Emirates

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confusedalot
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Re: Emirates

Post by confusedalot » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:49 pm

Eric Janson wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:14 am
https://voiceofthemarkets.blogspot.com/ ... le-to.html

Good reading for anyone thinking of heading out that way.

You won't read very much of this in the local papers - even PPRuNe is still blocked.
Quite an eye opener. Are the good times over, so to speak?
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Re: Emirates

Post by Eric Janson » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:20 am

From the same website:-

https://voiceofthemarkets.blogspot.com/ ... azine.html

https://voiceofthemarkets.blogspot.com/ ... se-is.html

There are still plenty of construction projects that are partially completed and further work has stopped completely. Saw it with my own eyes last week.

Property prices are falling - it's a new market so nobody really knows the true value of property. Plenty of property on offer from what I have seen.

There is an ongoing Expat exodus - mostly white collar workers.

War in Yemen still ongoing - there will be blowback for the UAE.

PPRuNe still blocked in some locations in Dubai but working normally in others.

The party has been over for quite some time imho. People are only now waking up to reality.
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Re: Emirates

Post by complexintentions » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:08 am

Meh.

The party isn't over because it never was a party. You of all people know that expat life is never a picnic.

I've had lots of friends leave EK, I left myself, but I still know more than a few flying there and they're fine. Still raking in the big tax-free income. Granted, they have great seniority which helps their lifestyle, but no, not everyone is leaving. Emirates rosters are still a grind, but the place is still a great setup for some, and a nightmare for others. Such as it ever was.

When I was there the threat was war between Iran and Israel. Websites were blocked. Expats shrugged and worked around it. Still do.

A construction bust? OOOooooh. Scary. Except, I observed firsthand the GFC in 2008 when property values dropped 60%. Life went on, growth paused and then took off again. It's an incredibly volatile place, that's not new. Boom, bust, repeat. And neither is huge sovereign indebtedness unique to the region. Look around the world. Dubai owes 20b USD to Abu Dhabi - hell that's just one Liberal budget deficit. Ontario public debt - 350b CAD.

Sorry Eric, you're entitled to your well-known personal dislike of the ME but nothing you've stated is particularly remarkable or different. Including using caution approaching ANY expat job.
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Re: Emirates

Post by Eric Janson » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:15 am

complexintentions wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:08 am
Sorry Eric, you're entitled to your well-known personal dislike of the ME but nothing you've stated is particularly remarkable or different. Including using caution approaching ANY expat job.
Well - there's this:-

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47862596

Some interesting links in the BBC article to other 'events' that have taken place in Dubai.

Some more reading (the fact that this organisation exists says more about the place than anything I could post imho).

https://www.detainedindubai.org/

The case studies are quite an eye opener.
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Re: Emirates

Post by complexintentions » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:57 am

You're only proving my point, which was that such nonsense has existed in Dubai for ages, and yet life goes on. I'm pretty sure that the UAE isn't the only place in the world where people are being detained on specious and unjust grounds. Not that that makes it ok, but the fact that you regularly single it out leads me to believe you may be projecting your own bias a tad. :roll:

As keen as you are to be alarmist about Dubai, if I can live there for a decade and not end up in jail, anyone can. :mrgreen:
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Re: Emirates

Post by Eric Janson » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:44 pm

complexintentions wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:57 am
You're only proving my point, which was that such nonsense has existed in Dubai for ages, and yet life goes on. I'm pretty sure that the UAE isn't the only place in the world where people are being detained on specious and unjust grounds. Not that that makes it ok, but the fact that you regularly single it out leads me to believe you may be projecting your own bias a tad. :roll:
It does seem to happen a lot in the UAE doesn't it?

I've made my views on Dubai clear - and explained why. The information I've posted is factually correct - people can decide for themselves whether it has any merit.
As keen as you are to be alarmist about Dubai, if I can live there for a decade and not end up in jail, anyone can. :mrgreen:
Well - at least one of your Emirates colleagues wasn't as fortunate.
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Re: Emirates

Post by mixturerich » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:59 pm

I appreciate all the replies and conversation about Emirates. The consensus seems like it WAS the place to be years ago, but it is no longer, especially given all the alternative opportunities available right now domestically and around the globe.
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Re: Emirates

Post by complexintentions » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:34 am

Eric Janson wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:44 pm
It does seem to happen a lot in the UAE doesn't it?
As keen as you are to be alarmist about Dubai, if I can live there for a decade and not end up in jail, anyone can. :mrgreen:
Well - at least one of your Emirates colleagues wasn't as fortunate.
Oh please.

I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot more people unjustly incarcerated in the US or Canada, particularly if your skin is the wrong colour or if you don't have the means for a decent legal defense. By your logic no one should pursue jobs anywhere. There are no Emirates pilots in jail in the UAE without having broken any local laws. Dubai may have rules and practices you and I find distasteful, but they're hardly secrets. Horse-face lady is already released. I assume the drunk Canadian and UK pilots are still in jail?

Tons of people have done very well as ME expats and even if the numbers are falling, continue to do so. As for "all the alternative opportunities available", I'd welcome a like-for-like comparison to ones that offer what Emirates potentially can. I'm talking about ALL factors, compensation, taxes, cost of living, career progression, type of aircraft and flying, rostering, culture, everything. It would be a short list. The sticking point is that most are unwilling to make the undeniable sacrifices to reap the benefits, particularly as the company seems intent on making itself increasingly less desirable. But the extremes are nothing to breathlessly report as new.

There isn't really anywhere that is THE place to be any more, you find the place that works best for your individual circumstances that is looking for your specific experience and then intelligently manage your affairs.

Best of luck with whatever decision is made.
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Re: Emirates

Post by Eric Janson » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:04 pm

complexintentions wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:34 am

There are no Emirates pilots in jail in the UAE without having broken any local laws. Dubai may have rules and practices you and I find distasteful, but they're hardly secrets.
What about the Captain that diverted and that upset some influential local who was on board?

The influential local had the Captain arrested and he was thrown in jail.

Ed Davidson went there to try and get him released but was told to get lost.

Happened during the time you were there so I'm sure you can add details. It was covered on PPRuNe at the time.

What law did this poor guy break?
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Re: Emirates

Post by complexintentions » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:13 am

Nope, wasn't aware of it on my watch. So I spoke to colleagues still there who've been there nearly 20 years and they don't have any info either. As an aside I haven't heard anything about The Talking Horse in forever, he was such an ass and so despised I'm sure anyone he intervened for would be far worse off!

Thing is, we can both trot out old anecdotes. None of them prove anything. But at least mine are based on direct personal experiences, not third-hand accounts.

When I first arrived I did hear many similar tales where allegedly locals abused their power over expats. For example the rife stories of traffic incidents where blame is placed on the expat unfairly. I say allegedly because in my own experience quite the opposite occurred. I was in a collision from behind while waiting stopped at a red light. The other driver was a young, female, wealthy, traditionally-dressed Emirati (high-end Mercedes coupe, crunched front end). Nightmare scenario for whitey foreigner, right? According to legend I was about to be assigned fault instantly and made to pay for her mistake at best, sent to jail at worst. Everyone "knows" that.

Except, her father showed up in a bit, in full white dishdash, shook my hand and apologized in broken English. Police came, sorted it out, and sent me on my way with the paper to have my car repaired at the other driver's cost. In a week it was repaired (granted my damage was minor) and didn't cost me one fil. Was far more efficient and straightforward than anything I ever experienced in Canada. Truth.

Perhaps I was just lucky. But what I slowly came to realize was that there was virtually always more to the expat "victims" story that they were less forthcoming about. Almost inevitably it would come out from other sources that they had lost their temper in the situation, or been confrontational, verbally abusive or used profanity in the heat of the moment. Big no-no's in that part of the world. Do not show anger, do not raise your voice, do not embarrass them, do not give reason to believe they've lost face. If you do these things it will no longer matter who is "right", it will become who has more wasta and as an expat you WILL have a very bad day. I was calm, polite and respectful with the young driver, her father, and the police and believe me it counts. If having to behave this way offends you, then yes, the ME is probably not the place for you. Things usually end badly there for those with poor impulse control.

In that context I highly suspect there may be a fair bit more to the diversion story than "influential local has pilot thrown in jail for diverting". Given the hundreds of uneventful diversions over the years including a few of my own! Even if it's 100% true it is an absurd outlier and thus hardly a strong way to try and make a point. I reiterate, Dubai jails are not overflowing with innocent expat pilots.

My advice remains, know your environment and adapt accordingly. But I do realize that some minds can never be changed so with that, I shall leave all to their biases to make their own choices! :mrgreen:
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