Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

Moderators: North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako

hamstandard
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:33 am

Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by hamstandard »

With all the layoffs, that are happening, I assume that there will be an avalanche of applications to various few other companies that are still hiring(cargo, bizjet, fire fighting, etc). But I wonder if those companies are going to look at the history of the employment and say to themselves, Why would I spend all this time and money to train someone who will leave on a moments notice to go back to their job that has a seniority number or pipeline to the big airlines when they could hire someone who at least would have to go through the interview process and likely won't have a job available at the main air carriers, potentially for a year or two at the earliest.
---------- ADS -----------
  

tbaylx
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 771
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by tbaylx »

Depends on the company.

Why would Cargojet hire a lower time non jet pilot when they can hire a high time boeing pilot who will have no issues with training or line indoc and can be online in a minimal amount of time? Thye might only get them for 6 months but the spike in demand for cargo might only last that long so they aren't worried that he'll leave when things pick up.

Why would a turboprop operator hire a low time pilot when they can grab a 10 000 hour airline pilot who has disciplined SOP, IFR and handling skills? Sure they eat the training costs but they aren't that high and sure cheaper than failing out a pilot during training or line indoc.

It's going to largely depend on the operation but most companies would be happy to have the experience and stop having to comb through resumes trying to pick someone who may or may not work out and probably was only going to stay long enough to get the time to move on anyways. At least this way they get an experienced pilot who shouldn't have any issues during training and line indoc.
---------- ADS -----------
  

hamstandard
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:33 am

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by hamstandard »

Good points,

It is just that the whole training thing can take 6 months in itself, and you know that certain guys are going to leave at the first chance. I guess it is a case by case thing depending on the company hiring.

One could easily lose their whole groundschool in a few days.....or right in the middle of on the line training. Nice memories for the guy who got to do a few flights on some big metal or a cool bizjet though.

And the guys who was going to move on anyways would still be able to put in a few more months than the guys chomping to get back to their seniority number.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2042
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by AirFrame »

I guess if the company hiring requires a training bond that might mitigate some of the departures...
---------- ADS -----------
  

hamstandard
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:33 am

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by hamstandard »

AirFrame wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:43 am
I guess if the company hiring requires a training bond that might mitigate some of the departures...
True.

But if the goal is to make money by bonds...that could be useful. If the goal is that you need pilots soon or flights could be grounded, it might be a different case.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yycjetdriver
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:00 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by Yycjetdriver »

hamstandard wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:54 am
AirFrame wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:43 am
I guess if the company hiring requires a training bond that might mitigate some of the departures...
True.

But if the goal is to make money by bonds...that could be useful. If the goal is that you need pilots soon or flights could be grounded, it might be a different case.
I can only speak of Westjet info off the top of my head, but there’s wording in the layoff section of the collective agreement that allows a pilot on layoff to delay a recall for up to 24 months should they sign an employment contract while on a layoff. This might be attractive to some pilots for the chance to try something different, while maintaining their “spot in line”.
---------- ADS -----------
  

lostaviator
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:42 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by lostaviator »

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:00 am
hamstandard wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:54 am
AirFrame wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:43 am
I guess if the company hiring requires a training bond that might mitigate some of the departures...
True.

But if the goal is to make money by bonds...that could be useful. If the goal is that you need pilots soon or flights could be grounded, it might be a different case.
I can only speak of Westjet info off the top of my head, but there’s wording in the layoff section of the collective agreement that allows a pilot on layoff to delay a recall for up to 24 months should they sign an employment contract while on a layoff. This might be attractive to some pilots for the chance to try something different, while maintaining their “spot in line”.
You just lose some seniority in the process of deferring.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 847
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

tbaylx wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:23 am
Depends on the company.

Why would Cargojet hire a lower time non jet pilot when they can hire a high time boeing pilot who will have no issues with training or line indoc and can be online in a minimal amount of time? Thye might only get them for 6 months but the spike in demand for cargo might only last that long so they aren't worried that he'll leave when things pick up.

Why would a turboprop operator hire a low time pilot when they can grab a 10 000 hour airline pilot who has disciplined SOP, IFR and handling skills? Sure they eat the training costs but they aren't that high and sure cheaper than failing out a pilot during training or line indoc.

It's going to largely depend on the operation but most companies would be happy to have the experience and stop having to comb through resumes trying to pick someone who may or may not work out and probably was only going to stay long enough to get the time to move on anyways. At least this way they get an experienced pilot who shouldn't have any issues during training and line indoc.
Typically airline mentalities, particularly from pilots who have only seen the airlines, do not bode well for smaller operators. Your 10,000 hour Boeing pilot (while incredibly skilled in a Boeing) isn't used to the concept of self-reliance. Plenty of smaller operators would attest to this (hiring the retired airline pilots), and it rarely pans out well. Sounds great in theory.

Cargojet I'm sure would be happy to have a couple 10,000 hour guys sit in the right seat. You're probably better off collecting EI, and relaxing at home.

No small operator is really looking forward to hiring you, particularly for the short term. What they are excited for is that the music has stopped. They can now start combing through resumes and look at the guys without seniority who might actually stick around.

Food for thought.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by altiplano »

lostaviator wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:33 am
You just lose some seniority in the process of deferring.
I've never heard of a pilot delaying recall losing seniority.

A senior pilot delaying recall is a benefit to a junior pilot.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yycjetdriver
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:00 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by Yycjetdriver »

lostaviator wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:33 am
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:00 am
hamstandard wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:54 am


True.

But if the goal is to make money by bonds...that could be useful. If the goal is that you need pilots soon or flights could be grounded, it might be a different case.
I can only speak of Westjet info off the top of my head, but there’s wording in the layoff section of the collective agreement that allows a pilot on layoff to delay a recall for up to 24 months should they sign an employment contract while on a layoff. This might be attractive to some pilots for the chance to try something different, while maintaining their “spot in line”.
You just lose some seniority in the process of deferring.
Not true, you keep your original date of hire/number on the department list, therefor you continue to build seniority. You will stop accruing YOS for the purpose of pay and vacation.
---------- ADS -----------
  

lostaviator
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:42 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by lostaviator »

Give section 3 a quick read. “Loss of seniority”
---------- ADS -----------
  

Maxpwr
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:12 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by Maxpwr »

That’s not what it says. You don’t just drop off the list for declining recall. It says “in accordance with section 20”...which means you only lose standing in the same way indicated in that section ie: being the junior guy on recall list and declining. Or by more than 120 months have elapsed. You can decline the recall as much as you want without losing seniority as long as there’s a more junior guy for them to go to with the offer. This is pretty standard.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 847
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

tbaylx wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:23 am
Depends on the company.

Why would Cargojet hire a lower time non jet pilot when they can hire a high time boeing pilot who will have no issues with training or line indoc and can be online in a minimal amount of time? Thye might only get them for 6 months but the spike in demand for cargo might only last that long so they aren't worried that he'll leave when things pick up.....
Well wouldn't you know it, Mr. Sugar was listening and heard your pleads. Hope you've got a fresh 767 type, and enjoy Iqualuit.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=138133
---------- ADS -----------
  

GRK2
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 144
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:04 am

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by GRK2 »

I guess if any Rouge 767 Captains are laid off they might be allowed to grab a seat with George's bunch. The question is will the layoffs at AC go that high? Are there any 767/757 pilots in Canada with a valid PPC? I know lots who were at one time, but that was a long time ago. Good luck George, you're an old friend, stay well.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
jpilot77
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 546
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:11 pm
Location: North of YMX

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by jpilot77 »

The add was for both Captains and FOs, so there will be some 767 FOs laid off.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Welcome to Redneck Airlines. We might not get you there but we'll get you close!

bob99
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:12 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by bob99 »

GRK2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:38 pm
I guess if any Rouge 767 Captains are laid off they might be allowed to grab a seat with George's bunch. The question is will the layoffs at AC go that high? Are there any 767/757 pilots in Canada with a valid PPC? I know lots who were at one time, but that was a long time ago. Good luck George, you're an old friend, stay well.
AC can't layoff more than 600 pilots over the next 6 months. So, Captains won't be laid off. There's a lot of interested FOs though.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Hangry
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:05 am

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by Hangry »

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:56 am
Typically airline mentalities, particularly from pilots who have only seen the airlines, do not bode well for smaller operators. Your 10,000 hour Boeing pilot (while incredibly skilled in a Boeing) isn't used to the concept of self-reliance.
I’m sure they plethora of laid off airline guys would fail miserably at your job.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
CL-Skadoo!
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 599
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 6:41 pm
Location: Intensity in Ten Cities.

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

Hangry wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:55 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:56 am
Typically airline mentalities, particularly from pilots who have only seen the airlines, do not bode well for smaller operators. Your 10,000 hour Boeing pilot (while incredibly skilled in a Boeing) isn't used to the concept of self-reliance.
I’m sure they plethora of laid off airline guys would fail miserably at your job.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Actually we’ve had our share that haven’t worked out. Some expect to be spoon fed a little too much and aren’t able to adapt. I wouldn’t paint everyone with one brush, but I have seen these cases a fair bit. Survival of the adaptable.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 847
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Hangry wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:55 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:56 am
Typically airline mentalities, particularly from pilots who have only seen the airlines, do not bode well for smaller operators. Your 10,000 hour Boeing pilot (while incredibly skilled in a Boeing) isn't used to the concept of self-reliance.
I’m sure they plethora of laid off airline guys would fail miserably at your job.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Apologies if it came across inflammatory, it was a response to tbaylx who made it sound like operators should be climbing over each other for the opportunity to scoop up temporary 705 jet talent, when that is in fact not the case, quite the opposite.

Operating without dispatches direct guidance can be a big challenge for many pilots transitioning back to 704 after a lengthy career at the airlines. Seen it time and time again, with occasional exceptions to the rule. No different than me saying I could do your job tomorrow as it's way easier cause dispatch does everything. We know that's not the case. Two different worlds, requiring two different operating mentalities.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yycjetdriver
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:00 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by Yycjetdriver »

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:36 am
Hangry wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:55 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:56 am
Typically airline mentalities, particularly from pilots who have only seen the airlines, do not bode well for smaller operators. Your 10,000 hour Boeing pilot (while incredibly skilled in a Boeing) isn't used to the concept of self-reliance.
I’m sure they plethora of laid off airline guys would fail miserably at your job.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Apologies if it came across inflammatory, it was a response to tbaylx who made it sound like operators should be climbing over each other for the opportunity to scoop up temporary 705 jet talent, when that is in fact not the case, quite the opposite.

Operating without dispatches direct guidance can be a big challenge for many pilots transitioning back to 704 after a lengthy career at the airlines. Seen it time and time again, with occasional exceptions to the rule. No different than me saying I could do your job tomorrow as it's way easier cause dispatch does everything. We know that's not the case. Two different worlds, requiring two different operating mentalities.
Hangry, don’t take his comments personally, the majority of the lifetime corporate pilots are there for a reason they couldn’t get through step one of being an airline pilot..... passing the interview.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 847
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:20 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:36 am
Hangry wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:55 pm


I’m sure they plethora of laid off airline guys would fail miserably at your job.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Apologies if it came across inflammatory, it was a response to tbaylx who made it sound like operators should be climbing over each other for the opportunity to scoop up temporary 705 jet talent, when that is in fact not the case, quite the opposite.

Operating without dispatches direct guidance can be a big challenge for many pilots transitioning back to 704 after a lengthy career at the airlines. Seen it time and time again, with occasional exceptions to the rule. No different than me saying I could do your job tomorrow as it's way easier cause dispatch does everything. We know that's not the case. Two different worlds, requiring two different operating mentalities.
Hangry, don’t take his comments personally, the majority of the lifetime corporate pilots are there for a reason they couldn’t get through step one of being an airline pilot..... passing the interview.
:goodman:
---------- ADS -----------
  

atpilot
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:41 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by atpilot »

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:10 am
tbaylx wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:23 am
Depends on the company.

Why would Cargojet hire a lower time non jet pilot when they can hire a high time boeing pilot who will have no issues with training or line indoc and can be online in a minimal amount of time? Thye might only get them for 6 months but the spike in demand for cargo might only last that long so they aren't worried that he'll leave when things pick up.....
Well wouldn't you know it, Mr. Sugar was listening and heard your pleads. Hope you've got a fresh 767 type, and enjoy Iqualuit.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=138133
I noticed that the other day. We'll probably see a lot more companies asking for type rated contract workers.
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by altiplano »

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:36 am
Operating without dispatches direct guidance can be a big challenge for many pilots transitioning back to 704 after a lengthy career at the airlines. Seen it time and time again, with occasional exceptions to the rule. No different than me saying I could do your job tomorrow as it's way easier cause dispatch does everything. We know that's not the case. Two different worlds, requiring two different operating mentalities.
I still have spent more years figuring it all out on my own in 703/704 than I have spent having my "hand held" in an airliner.

I think the large majority of us did whatever you think you do for a long time before we came here and could adjust without issue.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 847
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

altiplano wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:11 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:36 am
Operating without dispatches direct guidance can be a big challenge for many pilots transitioning back to 704 after a lengthy career at the airlines. Seen it time and time again, with occasional exceptions to the rule. No different than me saying I could do your job tomorrow as it's way easier cause dispatch does everything. We know that's not the case. Two different worlds, requiring two different operating mentalities.
I still have spent more years figuring it all out on my own in 703/704 than I have spent having my "hand held" in an airliner.

I think the large majority of us did whatever you think you do for a long time before we came here and could adjust without issue.
Sounds good.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ayseven
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:17 am

Re: Are recently laid off pilots hireable

Post by ayseven »

I think any intelligent person could see that, but people are just scared their resumés won't sound as impressive as yours. We will be back to requiring 2 lunar landings for decent work again. Sigh...

It is a good time to retrain in something else, just for the hell of it, if nothing else - learn a musical instrument, a new language, brush up on old ATPL/INRAT exam subjects online. It will make you more interesting when you go for the big interviews in a couple of years. Not that any of it ever helped me... Invest in yourself.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Airline Industry Comments”