind in the industry that only a few areas pay based on previous experience - and never the right ones.

S.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#7 Post by rudder » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:38 am

Skyregional was previously upgrading FO’s with an ATP and 500 jet hours.

What changed?
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#8 Post by Outlaw58 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:23 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:09 am
lownslow wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:50 am
FL007 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:17 pm
Meh, lots of people are stuck in their forever job because they won't take the paycut.
Agreed, and I am the literal poster boy for doing that.
If you exceed the minimums and have something to bring to the table, you should never have to take a paycut in any industry....except somehow ours.

Always boggled my mind in the industry that only a few areas pay based on previous experience - and never the right ones.

S.
You do realize that it's pilots doing this to pilots right? We have no one to blame for this than ourselves.

We as a group are very vocal, standing on our high horses, pointing out how insane, unfair and inequitable this whole situation is....but whenever one finds himself in a position to do something about it, it's invariably F'yall...my turn to look after myself and round and round the wheel goes.

my 2 cents

58
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#9 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:07 pm

Outlaw58 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:23 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:09 am
lownslow wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:50 am

Agreed, and I am the literal poster boy for doing that.
If you exceed the minimums and have something to bring to the table, you should never have to take a paycut in any industry....except somehow ours.

Always boggled my mind in the industry that only a few areas pay based on previous experience - and never the right ones.

S.
You do realize that it's pilots doing this to pilots right? We have no one to blame for this than ourselves.

We as a group are very vocal, standing on our high horses, pointing out how insane, unfair and inequitable this whole situation is....but whenever one finds himself in a position to do something about it, it's invariably F'yall...my turn to look after myself and round and round the wheel goes.

my 2 cents

58
Agreed, but some of the blame lies on the WAWCON set forth by the majors. Sort of like the telecoms, each one is working hard to undercut the next for profit to the point where the optics make it seem like they are all in bed together.

That effect trickles into the rest of the industry. The pilots that are tricked into the belief that life begins and ends at the majors are the ones I tend to see MOST OFTEN burning bridges to get there, and justify, 'oh I'll take this and that cut to make it happen'.

S.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#10 Post by FL007 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:10 pm

rudder wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:38 am
Skyregional was previously upgrading FO’s with an ATP and 500 jet hours.

What changed?
I've heard there were some new hires down to 1000hrs or so, 1500hrs tt might not cut it left seat on that machine.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#11 Post by Outlaw58 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:36 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:07 pm

The pilots that are tricked into the belief that life begins and ends at the majors are the ones I tend to see MOST OFTEN burning bridges to get there, and justify, 'oh I'll take this and that cut to make it happen'.

S.
Spot on!

And who could blame them?

20 years ago, when everyone in a 705 operation had at least 7 or 8 thousand hours, the seniority system made a lot of sense, there were no bridge to burn and you had to do the time before getting there. But in today's market, that system turns it into a race to the bottom with every pilot with any airline ambition doing whatever it takes to get that coveted seniority number as early as humanly possible. Nothing else matters.

I fear there will be a high toll to pay before the industry as a whole says the buck stops here and give the seniority system a long overdue overhaul.

58
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#12 Post by Cavalier44 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:11 pm

For those who are curious or unaware, I’ve attached a screenshot of the Sky Regional upgrade matrix.

Image

Currently, most of the FOs that are being hired here have between 1500 - 2000 hours total time. A lot of these guys have pretty limited commercial experience - a lot of former King Air/Metro/Pilatus guys jumping ship from the 703/704 world with the hope of making it to mainline. Based on the matrix, they would need two consecutive years of experience on type, plus they’d need to meet the bare minimum of 3500 hours total time. Last year I flew 750 hours - I’m not saying the same is true for every pilot here, but using that figure as an example, a 1500 hour FO needs closer to 2.5 years before they become upgradable according to the matrix.

The problem the company is running into is that they’ve exhausted the pool of upgradeable FOs, and the newly hired FOs aren’t meeting the matrix fast enough to cover attrition. A lot of lip service has been paid by management here in regards to making Sky a “career company”, but the reality is virtually nothing has been done to entice Captains to stay here long term. Pilots here are leaving in droves not just to mainline, but also to Sunwing, Transat, overseas, etc. To my knowledge there have been several FOs who went to the right seat at Transat without even waiting for the quick upgrade here, which tells you how they feel about Sky being a long-term career company.

As far as hiring DECs, I believe that’s now become a product of necessity. Many of the DECs they’ve hired in the past have been former expats returning to Canada as well as a good number of ex-corporate guys, so they’ve been able to get more experienced candidates. With the amount of hiring going on right now throughout the industry, I’m skeptical that they’ll be able to find Captains with the experience they’re looking for at the wages they’re offering, and especially with Sky going to a seniority-based system in January 2019, there’s little incentive to come in at the bottom of the list. Hopefully if there is a lack of interest in DEC positions here, we will finally see some meaningful and much-needed improvements to pay and working conditions to encourage pilots here to stay long-term.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#13 Post by BE20 Driver » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:27 pm

Encore was a seniority based system that required DEC's from time to time. Once the matrix was introduced there, some FO's didn't have enough time and experience for an upgrade and new aircraft were scheduled to be delivered.
Some people found themselves in a funny position where their FO's had more seniority than they did but were still stuck in the right seat. How will Sky be any different than this in January 2019? The seniority will work for PML etc but if a DEC gets hired tomorrow will he not stay in the left seat making that sweet, sweet Captain money?
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#14 Post by Cavalier44 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:52 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:27 pm
Encore was a seniority based system that required DEC's from time to time. Once the matrix was introduced there, some FO's didn't have enough time and experience for an upgrade and new aircraft were scheduled to be delivered.
Some people found themselves in a funny position where their FO's had more seniority than they did but were still stuck in the right seat. How will Sky be any different than this in January 2019? The seniority will work for PML etc but if a DEC gets hired tomorrow will he not stay in the left seat making that sweet, sweet Captain money?
They will be making Captain money with the trade off that they’ll be bottom of the seniority list, therefore they can expect at least two months months at a time of standby (reserve) before they have they have the seniority to hold a block.

Edit: It should be noted that the PML as it previously existed as a seniority-based system no longer exists. With the new online portal for express pilots, priority is given to those who have +2 years of service at their respective express carriers but seniority doesn’t seem to be taken into condsideration as far as I understand it.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#15 Post by BE20 Driver » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:57 pm

I guess in fairness, Encore had socialized bidding where everyone got an equally crappy schedule.
I don't have a dog in this fight but 2 months to get off of reserve isn't really a long time. How long would it take to get to a position where you had a better schedule once you hold a block?
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#16 Post by Cavalier44 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:37 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:57 pm
I guess in fairness, Encore had socialized bidding where everyone got an equally crappy schedule.
I don't have a dog in this fight but 2 months to get off of reserve isn't really a long time. How long would it take to get to a position where you had a better schedule once you hold a block?
For those too junior to hold a block, it’ll be two months of standby, followed by a month with a block of flying, then back into two months of standby, following that pattern. The block of flying is for currency and proficiency reasons. We’re being told that the bottom 20% of the seniority list can expect to be on standby until they’ve accrued enough seniority to hold a block. For a company of 300 pilots, that’s 60 pilots holding standby each month, 30 Captains and 30 FOs.

As for how long it would take to have enough seniority to hold a block - that would be totally dependent on attrition, which I don’t have any exact figures for. If I had to guess I’d say we’re losing 30-40 pilots per year to attrition, mostly Captains, so at most a year before you could hold a block would be my estimate.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#17 Post by GATRKGA » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:08 pm

Keep in mind here DEC applicants. For every 2months reserve, 1 month block rotation you will be doing until you're off standby, there will be FO's upgrading and keeping you in your current slot percentage wise.

I would imagine this will not be a get-jet-pic-quick scheme for any DEC. And if we are talking expats, I don't know if coming home to sit on STY is what you're after. Maybe then it would be worth it.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#18 Post by Victory » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:39 am

These guys will be at Air Canada so fast it will make your head spin. I don't think they're too concerned about seniority at a company that is not even unionized yet. They found a way to get to AC without having to work for peanuts as a regional F/O. You can't really fault them for going for it.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#19 Post by cloak » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:53 am

Nothing can influence pay and working conditions like the market can. Not only hiring DEC, next would be giving credit for part 121 or 705 operations and start the new hires accordingly. Therefore a DEC with over 10,000 hours and 10 years in 705 operations will start at year 10 pay.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#20 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:59 am

cloak wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:53 am
Nothing can influence pay and working conditions like the market can. Not only hiring DEC, next would be giving credit for part 121 or 705 operations and start the new hires accordingly. Therefore a DEC with over 10,000 hours and 10 years in 705 operations will start at year 10 pay.
Are you saying that's in negotiation or a 'nice to have?'

Because that is what this industry needs to attract the right talent.

S.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#21 Post by lownslow » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:09 am

cloak wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:53 am
a DEC with over 10,000 hours and 10 years in 705 operations will start at year 10 pay.
This hypothetical person could still be an idiot. The hard part is safeguarding against that.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#22 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:41 am

lownslow wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:09 am
cloak wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:53 am
a DEC with over 10,000 hours and 10 years in 705 operations will start at year 10 pay.
This hypothetical person could still be an idiot. The hard part is safeguarding against that.
Hopefully filtered out in interviews and sim evals.

S.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#23 Post by DanWEC » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:26 pm

lownslow wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:09 am
This hypothetical person could still be NickyNick. The hard part is safeguarding against that.
There I fixed it for you.
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#24 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:59 am

DanWEC wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:26 pm
lownslow wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:09 am
This hypothetical person could still be NickyNick. The hard part is safeguarding against that.
There I fixed it for you.
**Slow clap** :smt023
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Re: Sky Regional Direct Entry Captain Posting - What a Joke

#25 Post by iflyroads » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:51 am

Any update on the ALPA certification?
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